Major 7th flat 5 or sharp 4?

**Meggy** · 08-29-2009, 12:44 PM

I have recently got hold of a jazz guitar chord book by Richard Boukas (published in the 70's). On the first page he includes several variations on the following chord:

[chord]

||---|---|---|---|---|---|--
||---|---|-1-|---|---|---|--
||---|---|---|---|---|-4-|--
||---|---|---|-2-|---|---|--
||---|---|---|---|-3-|---|--
||---|---|-1-|---|---|---|--

[/chord]
It's a nice sound. He describes the note played with the 4th finger on the G string as a flat 5th, so you have the flat 5th and natural 5th next to each other. But to me this chord has a Lydian sound, so would it not be more correct to call the 4th finger note a sharp 4 (or sharp 11 maybe)?

I don't suppose it really matters as long as you know how it sounds and when to use it, but out of curiosity I'm wondering what the correct terminology is.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 08-29-2009, 12:57 PM

It's almost always a sharp 4 (#11). Play that chord (even leaving out the natural fifth) then alternate with these scales:

G A B C# D E F# G

G A B C Db E F# G

Which sounds right?

**Meggy** · 08-29-2009, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

It's almost always a sharp 4 (#11). Play that chord (even leaving out the natural fifth) then alternate with these scales:

G A B C# D E F# G

G A B C Db E F# G

Which sounds right?

Cheers! well to me the one with the C# sounds right, and obviously to you as well. So the book is wrong!

Although I guess he must have his reasons for going with b5. Or maybe he is just one of those players that is more concerned about the sounds he wants and not theoretical correctness. I suppose a more general question is: When is it correct to call a note a b5 and when is it correct to use #4 or #11?

**derek** · 08-29-2009, 02:11 PM

I always see those chords notated CMaj7#11, as the F# is usually an octave above the root. Love that chord, and that arp.

**Meggy** · 08-29-2009, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by derek

I always see those chords notated CMaj7#11, as the F# is usually an octave above the root. Love that chord, and that arp.

So #11 if an octave plus above the root - makes sense. I guess I'm one of those trusting people who is always suprised by mistakes in books. Not that it is a bad book at all by the way - still well worth a look for anyone wondering. I do like this chord too - for some reason I have not really come across this sound before, at least in the context of my own playing, but at least I'm more aware of it now.

**derek** · 08-29-2009, 03:58 PM

"Mistakes" are one thing. The other thing is, there are no standard conventions for notating chords. Part of the training for all jazz students should be to show all the crazy ways authors/transcribers notate major, minor, dominant, half diminished and fully diminished chords.

Then there are slash chords. Sometimes they are inversions, sometimes they are not. Sometimes guys are notating bitonals (polytonal) chords with plain slashes, as their software won't allow the more traditional way of notating. It is dangerous out there.

**gkorm** · 08-29-2009, 04:12 PM

Good to know your enharmonic spellings (i.e. different names for the same sound)! Most important of course, is to hear the sound and explore it in different contexts. As suggested, the spelling, #11, is in most cases, a more meaningful choice for that chord; though historically, many musicians disregard or are unconcerned with accurate spelling. If you are really interested in pursuing this further, and in great depth, and in a very "organic" way, I recommend a wonderful book: Harmonic Experience by W. A. Mathieu.

**timscarey** · 08-29-2009, 09:17 PM

If there is no third (the chord above) it's #11

If there is a third it's a b5

If there is a third, perfect 5th, and the note in question.. it's Maj7 (add #11) or Maj7 (#11).

That is just my opinion and what I was taught. everyone does it differently I suppose.

**Patriots2006** · 08-30-2009, 05:45 AM

Actually b5 implies #5 and vice versa. #11 implies a natural 5th.

Example:

Key of Bb
A7 to Dm7 (V7 of IIIm7).
The A7 would be noted as A7b5 or A7#5. b5=Eb, #5=F. Both included in the key of Bb

G7 to Cm7 (V7 of IIm7).
The G7 would be written as G7b13 which implies a natural 5th not b5. Therefore the notes would be b13=Eb, natural 5th=D. Again, both in the key of Bb.

Ab7 to Gm7 (bVII7 to Vim7).
The Ab7 would be written as Ab7#11. #11=D, natural 5th= Eb. Both contained in the key.
The same thought process can be applied to the Maj7th chord.

It depends on the key signature or key of the moment and where it is heading.

**gkorm** · 08-30-2009, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Patriots2006

Actually b5 implies #5 and vice versa. #11 implies a natural 5th.

Example:

Key of Bb
A7 to Dm7 (V7 of IIIm7).
The A7 would be noted as A7b5 or A7#5. b5=Eb, #5=F. Both included in the key of Bb

G7 to Cm7 (V7 of IIm7).
The G7 would be written as G7b13 which implies a natural 5th not b5. Therefore the notes would be b13=Eb, natural 5th=D. Again, both in the key of Bb.

Ab7 to Gm7 (bVII7 to Vim7).
The Ab7 would be written as Ab7#11. #11=D, natural 5th= Eb. Both contained in the key.
The same thought process can be applied to the Maj7th chord.

It depends on the key signature or key of the moment and where it is heading.

Great examples of spelling according to the harmonic context! Though I believe, in the first one you meant b13 instead of #5, yes?

<< noted as A7b5 or A7#5. b5=Eb, #5=F >>

i.e. F=b6 or b13 so the A7 chord, with an F in it, is more accurately named A7b13. This is a good example of where it is helpful to be aware of enharmonic spellings, since we are likely to see chord charts with either spelling.

**mr. beaumont** · 08-30-2009, 01:21 PM

#11 for a chord with a major seventh is a pretty good standby rule. saying b5 could imply that there's a perfect fourth in that chord, but that's not really too useful a sound...

essentially, you name a chord by the tone you want to hear as altered, so saying C7b5 implies that C11b5 is a possible subsitiute, but also that you do NOT want to hear a perfect fifth in that chord.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 08-30-2009, 02:30 PM

Of course with alt chords sometimes you'll see:
C7b5#5b9#9

Two different fifths or two different ninths in one chord? Really that's just shorthand for play any alt that fits...

**Meggy** · 08-30-2009, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Of course with alt chords sometimes you'll see:
C7b5#5b9#9

Two different fifths or two different ninths in one chord? Really that's just shorthand for play any alt that fits...

OK, now it's getting more complicated than I thought it could, but thanks for all the replies chaps, even if this means I have some work to do making sure I actually understand all this stuff.

I doubt it but maybe there is a way of playing a C7b5#5b9#9 on the guitar - I will see if I can figure one out (though I realise BDLH is not suggesting this) but...

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 08-30-2009, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by Meggy

OK, now it's getting more complicated than I thought it could, but thanks for all the replies chaps, even if this means I have some work to do making sure I actually understand all this stuff.

I doubt it but maybe there is a way of playing a C7b5#5b9#9 on the guitar - I will see if I can figure one out (though I realise BDLH is not suggesting this) but...

That's not the intention of the notation -- At least I hope not! For starters, there are 7 notes in that chord. You could leave out the root:

[CHORD]

||---|---|---|-#5|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-#9|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-7-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-b9|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-b5|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

[/CHORD]

**Meggy** · 08-30-2009, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

That's not the intention of the notation -- At least I hope not! For starters, there are 7 notes in that chord. You could leave out the root:

[chord]

||---|---|---|-#5|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-#9|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-7-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-b9|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-b5|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

[/chord]

Cheers! I did realise it wasn't the intention of the notation, and you did say that also, but I was just being silly... But now you've gone and done it anyway and beaten me to it! Nice voicing, will have to try it out. I suppose it might just be acceptable to leave the 3rd out rather than the root? Or maybe not...

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 08-30-2009, 07:52 PM

Generally speaking, you should try to keep the third and seventh in chords. (There are exceptions: sus 4 ... but anyway). The first notes to drop are the natural fifth (if present) then then the root (especially if playing with a bass or piano who will cover that).

**Patriots2006** · 08-30-2009, 09:20 PM

Great examples of spelling according to the harmonic context! Though I believe, in the first one you meant b13 instead of #5, yes?

Actually I meant #5. If I had written it as b13 it would imply a natural 5th which would be E natural which is not in the key of Bb. If the A7 chord was part of a direct modulation into a temporay key containing E natural I would write it as b13. This example assumes the progresion following the Dm7 will continue in the original key or move to another key which continues to include Eb as a diatonic note.

**timscarey** · 08-30-2009, 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by Patriots2006

Actually b5 implies #5 and vice versa. #11 implies a natural 5th.
.

We are saying the same thing, I'm talking about specific voicings implied by chod symbols, you are talking about chord/scale relationships. The question is... is the note in question functioning as the 3rd of the chord (#11)or as the 5th of the chord (b5)?

**Patriots2006** · 08-31-2009, 12:55 AM

The question is... is the note in question functioning as the 3rd of the chord (#11)

#11 is an available tension on the chord. It isn't the third. Nor is it a sub for the third.
The third has no bearing on what you call the tension note. b5 or #11.
The chord/scale relationship is what does.

#11 implies a natural 5th
b13 implies a natural 5th
b5 implies #5
#5 implies b5
b9 implies #9
#9 implies b9

b5 and #5 are interchangable.
b9 and #9 are interchangable.
with #11 and b13 you can include or exclude the 5th because it is the least important chord tone necessary to define the chord.

A7 for instance can be played with the root 3rd and 7th and you will still here it as a dom7th chord. The 5th isn't absolutely necessary.

**gkorm** · 08-31-2009, 01:09 AM

Here are some more C7 Altered voicings for Meggy, a way of getting all those tensions to be heard on the guitar, by spitting the chord up in two or more smaller voicings (not so small for the guitar though) -- see attachment. I suppose I sidestepped the issue of spelling by just calling it C7 alt.
Lazy me! ; )

**Patriots2006** · 08-31-2009, 01:17 AM

I suppose I sidestepped the issue of spelling by just calling it C7 alt.

Nice example of voicings.
C7alt means altered 9 and altered 5th. You can use any combination you choose. It doesn't mean #11 or b13 which would imply an unaltered or natural 5th.

**gkorm** · 08-31-2009, 02:12 AM

Originally Posted by Patriots2006

Nice example of voicings.
C7alt means altered 9 and altered 5th. You can use any combination you choose. It doesn't mean #11 which would imply an unaltered or natural 5th.

Glad you liked the voicings! Thanks also for drawing me further into this discussion.

I would say we are on the same page regarding how to think about altered chords. However, I do also think and hear in terms of chord scales (as timscarey suggested). So while I would end up having or hearing the same note choices that you suggest, I might find a reason to spell them differently, as in the following chord/scale typically used for dom 7 alt:

root,
b9,
b3,
o4 (a seemingly weird enharmonic spelling of a major 3rd that I promise I will never put in a chord chart, though I might just possibly try to hear the tone that way),
b5,
b6 (this is reason for that b13 in my previous post, which I acknowledge is less frequently used in chord charts in this context for the reasons you describe),
and finally...
b7.

Apologies to Meggy and others for getting so involved with theoretical details! It is quite possible to play wonderfully and never bother working out chord spelling to this degree. Though it IS really helpful to hear these different note choices and to hear how they relate in different harmonic concepts, and of course to find them on your guitar. It is also helpful to know what a composer intends when reading a chord chart, but that assumes the composer understands the theory in the same way the musician reading the chart does. I am not aware that we musicians have worked it out quite so consistently. Maybe that is a good reason for this discussion after all!

Best wishes,
George K

**Meggy** · 08-31-2009, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by Patriots2006

#11 is an available tension on the chord. It isn't the third. Nor is it a sub for the third.
The third has no bearing on what you call the tension note. b5 or #11.
The chord/scale relationship is what does.

#11 implies a natural 5th
b13 implies a natural 5th
b5 implies #5
#5 implies b5
b9 implies #9
#9 implies b9

b5 and #5 are interchangable.
b9 and #9 are interchangable.
with #11 and b13 you can include or exclude the 5th because it is the least important chord tone necessary to define the chord.

A7 for instance can be played with the root 3rd and 7th and you will still here it as a dom7th chord. The 5th isn't absolutely necessary.

A very useful summary of some key points which I find most helpful, cheers!

**Meggy** · 08-31-2009, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by gkorm

Here are some more C7 Altered voicings for Meggy, a way of getting all those tensions to be heard on the guitar, by spitting the chord up in two or more smaller voicings (not so small for the guitar though) -- see attachment. I suppose I sidestepped the issue of spelling by just calling it C7 alt.
Lazy me! ; )

Cool, thanks for this!

**Meggy** · 08-31-2009, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Generally speaking, you should try to keep the third and seventh in chords. (There are exceptions: sus 4 ... but anyway). The first notes to drop are the natural fifth (if present) then then the root (especially if playing with a bass or piano who will cover that).

Yes, I think I was taught that at some point too, although I think there are some places in Ted Greene's books (for example) where he has an altered dom type chord without the 3rd. Probably you get away with it if the chord is used in the right context.

Plus I came up with this interesting (at least I think so) voicing for the 7#5b5#9b9 chord:
[chord]

||---|---|---|b9-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|#5-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|#9-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|b7-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|b5-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-R-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

[/chord]
Which as you can see is actually a Db 6/9 over a G bass, so a 6/9 a tritone above the root in effect. It seems to sound OK, so maybe the idea was not as silly as I originally thought?