The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    So either approach works...
    ...but not completely. When I sniffed out another approach I always thought "that's it, it's gonna be the golden ticket". Never was. I don't even trust "play tunes - everything is there" 100% - although it's probably the best one and works. Just doing that gets them going but also the known track gets so damn deep. Need to not focus on one way, mix it up, do everything, something crazy sometimes. Talking to/convincing myself here probably..

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by emanresu
    ...but not completely. When I sniffed out another approach I always thought "that's it, it's gonna be the golden ticket". Never was. I don't even trust "play tunes - everything is there" 100% - although it's probably the best one and works. Just doing that gets them going but also the known track gets so damn deep. Need to not focus on one way, mix it up, do everything, something crazy sometimes. Talking to/convincing myself here probably..
    It's hard to trust any one path. TBH I would be the same... Why should I invest my time in this path compared to another?

    Hopefully there is some congruence in the advice from experienced gigging players here in that you kind of have to do it a lot, and best still under pressure on the bandstand (there is a fundamental difference between performance and practice, needless to say.)

    The info is all out there. However dismissive I might sound, Coker and Cork have written great books. However, as with many educators they are simply boiling down the experiential knowledge of any seasoned musician into information. Cork tries hard to avoid this trap by presenting a teaching system, which I think is amazing, but an attempt to replace something that's hard to come by for many.

    However sunny, for instance, might question my credentials - and he has an absolute reason and right to do so, much of the stuff I post here is actually a mix of my own experiences, observations of veteran musicians and information that comes up in conversation with them. I don't claim to own any of this stuff, and never did, so what ever sunny thinks I'm up to, I wouldn't try to monetise that info either. In fact monetising information is stupid, because it's everywhere.

    On the other hand information of itself is less useful than experience and repeated application of that information thousands of times.

    (For me, teaching, which I do get money from, is not about sharing info per se, but actually giving feedback to someone and advising them on their process... But that's another thread.)

    So, I'll quote Jim Mullen who said to me 'you just have to learn the standards and how to play through the standards' which I think is another way of saying what Bruce said.

  4. #78

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    Yea... personally teaching should know where the end is and how the end works.

    Obviously recognizing what the student really wants and where they might even be able to get...is probable part of the equation.

    All I can say is I've been transposing for years, it's like remembering to plug your guitar in etc...

    Again usually it's not the method of trying to transpose... it other technical problems in one's playing skills.

  5. #79
    I am editing this post to make more succinct.

    I was recently asked by a singer to play (transpose on the fly) Desafinado in C instead of in the written key of F.

    I am not a skilled Jazz guitarist. This is how I chose to approach this challenge. Doing this elucidated what I’ve learned and the giant amount still ahead.

    Desafinado has 7b5, m7b5, 7, Maj7, 7b9, diminished chords, etc.
    I can play such chords in several “textbook” shapes. And, I know that C is the 5 of F. And I know that a 5th is 7 frets away: Next higher string, up 2 frets.

    So I started like this:
    - C is the 5th of F. C is 7 frets up from F.
    I was playing FMaj7 w root on string 6, fret 1.
    So I played CMaj7 with root on string 5, 3rd fret. Next 2 G chords: almost the same technique (D chords on string 5, root on 5th fret).
    - Now the C7 becomes G7, bass on string 4 fret 5.

    This is all I’m capable on the fly.
    But it gives me a surprising, clear, unexpected peek at the instrument’s great potential and my deficiency.

    I suspect an experienced player wouldn’t do exactly this. He would do something I can’t even imagine at my advanced-beginner level. I don’t have the background to do much else on the fly. Practice!

    but, I found this to be an AMAZING exercise elucidating
    - what I know. Jazzy chords in multiple shapes.
    - a practical value of inversions
    - a reminder to keep studying she’ll voicings.

    I could almost transpose F to C on the fly usingvthis method but I fell just short. I wasn’t fast enough.

    Is there a technique or area of study that my sad tale suggests?

    Still, I found this an enlightening exercise showing the potential of the guitar and how much I’ve learned despite being years behind many others.

    I figured such transposition exercises could rellay help me. I can’t explain why but I felt like this, more than most discoveries, really made my studies practical.

    No point here.
    One thing the exercise shows me is that, with practice and training, I could discover inversions instead of this cheap, chord-shape-based “trick”.

    Comments, questions, suggestions WELCOMED.
    THANKS
    Last edited by GuitarStudent; 02-11-2020 at 11:10 AM.

  6. #80
    Would love to get specific process details from Reg on this. My understanding is that he thinks of transposition guitar mostly "mechanically". At least as a starting point, for players learning at etc.

    My best guess at the process: Can you play the tune from the chart in F at the seventh fret, without going below the sixth fret for voicings /melody etc? If so, you woodshed the tune in that position, using those restrictions, and then practice doing the same thing at the third fret instead. (C major)

    Anyway, I would love clarification if that's not exactly it, but that's my understanding of the way reg talks about doing this "mechanically". Of course, with practice, you wouldn't have to woodshed things ahead of time etc.

  7. #81

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    If you were to put on a blindfold and play a song... but accidentally finger it (perfectly) in the wrong key...

    If you play by ear, use Roman numerals, or some other relative system, repeating this without the blindfold may be easy.

    If you use an absolute system naming notes, intervals, and chords with respect to key, repeating this without the blindfold may be difficult.

  8. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarStudent
    I am editing this post to make more succinct.

    I was recently asked by a singer to play (transpose on the fly) Desafinado in C instead of in the written key of F.

    I am not a skilled Jazz guitarist. This is how I chose to approach this challenge. Doing this elucidated what I’ve learned and the giant amount still ahead.

    Desafinado has 7b5, m7b5, 7, Maj7, 7b9, diminished chords, etc.
    I can play such chords in several “textbook” shapes. And, I know that C is the 5 of F. And I know that a 5th is 7 frets away: Next higher string, up 2 frets.

    So I started like this:
    - C is the 5th of F. C is 7 frets up from F.
    I was playing FMaj7 w root on string 6, fret 1.
    So I played CMaj7 with root on string 5, 3rd fret. Next 2 G chords: almost the same technique (D chords on string 5, root on 5th fret).
    - Now the C7 becomes G7, bass on string 4 fret 5.

    This is all I’m capable on the fly.
    But it gives me a surprising, clear, unexpected peek at the instrument’s great potential and my deficiency.

    I suspect an experienced player wouldn’t do exactly this. He would do something I can’t even imagine at my advanced-beginner level. I don’t have the background to do much else on the fly. Practice!

    but, I found this to be an AMAZING exercise elucidating
    - what I know. Jazzy chords in multiple shapes.
    - a practical value of inversions
    - a reminder to keep studying she’ll voicings.

    I could almost transpose F to C on the fly usingvthis method but I fell just short. I wasn’t fast enough.

    Is there a technique or area of study that my sad tale suggests?

    Still, I found this an enlightening exercise showing the potential of the guitar and how much I’ve learned despite being years behind many others.

    I figured such transposition exercises could rellay help me. I can’t explain why but I felt like this, more than most discoveries, really made my studies practical.

    No point here.
    One thing the exercise shows me is that, with practice and training, I could discover inversions instead of this cheap, chord-shape-based “trick”.

    Comments, questions, suggestions WELCOMED.
    THANKS
    1 if you have 1 minute, take a deep breath , get a pencil and write out the chords up a fifth
    Or
    2 if you don't have a minute , try to just play it thinking "up a fifth"
    or
    3 get irealb on your phone/tablet (life saver and the best £10 you'll ever spend)

  9. #83

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    Singer: "Can you play this in C instead of F?"

    Guitarist: "No".

    Singer: "Well...okay then."
    Last edited by Drumbler; 02-11-2020 at 03:42 PM.