Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Posts 51 to 83 of 83
  1. #51

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    I7 , IV7 , II7 ,V7

    Is it called Honeysuckle Bridge too ?
    Yep close enough

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    "Hearing the changes" by Jerry Coker and co has a lot of these old names for progressions. Montgomery ward, Sears Roebuck etc. It's also kind of the economist's approach to learning to hear changes, in that progressions are prioritised in order of most frequent use etc. :-) Modulations are covered as their own "types" as well. Extensive lists of tune examples, which are so much easier to utilize now, in the YouTube age, compared to when I first got it. I need to dig it out myself. Important skill...
    I know the Jerry Coker book.

    I think those names are a bit obscure to those who don’t know them.

    If you know rhythm changes you know
    a rhythm bridge but you might not know that it is called sears roebuck. Say I have some young bright eyed bass player who is a talented musician but knows about thirty tunes and I want to explain a simple tune quickly.

    I like the traditional names. On the bandstand it’s best to keep it clear as possible. Also I get sears roebuck and Montgomery ward mixed up. There’s no reason to remember by one is rhythm and one is honeysuckle, unless there’s something I’ve missed.

  4. #53

    User Info Menu

    Hey David.... yes, the numeral implies a sound... and for me, it also implies an analysis of the sound.
    Ex. Imaj7, implys A tonic, the tonal reference for a organization of sound, Ionian.... it implies sound and how other sounds function with relationship to that sound in musical context.

    The actual pitch or location on the guitar still needs to be defined....

  5. #54

    User Info Menu

    I never heard the "wards" and "sears" stuff until I started playing with old school country guys.

  6. #55

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    Has anyone worked with the John Mehegan books? He wrote a 4 volume set of really great (I think) improvisational theoretical and practical books. One of them has popular and standard song forms from early Dixieland through the tunes of the day, all in roman numeral format. I didn't understand why he did this at the time, but now that I think of it, it had a lot to do with seeing songs in aural structure and not in specific key.
    I know these books are long out of print. Maybe they were re-published at some point, I don't know. Bill Evans, the pianist, wrote the introduction and spoke highly of these volumes as I recall. As I said earlier, it has a lot to do with how we are taught to learn a piece that determines how easily we can make transposition.

    David
    You're really on the ball monsieur TruthHertz. Great books, preface by Leonard Bernstein not Bill E.

    Have you posted any soundclips here, I'd like to hear some, thanks.

  7. #56

    User Info Menu

    Books? BOOKS?? BOOOOKS???? Well it's not how I learned it. And I have all those books collecting dust. I can lend them out.

    I got the Jerry Coker book, but to be honest there was nothing in there I hadn't already learned by learning tunes on the stand and off the record. I recommend that book - it's good to have someone else have written down the stuff I worked out already in a nice lucid way.

    But I never used it. And I think that it would have been a poor substitute

    I think this is stuff that is really known by the trad & swing guys (and I would think the country guys too, perhaps) in my experience. They certain only won't have needed a textbook for that. Now I don't think of myself so much as a player of that music, but the skillset has been amazingly useful.

    I think modern jazz college educated jazz musicians are much more chart oriented and have a tendency to think in more complex harmony - or at least we are told harmony is complex and theoretical so the idea of busking it becomes more remote. It's standard for musicians to demand a chart if a singer expects them to transpose a tune. They may use a lead sheet for a song they don't know, even for something simple that they could easily busk by ear given a few simple instructions. Also, there is a fear of playing a wrong chord, so charts are a safety net.

    Innovations such as the iRealB have made this even worse. They don't even try, so their skillset in this area does not improve.

    Furthermore, the repertoire is wider in style - it could be standards harmony, modal, non-functional harmony, semi-functional, whatever, so the time people spend learning tunes like Yes And No, Inner Urge or Dolphin Dance means they don't develop the critical mass you need to internalise basic standards harmony.

    If your 200 tunes includes 50 pop-fusion classics and 50 contemporary jazz standards, you are left with only 100 functional tunes, sp have less of a chance of seeing the patterns.... And so on... I'm not having a dig BTW - it's just the gigs you end up doing.

    In this case, a book would help, but then (obviously) it become theoretical learning rather than experiential. And experiential goes deeper.

    This is even more contrasted in trad where the changes are very basic and more generic - in fact the interest of a tune is often in how the usual run of things is subverted. But these basic changes are the skeleton on which later developments are built, and this is true to an extent even for things like Benny Golson harmony (and Dolphin Dance for that matter.)

    In fact the really good straight-ahead guys have this kind of thinking down pat. Watch that Bernstein video Jordan put up, for instance.

    The joke is I don't even class myself as knowing that many standards (people call things I don't know all the time). But, it does go to show, if you have a decent working standards repertoire, all this stuff is going to become brain-numbingly obvious.

  8. #57

    User Info Menu

    Summary - best way to learn, learn lots of tunes, preferably by ear, play them as much as you can, and don't be afraid to have a stab busking tunes you don't know. You will make mistakes, but you will also improve.

  9. #58

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by sunnysideup
    You're really on the ball monsieur TruthHertz. Great books, preface by Leonard Bernstein not Bill E.

    Have you posted any soundclips here, I'd like to hear some, thanks.
    That's right! What a great testimonial. Lenny the B! Nice. Bill Evans did write an intro, a nice poetic essay on improvisation that opens volume 4. Maybe I'll find it and post it somewhere.

    Transposing live-screen-shot-2018-01-02-12-11-57-pm-png

    No soundclips for now. Maybe soon, after I break the self imposed exile I started when I committed to immersion in the fretless. That's a new world right there.
    Back to time on the instrument...
    David

  10. #59

    User Info Menu

    Christian, the book in question was first published a long time before you were born, it's possible that it was the only one that was available at that time (other than Mickey Baker's which was really just a guitarist's thing). Please be assured that we all learnt by ear back in those days - there wasn't another option.

    I'd suggest you try to relax a bit, your ceaseless self-promotion does you a disservice. This forum is full of older, more experienced, and better players (I'm not talking about myself).

  11. #60

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by sunnysideup
    Christian, the book in question was first published a long time before you were born, it's possible that it was the only one that was available at that time (other than Mickey Baker's which was really just a guitarist's thing). Please be assured that we all learnt by ear back in those days - there wasn't another option.

    I'd suggest you try to relax a bit, your ceaseless self-promotion does you a disservice. This forum is full of older, more experienced, and better players (I'm not talking about myself).
    What am I promoting?

    TBF, you are right... I'm just sharing my own experiences and others have more of that. But, hey, that's what the forum is for.

    I think you misunderstand my reasons for posting. I'm not aiming to gain anything by it.

    Also: to paraphrase your post, despite his tender years (bitter laugh, it's all relative), Christian is right. I thank you XX

  12. #61

    User Info Menu

    Whatever I'm promoting, sunnysideup ain't having none of it.

  13. #62

    User Info Menu

    1-17-4-#4(dim)-1-6-2-5-1 The Horse (dim version)
    In this case whether the third chord is a 4m or #4 (or whether you have one at all)
    I like it Christian, why is it called 'The Horse' ?

    Why not I guess ...

    Can l call the first 4 chords a 'horses head'

  14. #63

    User Info Menu

    I have absolutely no idea I'm afraid, I ask the same question.

    If anyone has any further knowledge on this, I'd love to know.

  15. #64
    Yeah, let's keep fighting away from this thread. It's too helpful (for me at least) to get it closed

  16. #65

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by sunnysideup
    I'd suggest you try to relax a bit, your ceaseless self-promotion does you a disservice. This forum is full of older, more experienced, and better players (I'm not talking about myself).
    Well that was uncalled for sonny .... (er sunny)

  17. #66

    User Info Menu

    Sunny doesn’t like me cos he thinks I’m a jumped up millennial huckster or sommat.

    *shrugs* life’s to short to get annoyed about that sort of thing, especially when it makes me feel so YOUNG

  18. #67

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Books? BOOKS?? BOOOOKS???? Well it's not how I learned it. And I have all those books collecting dust. I can lend them out.

    ...
    I think this is stuff that is really known by the trad & swing guys (and I would think the country guys too, perhaps) in my experience. They certain only won't have needed a textbook for that. Now I don't think of myself so much as a player of that music, but the skillset has been amazingly useful.

    I think modern jazz college educated jazz musicians are much more chart oriented and have a tendency to think in more complex harmony - or at least we are told harmony is complex and theoretical so the idea of busking it becomes more remote. It's standard for musicians to demand a chart if a singer expects them to transpose a tune. They may use a lead sheet for a song they don't know, even for something simple that they could easily busk by ear given a few simple instructions. Also, there is a fear of playing a wrong chord, so charts are a safety net.

    Innovations such as the iRealB have made this even worse. They don't even try, so their skillset in this area does not improve.

    ...

    In this case, a book would help, but then (obviously) it become theoretical learning rather than experiential. And experiential goes deeper.

    This is even more contrasted in trad where the changes are very basic and more generic - in fact the interest of a tune is often in how the usual run of things is subverted.

    In fact the really good straight-ahead guys have this kind of thinking down pat. Watch that Bernstein video Jordan put up, for instance.

    The joke is I don't even class myself as knowing that many standards (people call things I don't know all the time). But, it does go to show, if you have a decent working standards repertoire, all this stuff is going to become brain-numbingly obvious.
    I think the whole reactionary direction this thread took was instigated by a reference I'd made about a book that, to my sensibilities, championed the developing of the ear but articulated through a frame of reference that involved a symbolic language. For that, I'm sorry.
    When I read this reaction to that (admittedly possibly tangential) book reference, I did get the feeling that there was a hint of "Books? Books are not the way real players learn." and yeah, I felt a little put off. That's fine, we all have our ways of doing things, but I can say that developing your abilities from experience and ear and broadening your perspectives through the knowledge in a good book are not mutually exclusive.

    So we become the players we are through the understandings we develop through study. More important than books or no books, though, is an open mind. That's MY experience and the thing I've come to value.

    I've said what I think is personally useful, emanresu. I hope you find a pleasing relationship of harmonies somewhere in the thoughts here.

    David

  19. #68

    User Info Menu

    I can only go by learning style. I think I do get a bit reactionary because people get preoccupied by theory.

  20. #69

    User Info Menu

    I've always dug Bruce Forman's take on these matters. I'm paraphrasing, but he's said something to the effect of he's not really 'transposing' per se, he's playing familiar chord patterns by ear, in whatever key he happens to be in. I'm sure most folks here could play a 'simple' I-IV-V blues in any key without a need for a secondary reference. The players that are good at accompanying singers and such have studied and internalized form and harmony to the point where "Stella' or "Sophisticated Lady" are 'simple' as well.

    25 years ago I had a little out of the way coffee house gig with another guitarist. We decided to make it a workshop on 'transposing'. We had a set list, but would roll dice to determine the keys at random. We had some train wrecks , but it was time well spent. Best wishes for your music!

    PK

  21. #70

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by paulkogut
    I've always dug Bruce Forman's take on these matters. I'm paraphrasing, but he's said something to the effect of he's not really 'transposing' per se, he's playing familiar chord patterns by ear, in whatever key he happens to be in. I'm sure most folks here could play a 'simple' I-IV-V blues in any key without a need for a secondary reference. The players that are good at accompanying singers and such have studied and internalized form and harmony to the point where "Stella' or "Sophisticated Lady" are 'simple' as well.

    25 years ago I had a little out of the way coffee house gig with another guitarist. We decided to make it a workshop on 'transposing'. We had a set list, but would roll dice to determine the keys at random. We had some train wrecks , but it was time well spent. Best wishes for your music!

    PK
    I think that this is the way it is really done. I don't believe that a guy who knows hundreds of tunes is thinking about roman numerals. Rather, he can hear the tune in his mind and when it's time to change chords he feels it and can tell, from the sound in his mind, which chord is next.

    I have found it easier to play melody in any key than chords.

    But, I found a trick. It is possible to use single note lines within comping. I've heard great players do it during a vocal and even sometimes during a solo. So, if I'm not sure of the next chord, I start a single note line just before the chord change. Often, I can pick up a note or two and use that limited information to inform a choice about how to handle the chord change. I got the idea from listening to pianists, who don't seem to simply change from one block chord to the next. Rather, you often hear some single notes.

  22. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I think that this is the way it is really done. I don't believe that a guy who knows hundreds of tunes is thinking about roman numerals.
    Maybe they don't HAVE to think numbers, but I'd imagine that those with big enough ears CAN think about these things without it being a hindrance, while at the same time hearing the way your talking about.

  23. #72
    Had an idea to play triad arps while changing keys. I-II,I-III,I-IV etc. The I is always 1 half note below the others. Sounds sweet, here:
    triadmod.mp3 - Google Drive

    I think this is gonna be my favorite mechanical exercise for a while, with those countless variants I hope it helps a bit with the all the transposing later on... But yep, much thanks for everyone's suggestions and opinions. Great read!

  24. #73

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by paulkogut
    I've always dug Bruce Forman's take on these matters. I'm paraphrasing, but he's said something to the effect of he's not really 'transposing' per se, he's playing familiar chord patterns by ear, in whatever key he happens to be in.
    Ha trust Bruce to put what I'm trying to say so succinctly.

  25. #74

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by paulkogut
    I've always dug Bruce Forman's take on these matters. I'm paraphrasing, but he's said something to the effect of he's not really 'transposing' per se, he's playing familiar chord patterns by ear, in whatever key he happens to be in. I'm sure most folks here could play a 'simple' I-IV-V blues in any key without a need for a secondary reference. The players that are good at accompanying singers and such have studied and internalized form and harmony to the point where "Stella' or "Sophisticated Lady" are 'simple' as well.

    25 years ago I had a little out of the way coffee house gig with another guitarist. We decided to make it a workshop on 'transposing'. We had a set list, but would roll dice to determine the keys at random. We had some train wrecks , but it was time well spent. Best wishes for your music!

    PK

    Frank Potenza who teaches with Bruce at USC said in one of his tutor videos and after trying to keep up with people calling different keys, odd tunes, and etc he decide it's time to just quit asking and just play. He told the pianist he was working with all the time to quit telling him what he was go play, to just start songs and he'd join in. He said it was a bit scary at first but didn't take long to get used to and made things flow smoother on the gigs.

  26. #75

    User Info Menu

    Yea... at some point you just have to play. I was lucky to have to... just play back in the 60's because there weren't that many charts.

    Anything works if you put the time in. Some work better. I can sight read just about anything... hell anything.. I might make a few mistakes, but no one would know... because I know what notes have to be right.

    I know hundreds of tunes, but still think and talk while playing... I'm not in the zone, or some heavy mental state... My ears are great because I taught them to be. I love nothing better than telling a horn player when were sight reading some new music... and the chart isn't transposed... hey no problem, I'll transpose the head or changes. (disclaimer... I'm average at best and have only had average talent at best)
    When I was a kid... all horn players transposed, it was expected. And we as rhythm section players were also expected to play tunes in different keys. Vocalist have always helped get gigs... they all have different ranges... there all special etc... (not really, most are very cool)
    There is to much of trying to find the magic button on this forum. It doesn't exist, you actually have to practice and have organization of what you practice.
    Part of being a musician is sight reading. It doesn't really seem that in the last ten years etc... that the transposing skill is required. But it will help you gig... providing you can play in the first place.

    OK... I know most on this forum aren't pros etc... but you might want to be aware of what that means.

    Back to transposing.... if you know a tune, you need some type of approach... the part about just playing and letting your ears and hands work naturally... doesn't fly. When you know lots of tunes.... you either learn basic chord patterns that fit within Forms... or you learn how music works.

    Personally... I'm from the understand music etc... approach. Doesn't require as much memorization or having to play all the time.

    But I know and work with many musicians that know any tune from memory from just playing all the time.

    So either approach works... But you need to get to the point where you either understand music etc... or know enough tune and play enough to where you can cover.

    Just knowing melodies doesn't really cover... we're rhythm section players. We need to be able to solo with harmony. We're not backing tracts. Any box or monkey can memorize one set of basic changes...

    And then... after you get the skills... you need to be able to lock in with other musicians, rhythmically and harmonically. This skill takes time and practice also. I'm sure I've posted about how to lock in... what that means and what needs to be done for that to happen etc...

    Sorry to rant... but ... I need to start posting more vids again...

  27. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    So either approach works...
    ...but not completely. When I sniffed out another approach I always thought "that's it, it's gonna be the golden ticket". Never was. I don't even trust "play tunes - everything is there" 100% - although it's probably the best one and works. Just doing that gets them going but also the known track gets so damn deep. Need to not focus on one way, mix it up, do everything, something crazy sometimes. Talking to/convincing myself here probably..

  28. #77

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by emanresu
    ...but not completely. When I sniffed out another approach I always thought "that's it, it's gonna be the golden ticket". Never was. I don't even trust "play tunes - everything is there" 100% - although it's probably the best one and works. Just doing that gets them going but also the known track gets so damn deep. Need to not focus on one way, mix it up, do everything, something crazy sometimes. Talking to/convincing myself here probably..
    It's hard to trust any one path. TBH I would be the same... Why should I invest my time in this path compared to another?

    Hopefully there is some congruence in the advice from experienced gigging players here in that you kind of have to do it a lot, and best still under pressure on the bandstand (there is a fundamental difference between performance and practice, needless to say.)

    The info is all out there. However dismissive I might sound, Coker and Cork have written great books. However, as with many educators they are simply boiling down the experiential knowledge of any seasoned musician into information. Cork tries hard to avoid this trap by presenting a teaching system, which I think is amazing, but an attempt to replace something that's hard to come by for many.

    However sunny, for instance, might question my credentials - and he has an absolute reason and right to do so, much of the stuff I post here is actually a mix of my own experiences, observations of veteran musicians and information that comes up in conversation with them. I don't claim to own any of this stuff, and never did, so what ever sunny thinks I'm up to, I wouldn't try to monetise that info either. In fact monetising information is stupid, because it's everywhere.

    On the other hand information of itself is less useful than experience and repeated application of that information thousands of times.

    (For me, teaching, which I do get money from, is not about sharing info per se, but actually giving feedback to someone and advising them on their process... But that's another thread.)

    So, I'll quote Jim Mullen who said to me 'you just have to learn the standards and how to play through the standards' which I think is another way of saying what Bruce said.

  29. #78

    User Info Menu

    Yea... personally teaching should know where the end is and how the end works.

    Obviously recognizing what the student really wants and where they might even be able to get...is probable part of the equation.

    All I can say is I've been transposing for years, it's like remembering to plug your guitar in etc...

    Again usually it's not the method of trying to transpose... it other technical problems in one's playing skills.

  30. #79
    I am editing this post to make more succinct.

    I was recently asked by a singer to play (transpose on the fly) Desafinado in C instead of in the written key of F.

    I am not a skilled Jazz guitarist. This is how I chose to approach this challenge. Doing this elucidated what I’ve learned and the giant amount still ahead.

    Desafinado has 7b5, m7b5, 7, Maj7, 7b9, diminished chords, etc.
    I can play such chords in several “textbook” shapes. And, I know that C is the 5 of F. And I know that a 5th is 7 frets away: Next higher string, up 2 frets.

    So I started like this:
    - C is the 5th of F. C is 7 frets up from F.
    I was playing FMaj7 w root on string 6, fret 1.
    So I played CMaj7 with root on string 5, 3rd fret. Next 2 G chords: almost the same technique (D chords on string 5, root on 5th fret).
    - Now the C7 becomes G7, bass on string 4 fret 5.

    This is all I’m capable on the fly.
    But it gives me a surprising, clear, unexpected peek at the instrument’s great potential and my deficiency.

    I suspect an experienced player wouldn’t do exactly this. He would do something I can’t even imagine at my advanced-beginner level. I don’t have the background to do much else on the fly. Practice!

    but, I found this to be an AMAZING exercise elucidating
    - what I know. Jazzy chords in multiple shapes.
    - a practical value of inversions
    - a reminder to keep studying she’ll voicings.

    I could almost transpose F to C on the fly usingvthis method but I fell just short. I wasn’t fast enough.

    Is there a technique or area of study that my sad tale suggests?

    Still, I found this an enlightening exercise showing the potential of the guitar and how much I’ve learned despite being years behind many others.

    I figured such transposition exercises could rellay help me. I can’t explain why but I felt like this, more than most discoveries, really made my studies practical.

    No point here.
    One thing the exercise shows me is that, with practice and training, I could discover inversions instead of this cheap, chord-shape-based “trick”.

    Comments, questions, suggestions WELCOMED.
    THANKS
    Last edited by GuitarStudent; 02-11-2020 at 11:10 AM.

  31. #80
    Would love to get specific process details from Reg on this. My understanding is that he thinks of transposition guitar mostly "mechanically". At least as a starting point, for players learning at etc.

    My best guess at the process: Can you play the tune from the chart in F at the seventh fret, without going below the sixth fret for voicings /melody etc? If so, you woodshed the tune in that position, using those restrictions, and then practice doing the same thing at the third fret instead. (C major)

    Anyway, I would love clarification if that's not exactly it, but that's my understanding of the way reg talks about doing this "mechanically". Of course, with practice, you wouldn't have to woodshed things ahead of time etc.

  32. #81

    User Info Menu

    If you were to put on a blindfold and play a song... but accidentally finger it (perfectly) in the wrong key...

    If you play by ear, use Roman numerals, or some other relative system, repeating this without the blindfold may be easy.

    If you use an absolute system naming notes, intervals, and chords with respect to key, repeating this without the blindfold may be difficult.

  33. #82

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarStudent
    I am editing this post to make more succinct.

    I was recently asked by a singer to play (transpose on the fly) Desafinado in C instead of in the written key of F.

    I am not a skilled Jazz guitarist. This is how I chose to approach this challenge. Doing this elucidated what I’ve learned and the giant amount still ahead.

    Desafinado has 7b5, m7b5, 7, Maj7, 7b9, diminished chords, etc.
    I can play such chords in several “textbook” shapes. And, I know that C is the 5 of F. And I know that a 5th is 7 frets away: Next higher string, up 2 frets.

    So I started like this:
    - C is the 5th of F. C is 7 frets up from F.
    I was playing FMaj7 w root on string 6, fret 1.
    So I played CMaj7 with root on string 5, 3rd fret. Next 2 G chords: almost the same technique (D chords on string 5, root on 5th fret).
    - Now the C7 becomes G7, bass on string 4 fret 5.

    This is all I’m capable on the fly.
    But it gives me a surprising, clear, unexpected peek at the instrument’s great potential and my deficiency.

    I suspect an experienced player wouldn’t do exactly this. He would do something I can’t even imagine at my advanced-beginner level. I don’t have the background to do much else on the fly. Practice!

    but, I found this to be an AMAZING exercise elucidating
    - what I know. Jazzy chords in multiple shapes.
    - a practical value of inversions
    - a reminder to keep studying she’ll voicings.

    I could almost transpose F to C on the fly usingvthis method but I fell just short. I wasn’t fast enough.

    Is there a technique or area of study that my sad tale suggests?

    Still, I found this an enlightening exercise showing the potential of the guitar and how much I’ve learned despite being years behind many others.

    I figured such transposition exercises could rellay help me. I can’t explain why but I felt like this, more than most discoveries, really made my studies practical.

    No point here.
    One thing the exercise shows me is that, with practice and training, I could discover inversions instead of this cheap, chord-shape-based “trick”.

    Comments, questions, suggestions WELCOMED.
    THANKS
    1 if you have 1 minute, take a deep breath , get a pencil and write out the chords up a fifth
    Or
    2 if you don't have a minute , try to just play it thinking "up a fifth"
    or
    3 get irealb on your phone/tablet (life saver and the best £10 you'll ever spend)

  34. #83

    User Info Menu

    Singer: "Can you play this in C instead of F?"

    Guitarist: "No".

    Singer: "Well...okay then."
    Last edited by Drumbler; 02-11-2020 at 03:42 PM.