Affinity for Dissonance

[MikeK]

Hey folks. I’ve recently started exploring the jazz world,and am interested in your thoughts about the affinity for dissonance relativeto other types of music that jazz enthusiasts appear to possess. My frame ofreference is classical, baroque & folk music, which typically consider even 7^thintervals to be dissonant. For many years I avoided jazz because I found it toodissonant, but have recently decided that exposure therapy is the best approach,and in addition to enjoying myself immensely, am finding that my appreciation of dissonance is changing. Minor 7^th chords are now sounding warmish, andmajor 7^th chords are starting to sound poignant. 9th chords can bejubilant, while b9s still cry out for resolution – etc.

I’m interested in your thoughts about what creates tolerance,and even affinity, for the more dissonant sounds prevalent in jazz. I’m aware of an extensive amount of theory that explains the concepts of tension and release, that the listener can be conditioned to accept relatively less dissonance as a type of resolution, and that society's acceptance of dissonance has increased over the centuries. However, I’m wondering about your thoughts on the following:

1. There are physiological and psychological differences among people that influence the amount of dissonance they find pleasing;
2. It’s all a matter of conditioning (or in today’s world, maybe I should say “Dissonance is a social construct”), and with enough listening, almost any amount of dissonance can become pleasing;
3. Those players who focus extensively on the dissonant end of outside playing are mainly focusing on concepts or proving their theoretical chops, and don’t necessarily enjoy the sounds they’recreating.

My intuition and experience tell me that #s 1 and 2 are true, although to what extent I’m not sure. #3 is, well, I don’t know – you tell me.

Many thanks,
Mike

[Rob MacKillop]

For a meaningful discussion, you have to define your terms, and you use a lot of them.

Failing that, in response to your numbered equations:

1. I've no idea.

2. I've no idea.

3. Clearly nonsense, and somewhat insulting. Artists focus on the art, not concepts or chops.

[omphalopsychos]

There’s a good book by Philip Ball called the Music Instinct. It will address the state of academic research on #1 and #2 and it hopefully will also convince you of the absurdity of #3.

[Hep To The Jive]

Ihavenoideawhatyouaretalkingabout

[mr. beaumont]

1. I think so, although what's really at work is what a person's concept of definition actually IS too...for example, I don't hear a maj7 chord as dissonant at all. I hear a 7#5b9 in isolation as dissonant, but I also like it.

2. I don't think so. If anything, the music people are force fed through radio/media is anything BUT dissonant, and I think many people's ears these days do NOT appreciate jazz.

3. Definitely not. But there is no outside without inside.

[pingu]

Good questions

1&2

I think getting to appreciate complexity
(including dissonance) can be conditioned/learned
But only so far ...

I like the way jazz music purposly clashes
then resolves ... and the control of that well by a player can be very satisfying ....

I've been listening for a while now and can
probably tolerate being out for longer

3 I don't think that's right ,
Some stuff sounds mechanical/geometric/mathematical
to me but probably sounds beautiful to
Its creator ...

When asked ....why did you do the
Star spangled banner like that
(assuming it was meant to be subversive I guess)

Jimi just said he thought it was beautiful

Don't know if that helps

[pingu]

1. I think so, although what's really at work is what a person's concept of definition actually IS too...for example, I don't hear a maj7 chord as dissonant at all. I hear a 7#5b9 in isolation as dissonant, but I also like it.

2. I don't think so. If anything, the music people are force fed through radio/media is anything BUT dissonant, and I think many people's ears these days do NOT appreciate jazz.

3. Definitely not. But there is no outside without inside.

Interesting

Can you hear 7#9 as tonic ?
Purple Haze etc
Its got a min 3rd and a maj 3rd

More basically
Do we all hear a Dom7 chord as tonic
as in the blues ?

I 'got' those sounds first time I heard them
and yet they're unstable by nature

Ie there is no stable 'home' place with blues
and blues rock ...
What key are we in ... OK G cool
except we're in G7 really
(So we're in Cmaj ? nope don't think so)
It feels like we can be in the 'key of G7'

In a gut bucket blues , the ' key centre'
that should be 'home' feels slightly unstable

Im starting to wonder about the typical blues/rock
Chords and movements ...
I'll probably start another thread on it

[docbop]

Life is all about balance Yin and Yang, Sweet & Sour, hot & cold, light & dark, and the whole world of opposites that one without the other is boring. So people some tension and release in their lives, just the amount of each varies with individuals and cultures.

Then what you're brought up listening to and how developed your musical ear is plays a part. Like Rick Beato Nuryl program that he used on his son Dylan prenatal to first few years of life. The Nuryl program played very complex music to his son a few times a day, the music included a lot of what you consider dissonance. Today his son is in school has amazing perfect pitch and the most out there music seems normal to his son, but his son is a typical kid for his age and likes all the rock and other music his peers like. So music education expanded his palette instead of limiting it.

I think on your number 3 you are way off base and players and composers whose music contains a lot of what you consider dissonant are the real explorers of sound and rhythm. The ones trying to color within the lines are the one using theoretical recipes to write with. So to me the opposite is true. If you study world music you will find dissonance, polyrhythms, various timbres, and totally different approaches to music that they all consider normal. I would say the people of North America have some of the most blan taste in music compared to the rest of the world, which is funny side the only truly American music is Jazz. Jazz is more popular outside of American because there is more music and art training in schools outside the U.S.

So based on you post do you not like 20th Century Classical music there is a lot of dissonance in the music of Berg, Webern, Schoenberg, Bartok, and on and on. As music move forward more types of sounds are explored classical, Jazz, and progressive just a matter of opening you ears to new things.

or to quote the great American composer George Clinton... Free yo mind and your ass will follow!!!

[ragman1]

Brilliant point.

1. There are physiological and psychological differences among people that influence the amount of dissonance they find pleasing;
2. It’s all a matter of conditioning (or in today’s world, maybe I should say “Dissonance is a social construct”), and with enough listening almost any amount of dissonance can become pleasing;
3. Those players who focus extensively on the dissonant end of outside playing are mainly focusing on concepts or proving their theoretical chops, and don’t necessarily enjoy the sounds they’re creating.

1) Wouldn't know, but highly likely.

2) I'm sure a taste for dissonance is acquired through exposure to it. Putting all the wrong notes in the right places is a great art, assuredly.

3) Again, I wouldn't know; I'm not them. 'Focussing on concepts' might be fine but 'proving their theoretical chops' should be done in private

[mr. beaumont]

Interesting

Can you hear 7#9 as tonic ?
Purple Haze etc
Its got a min 3rd and a maj 3rd

More basically
Do we all hear a Dom7 chord as tonic
as in the blues ?

I 'got' those sounds first time I heard them
and yet they're unstable by nature

Ie there is no stable 'home' place with blues
and blues rock ...
What key are we in ... OK G cool
except we're in G7 really
(So we're in Cmaj ? nope don't think so)
It feels like we can be in the 'key of G7"

Definitely to both.

[MikeK]

Folks - thanks very much for your responses.

Rob - when I refer to dissonance, I mean the amount of tension resulting from notes played simultaneously. As the specific selection of intervals as dissonant or consonant varies widely with musical style and personal preference, I've left that open. Also, note that many of us who play music (myself included) are not artists - merely practitioners on a learning curve.

Omphalopyschos - thanks for suggesting Philip Ball's The Music Instinct. I've gotten a copy, and it looks very interesting. After a look at Chapter 6 (where he discusses consonance, dissonance and harmony), it appears that Ball believes that appreciation for different types and amounts of dissonance is largely learned - which I take to mean there's hope for me yet!

DocBop - I do confess to having a struggle with 20th-century art music composers. I find them conceptually interesting, but higher levels of dissonance are sometimes a barrier to enjoyment. For clarity, when I said "Classical" in my original post, I was referring to the stuff between Baroque and Romantic.

All - I'm getting the message that you believe the dissonant end of outside really can be a nice place. If any of you have stories about how you got to this place (in contrast to having always felt this way), I'd be interested to hear them.

Regards,

Mike

[docbop]

Folks - thanks very much for your responses.

All - I'm getting the message that you believe the dissonant end of outside really can be a nice place. If any of you have stories about how you got to this place (in contrast to having always felt this way), I'd be interested to hear them.

Regards,

Mike

Lots and lots of listening to progressively more complex music till at some point I realized what I was now calling normal was what I used to think of as pushing limits. It's all about educating your ears, like learning to speak a new language whose sounds and articulation are very different you have to develop a ear for it.

[ragman1]

I'm getting the message that you believe the dissonant end of outside really can be a nice place. If any of you have stories about how you got to this place (in contrast to having always felt this way), I'd be interested to hear them.

Well, first, there's a big difference between discordant noise and deliberately placed dissonance. Obviously dissonance is only meaningful with resolution, even if that resolution be imperfect. It's also a question of balance. Too much dissonance, or not enough, is imbalance.

It's not true that no dissonance at all equals boredom. But it might very well be true that too much of it does because the ear tires of it.

Dissonance must never be done for effect, to appear clever. It's there, or should be, only to achieve mood. The mood that, say, classical pieces induce through passing dissonance isn't the same as jazz dissonance, in my view. Jazz dissonance is very mood-related and can last a whole piece. It's also somewhat specialised.

Just one b9 in a piece can change it completely. I mean, whoever would think that the inclusion of the note just above the root of a chord could be anything but excruciating? But the moment you hear it you think 'jazz!'.

I think you suggested in your opener that people have different tolerance levels to dissonance. I'd say that was obviously true although the appreciation of dissonance can come through exposure, and gradually. But, much the same as we have certain definite preferences in most spheres of life, I suspect there are different saturation points. We may, through education - which might be a form of conditioning - come to appreciate the finer points of free jazz or heavy metal, but appreciation is not real enjoyment or love.

That's what your question here is asking, isn't it? Not if one has always had naturally that kind of openness to dissonant sound but if one has arrived at its acceptance as a 'nice place' from originally not liking it.

Don't think me impertinent or personal but I think motivation is important. One may think oneself, through comparison, not very 'with it' because one doesn't really enjoy highly dissonant music and want to become one of the 'with it' people. I think that would be a huge mistake because it would be pretentious and artificial. Some of them, perhaps many of them, may only be pretending to like it! I'm perfectly sure that the love of jazz music has to be natural or not at all. Either one responds to it or one does not. And not all jazz music is highly dissonant by any means; quite the contrary.

There's a subsidiary point about addiction. Pleasure and pain create addiction. One cannot be addicted to beauty but when that beauty is the result of conditioned education then there's the demand for more and more. And modern expression lends itself to that, and not just in music. More and more extreme forms of art, dance, architecture, anything we can think of.

So probably in the end it's about honesty and the emperor's clothes. Personally, I don't like too much dissonance, I think it's noisy, but there are some who thrive on it. I'd say it had its place. In the right place, exquisite. In the wrong place, nonsense.

After all, humour is dissonance too. A good joke depends on an unexpected contrast and not everyone's idea of humour is the same by any means. But I think it's too quick an answer merely to say this whole business is about subjectivity and personal taste. It is, but there's more to it than that.

[Jonah]

It's the matter of culture

[ragman1]

It's the matter of culture

Yes, but we also have to be sensible. Which of us Westerners really understands, say, Indian or Arabian music? We don't really. We might like it in certain circumstances but we don't really respond to it as a cultural native would. We respond to what we know here, which includes jazz music.

But not everybody likes jazz music and I'm quite sure it's not just because they don't understand it musically or intellectually, or know nothing much about it; I think it's just not their cup of tea.

[Jonah]

I think it's just not their cup of tea.

and one's cup of tea is one's culture.


Culture is not only national thing, we all have our families, social background, enviroment we grow up in etc. it all forms personal culture that is kind of integral sensitive personal system of relationships... they way each of us sees, hears, feels, understands the world he lives in.

So for me this

But not everybody likes jazz music and I'm quite sure it's not just because they don't understand it musically or intellectually, or know nothing much about it;

is the same thing as this

I think it's just not their cup of tea.

Actually I believe that unserstanding (real understanding) = appreciation and affection.

Of course there are things about which I say 'I understand it but I do not like it'... but honestly I have to admit that I do not really understand it, I just elaborated some conception about that and assumed I got it and it's ok for me. i put it on a shelf, but I know that I just rejected it for choosing another thing to know and understand better. For me it's enough I feel as the one who makes this choice.
Sometimes we behave as if we did not make this choice, and me too.

So those who love they are those who really understand. I don't even if I say I do.

And I don't believe there's such a thing as taste. It is just a cover to avoid explanations (or self-explanations). Taste reflects culture. Culture is personality, unique, complex, integral.

[docbop]

We respond to what we know here, which includes jazz music.

No, you respond to what limits you put on yourself.

Based on my culture I just be listening to Bluegrass and Irish music, but growing up it do anything for me. I started hearing other music on the TV and radio that excited me and I learned it was R&B and Jazz. So I broke away from my family's culture to find what excited me in music, art, and other endeavors. I from time I was little I was different and lucky my parents didn't try to change me, my aunts, uncles, and cousins weren't so happy. I didn't care was they thought and lived to the beat of a different drum. So it really about the personal exploration and being willing to follow other paths even if they means you walking alone for awhile.

[pingu]

Lots and lots of listening to progressively more complex music till at some point I realized what I was now calling normal was what I used to think of as pushing limits. It's all about educating your ears, like learning to speak a new language whose sounds and articulation are very different you have to develop a ear for it.

Yeah you learned to hear it
but did you like it more too ?

[ragman1]

Culture is not only national thing, we all have our families, social background, enviroment we grow up in etc. it all forms personal culture that is kind of integral sensitive personal system of relationships... they way each of us sees, hears, feels, understands the world he lives in.

Absolutely, I said that. We're conditioned to a particular culture. There's nothing intrinsically bad about it but unless one travels and is exposed to more than that it can become a veritable prison.

Actually I believe that understanding (real understanding) = appreciation and affection.

So those who love they are those who really understand.

Absolutely, that's the whole point.

And I don't believe there's such a thing as taste. It is just a cover to avoid explanations (or self-explanations). Taste reflects culture. Culture is personality, unique, complex, integral.

I wouldn't say that's completely true. I wouldn't say I didn't like a red bedroom or a pink car just because I live in the UK. I wouldn't say I prefer curry to kebab (which I do) for the same reason. I've been to many countries but I don't think that's why I like Marmite!

[ragman1]

No, you respond to what limits you put on yourself.

I don't put any limits on myself. I'm limited naturally in certain areas but that's okay. I mean, I'm never going to be Beethoven but it's not a big problem!

So I broke away from my family's culture

Precisely! That's the whole point, we don't have to be the complete prisoner of any culture.

So it really about the personal exploration and being willing to follow other paths even if they means you walking alone for awhile.

That's all I'm saying.

[docbop]

Yeah you learned to hear it
but did you like it more too ?

It was a little rough at first, but I would tell myself a lot of people I respect like this music so I need to figure out why, or at least figure out why I don't. Know why you don't like something is as important. maybe more as knowing why you do. At least for me.

[cosmic gumbo]

I think dissonance can be a powerful form of expression, and once you can accept something like this tune, other stuff doesn't seem so dissonant, and stuff with little dissonance hardly feels like jazz at all. Albert played at Trane's funeral.

[Jonah]

I wouldn't say that's completely true. I wouldn't say I didn't like a red bedroom or a pink car just because I live in the UK. I wouldn't say I prefer curry to kebab (which I do) for the same reason. I've been to many countries but I don't think that's why I like Marmite!

I'll try to explain more in details what I mean... culture in my opinion is broader thing and at the same time it is all centered to personality (which is not static but living).

So if you like a red bedroom there is definitely something behind it in my opinion (not necessarily the fact that you live in UK) and it's part of your culture in that broad sense.
So the notion of taste here means for me only trying to avoid that analysis (either conciously or not).

(People often feel quite confortable with taste reference because sometimes it's too demanding risky and even unpleasent top really get to the reasons of it.)

Aldo concernign what docpbop says... it's the same thing.. for me it's not expanding your boundaries but being still in the culture (because even if your parents are different but they are supportive for your choices - this is also cultural enviroment that you grow in)... so being in this culture and at the same time to try to keep its notions vivid, breathing, alive.

you see I think culture can be our home, our prison and our universe.

One philosopher said 'frozen sky of ideas' - this is very emlematic how the culture can become a prison.
Imagine you live under the beautiful sky and then suddenly it's broken dome and you see behind it real sky - where does this feel or more reality come from? And how can we be sure that the new higher sky is real too? and that behind it meabe more real sky?
The artist should always at the edge of it im opinion... at the point of maximum control and losing all controls.
He should let himself be cheated with these domes... and then he play with all these ideas as with toys and creat his worlds.

This is the reality and the feel of reality what's more in focus here... I believe human being should always test his sense of reality.
It's kind of balance you know... if you dive too much into the world of conventional ideas you will live in teh fake world adn think it's real (as most people most of the time do).
If you go to deep into trying the reality you will lose all connections with others, all conventional ties, and sense of culture - you'll be insane.

As Peter Bernstein spoke about metronome in his masteclass... using it only to stay sane... not to improve your swing or timiming...
But just to stay sane.. becasue when you are carried away with artistic ideas you may lose the feel of conventional means... but the art is the thing that uses conventional means for uncoventional communication... so you always have to stay in balance...
like rope-walker... you either fall into the world of dead notions and lose yourself, or you fall completely lose from any realtions and lose ability to express yourself...
Art is always trying keep this balance ...

As Ingmar Begman used to say: cheat, lie, fight, run, do whatever is needed but do not let youself be caught in these nets.

[ragman1]

I think dissonance can be a powerful form of expression, and once you can accept something like this tune, other stuff doesn't seem so dissonant, and stuff with little dissonance hardly feels like jazz at all. Albert played at Trane's funeral.

"Ayler disappeared on November 5, 1970, and he was found dead in New York City's East River on November 25, a presumed suicide. For some time afterwards, rumors circulated that Ayler had been murdered, with a long-standing urban legend that the Mafia had tied him to a jukebox. Later, however, Parks would say that Ayler had been depressed and feeling guilty, blaming himself for his brother's problems. She stated that, just before his death, he had several times threatened to kill himself, smashed one of his saxophones over their television set after she tried to dissuade him, and then took the Statue of Liberty ferry and jumped off as it neared Liberty Island.He is buried in Highland Park Cemetery in Beachwood, Ohio."

Albert Ayler - Wikipedia

Or maybe he was a little crazy. Do you want to be like that?

[grahambop]

"Ayler disappeared on November 5, 1970, and he was found dead in New York City's East River on November 25, a presumed suicide. For some time afterwards, rumors circulated that Ayler had been murdered, with a long-standing urban legend that the Mafia had tied him to a jukebox. Later, however, Parks would say that Ayler had been depressed and feeling guilty, blaming himself for his brother's problems. She stated that, just before his death, he had several times threatened to kill himself, smashed one of his saxophones over their television set after she tried to dissuade him, and then took the Statue of Liberty ferry and jumped off as it neared Liberty Island.He is buried in Highland Park Cemetery in Beachwood, Ohio."

Albert Ayler - Wikipedia

Or maybe he was a little crazy. Do you want to be like that?

Trombonist Frank Rosolino played straight-ahead jazz, shot his children and committed suicide. Do you want to be like that?