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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP View Post
    I'm glad I stirred up a little discussion. Share Your "Aha!" Moments
    My statement that rhythm is more important than note choices was obviously way too broad, but there's still some truth in it. I'd much rather hear someone tap an interesting rhythm with the strings muted than play the "right" notes with bad rhythm.
    Yeah..this one I can definitely agree with...

    I have to remember that Jazz Veterans presuppose a certain Level of expertise ....

    And 'Time ' Players are so much more fun and sometimes dramatic to listen to for sure .
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 05-15-2018 at 08:21 PM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    A great aha moment a few years back, was looking for gigs for a jazz quartet and "aha" nobody wanted to hire a jazz group, but, did I know a ZZ Top cover band that would play 9pm to 1am for $300 most any Fri or Sat nite?

  4. #53

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    ????

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  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo View Post
    A great aha moment a few years back, was looking for gigs for a jazz quartet and "aha" nobody wanted to hire a jazz group, but, did I know a ZZ Top cover band that would play 9pm to 1am for $300 most any Fri or Sat nite?
    I know those guys. "Dos Hombres," play with a drum machine...one less guy to pay!
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  6. #55

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    when I realized every chord of 4 notes can be just one of 5 types: 1 3 5 7 / 1 3 5 9 / 1 3 5 11 / 1 3 7 9 / 1 3 7 11

    yup!

  7. #56

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    Since this post is in the 'theory' forum, I will say that my AHA moment was realizing it's not about playing the theory. It's about playing the sounds. I think I have posted here that I have taught college theory - all levels, and I did it for many years. I am a theory nerd, I love theory, and I never realized how bad and unmusical playing the theory can sound. Jimmy Bruno's on-line teaching made me realize that scales are definitely not the answer FOR ME. I can do melodic and harmonic analysis like crazy, and I understand all the substitute scales that are commonly used, and why they work. Boy did that ever make me a bad guitar player! When Jimmy demonstrated his approach, it really opened my eyes. Don't get me wrong, I still consider myself pretty bad, but at least not as bad as I used to be.

    I admire players who can assign a different scale or mode to every single chord and make it sound like music - even when the chords are all diatonic to the same major scale. (...but just saying it like that makes it seem completely ludicrous.) There are some gifted players, many of whom I'm sure are members, who can do this. I am certainly not one.
    Last edited by ScottM; 05-28-2017 at 09:54 PM.

  8. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    Since this post is in the 'theory' forum, I will say that my AHA moment was realizing it's not about playing the theory. It's about playing the sounds. I think I have posted here that I have taught college theory - all levels, and I did it for many years. I am a theory nerd, I love theory, and I never realized how bad and unmusical playing the theory can sound. Jimmy Bruno's on-line teaching made me realize that scales are definitely not the answer FOR ME. I can do melodic and harmonic analysis like crazy, and I understand all the substitute scales that are commonly used, and why they work. Boy did that ever make me a bad guitar player! When Jimmy demonstrated his approach, it really opened my eyes. Don't get me wrong, I still consider myself pretty bad, but at least not as bad as I used to be.

    I admire players who can assign a different scale or mode to every single chord and make it sound like music - even when the chords are all diatonic to the same major scale. (...but just saying it like that makes it seem completely ludicrous.) There are some gifted players, many of whom I'm sure are members, who can do this. I am certainly not one.
    Theory doesn't have a "sound". It's not a "style" of playing our even an approach per se.

    Many here understand what is meant by the above, but as-is, it's pretty strong hyperbole, and potentially confusing to those who DON'T know what you're actually getting at.

  9. #58

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    Latest "Aha!" moment: The modes, finally.

    How did I come to this? I started practicing the G major scale as a three note per scale excercise. After that got boring I continued to expand it to all positions. And that's when I realized the open position is E minor. And so forth.

    This also opened up the fretboard more for me. Example: a song in G minor --> move the grid. This is more of a fingering excercise still, because the theory behind it hasn't clicked. When I can identify more of the notes in the chords better, then I can adjust based on that and not just the root position. Like Jimmy Bruno said in some of his Q&A - you have to know what (notes) you're playing.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marwin Moody View Post
    16 32 32 16 16
    ???????



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  11. #60

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    When CAGED positions became a complete mapping system of the fingerboard, always next to each other in the same order whatever was the starting position ! It made it much easier to move around the fingerboard when playing.
    Perfection is in the Details, but Perfection isn't a Detail (Leonardo da Vinci)

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    Theory doesn't have a "sound".
    I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

    An Ab melodic minor scale has a very distinct sound. Using it over a G7 chord has a distinct sound. Both are theoretical concepts. Unfortunately, I started studying jazz after I had completed four semesters of theory as a music major, and I was completely 'self taught'. If I read an interview with a player who revealed that you can use the Ab melodic minor scale over a G7 chord, then I would take that to heart, learn melodic minor scale in all positions on the guitar - 2 octaves across the neck. It was my belief that it would start to come out in my playing. (yeah, right.) I am living proof you can't learn to play jazz by just reading the manual. Of course, I did the complete analytical study of why that scale would work over the chord, and the theory of all the alterations made perfect sense to me.

    I also did the analytical study of these over a G7 chord: G altered scale, G diminished/whole tone scale, G Super locrian, Lydian Dominant scale rooted a tritone above the G, etc. ...Yeah, I said that.

    If I had just had a teacher, when I was 15, say, "hey, check this out - you can use these 2 notes on this chord and it sounds cool, right? Use that!", I would have never cared about the theory behind it. I didn't need to know that the notes were Ab and Bb over a G7 or that it is in bar 10 or Green Dolphin Street. It just needed to be presented to me as: "this is how you do it." I never had that, and I suppose it's my own personal curse.

    Let's just say it was a pretty frustrating 25 years.

    I guess a better answer would have been, "you're right. Never mind." :-)
    Last edited by ScottM; 05-29-2017 at 07:00 PM.

  13. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    I guess a better answer would have been, "you're right. Never mind." :-)
    really? Wow...

    Again, I think most would agree with what you're saying, but it's not theory's fault. Maybe whoever gave you the approach of just playing whatever scale as a "method". All of the pitch collections work pretty well, when you have some basic vocabulary/melodic devices otherwise together. I understand that THAT'S a huge assumption in and of itself. The whole ...the-scale -is-the-method approach is a huge problem in jazz ed, but that's not just "theory".

    Some folks may view this as largely semantics, but I have a big philosophical problem with blaming theory for this kind of stuff.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 05-29-2017 at 08:53 PM. Reason: H

  14. #63

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    A few more:

    1. Learning what a tonal center was.

    2. Being reminded, by a bassist, that executing a simple idea with good time is way better than not quite executing a complicated idea with bad time.

    3. Spending a few hours with my pedal board to find a patch that would allow me to make some of the sounds in my head. Just to make the case: imagine Santana trying to play his style on an archtop into a Polytone -- and then discovering a solid body into a Boogie.

    4. Having a pianist hear a wrong chord I played and tell me, not just what it should have been, but what I just played in error. I hadn't realized it was possible to hear things and identify them at that level and it spurred me to do some formal ear training for the first time. Another time, a band leader said "where the seventh?". I had just played 1x123x without pressing hard enough on the D string -- and this in a room full of sound, including piano.

    5. Accepting that there were things I'd never be able to do and instead working more on developing a personal style out of the stuff I can do.

    6. Realizing that it isn't necessary to play every chord on a chart.

    7. Hearing Ralph Sharon, pianist with Tony Bennett, introduce the bridge to various tunes. What he does is create a little composition of a couple of bars, with chords and melody and rhythm that invariable fits perfectly with the tune. It helped me realize that good comping (at least if there's no other chord instrument in the group) is not simply strumming chords, but is creating a part. That induced me to comp in a guitar trio/singer setting with lots of single note lines and chord fragments, always trying to do what I could to play Ralph Sharon's concept.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 05-29-2017 at 07:00 PM.

  15. #64

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    Hmm... I don't recall saying it was a theory problem. I think I said it's a ME problem. Letting go of the theory was my aha moment, and I don't instantly assume everyone else or anyone else has ever had the same problem.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    Can I just close my eyes while I Play and think of the Pyramids ?
    Ha! Liked this.

  17. #66

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    I started playing guitar around age 14. As soon as I started walking around with a guitar case, people
    would ask if I was a lead guitarist or a rhythm guitarist. I felt certain that greater glory was to be found
    as the lead guitarist. Although I did learn some basic songs, I spent most of my time figuring out riffs and
    leads within very limited resources. As I began to play more with others, I discovered that playing in a rhythm
    section, parts in a relation to what others were playing (aka rhythm guitar) accounted for the largest percentage
    of what the music required. While lead guitar was still a path to glory, playing rhythm guitar was taking care of business.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    Hmm... I don't recall saying it was a theory problem. I think I said it's a ME problem. Letting go of the theory was my aha moment, and I don't instantly assume everyone else or anyone else has ever had the same problem.
    Reading Mark Levine's Jazz Theory was one long Aha moment.

    But, I may have had a bigger Aha moment when I realized that I had to limit my involvement with theory. I found it was distracting me from basic things I needed to work on, mainly rhythmic issues. I also recognized that few of the chord/scale/lick juxtapositions were getting into my playing. I came to believe that I could work on the combinatorics forever - and maybe finally learn lots of sounds and how to find them - and still not be a decent musician.

    This is not an argument against learning CST. Rather, it's a recognition that, for me, it was seductive and, at times, got in the way. I think the better way (speaking only for myself) would be to work out of lot of things with simple scale forms and then introduce additional sounds slowly, based on what catches my ear on recordings. I know it's possible to use CST to discover new sounds, but I never had success with that approach.

  19. #68

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    My biggest "aha!" is kind of well off the beaten path; abandoning the naming of things (keys, notes, scales, chords) in my own playing. I have always played exclusively by ear and reached a point long ago where I realized I was hearing far more into the music directly than any untangling of names could ever describe. Pitches take multiple note names, scales change names with interpretation, chords change names with context, and even progression changes may be renamed for re-harmonization, superimposition, etc... but when listening, practicing, rehearsing, and performing I just directly hear, recognize, and play these sounds as unnamed identities - it's the way I understand music.

    I have however continued to use theory when working up tunes with my fellow musicians. Maybe the pianist is playing the same chord when it needs to be different the second time (a bridge that walks down to a 7sus2, then repeats but the second time needs to change that last chord to 9th, to functionally herald the continuation into the next part...), or he's playing an 11sus2 where I hear a 13b9 might be better, I ask, "Try moving the three notes in your right hand down a half step, what do you think?"

  20. #69

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    So I was talking about chords n stuff
    with a really good sax player friend
    I mean he's way more advanced
    harmonically than me ...

    During the convo I realised that I knew
    technically more than him on theory !
    modes of Mel min etc ...
    and I didn't know a huge amount myself

    But somehow he could play me under the table
    and back again
    I thought Huh ? How's that work ?

    I got a big Aha !
    So ...maybe its not about the theory so much
    I stopped trying to grab the theory so much and
    started learning tunes
    I now think
    Its about really feeling the harmony and singing the
    lines over that , not over analysing

    Theory's like salt , a little is really good but its easy
    to overdo it
    Last edited by pingu; 05-30-2017 at 08:55 PM.

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    So many...too many to recall, even...

    My big one now is in simplfying the chords to a tune, and then STILL not chasing changes. I've never felt so relaxed or free.
    I feel like I'm on the verge of this...call it pre-AHA. Lots of iii and vi subs for major tonic in the Howard Roberts Superchops changes we are working on in the study group. I still haven't completely reconciled how to not try and think of iii and vi as separate chords--still learning to hear sounds and implications instead of just chords. It's a bit trickier with ii-V7 that may contain altered sounds. And playing at the obscenely slow tempos I am practicing the materials at, thinking V7alt over a ii can sound off. Any ways some day I hope this will be a full fledged aha for me.

  22. #71

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    The relationship between the interrupted cadence and the minor ii V I. And realising that 7b9 is not always best understood as 7 altered.

    Obvious perhaps, but the most useful thing I have learned for vanilla changes running. Also the way it explains how apparently unconnected ii v I s in Real Book style changes operate.

    Further rabbit holes into diminished symmetry from there.
    Last edited by christianm77; 06-10-2017 at 08:45 AM.

  23. #72

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    My first A-ha moment came when I've heard ''Take On Me'' on the radio.

  24. #73

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    When I saved all my gig money for a month, and went "aha", I can't pay my rent.

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    My first A-ha moment came when I've heard ''Take On Me'' on the radio.
    That half time in the chorus tho

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    That half time in the chorus tho
    Pop music at its best! Saying that makes me realize Im more European than American, but thats ok. I was a proud owner of two LPs, Pet Shop Boys and A-ha, and thats all needed at the time.

  27. #76

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    The biggest 'AHA' of my actual Playing which opened the door to how I Play now was I about 3 or 4 years ago taking my Fret Hand Thumb OFF the top of the neck .
    Because I have small hands and a short pinky - the fret hand ' thumb up ' which enables vibrato was really holding me back and I didn't realize how much.

    I had developed advanced pick hand facility in the
    by the late 80's and was stretching to 6 frets for cool voicings ..playing in a kind of post Steely Dan way but my fret hand could not really keep up for fluid type stuff and I had Fusion speed but only in short bursts -not for 'sculpting ' long lines .



    About 3 to 4 years ago I switched thumb off top of neck just fooling around ( not a big decision )and surprisingly it worked rather quickly and there was consistency that carried over to the next day .

    Then more surprisingly after only a week or so I was able to start playing much more easily and cross pick more easily across voicings. And it was STABLE and consistent .

    Then more surprisingly it just became much easier to Play what I was hearing and my fret hand covers 5 frets instead of 4 on lines ( but aside from that it just became much easier- about twice as easy to Solo ) .

    And the CPU load on my brain/ mind lowered so I can mentally 'cue ' up the ending to the current line
    while playing it .. another huge AHA.

    But - the full Transition to how I Play now - took about another 3 to 4000 hours which is relatively quickly and I can Play a very large % of what I 'hear' now which I could never do on single lines without 'compromising'.
    Including Fusion Type Speeds with Swing - Guitar Abuse overplaying but in small doses played with nice clean Tone in Rhythm is kinda cool.


    'Pre hearing ' while Playing the current Part or Line
    and nailing it all in the 'time feel ' you 'hear' imagine
    is A 'KEY ' to high level Pro Improv.

    I said 'A Key ' - not saying it's the only way or the Best way - but it really works - and will work for others I am quite sure.

    I even do 'drills' or Practice putting defferent endings on the same 1 to 4 sometimes 2.5 Bar line Phrase - to see if I can get it to resolve to a different Harmonic Region - this can be done by an Arp or Arp Fragment of the Destination - the Key to ALL IMPROV is Melodic Cadences whether you know ALL Theory or NO Theory -
    ( another AHA ).
    As I pointed out in a few other Threads - CST in Practice will not work for establishing the New Tonal Area unless you are playing arp fragments any way.
    [ although I don't fully grasp CST on a deep level]

    'What exactly is your Point Robert ?'

    My point is that often you NEED Arp Fragments in your lines to tie the lines Harmonically to the Music and you MUST USE Arp Fragments ( chord tones and extensions ) to do this.

    Do they have to be the SAME Arp as the chord you are Soloing Over ?

    No -it can be a Related Chord Arp.

    As long as the Related Arp contains many common Tones as the Parent Chord [ C.O.M.].

    IF you are using Zen Buddhism or Scientology -or CST ( as a 'Pitch Collection ') you STILL must come up with chord tones and or extensions regardless of how you come up with it including 'prehearing' the actual Tones and nailing them ..and sometimes..a thought ...( 'BbMinor') ..then hearing that Triad ...and nailing that etc.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 11-30-2017 at 08:36 AM.

  28. #77

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  29. #78

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    I've talked about this before, but my big AHA! moment was this:

    I had studied theory for a while. I took two semesters of classical theory in college, and had read a ton of stuff. I understood how to construct and harmonize a scale, write basic harmony parts, etc. But there was always something basic eluding me, and I could never put my finger on it. I just didn't understand how the whole system fit together.

    One day - I don't remember what I was doing - it was like my mental camera just suddenly "zoomed out", and I realized I was looking at everything too closely. A "wider" view allowed me to see the whole thing, and finally understood what all the theory stuff was getting at.

    I have no idea how or why it happened, and nothing similar has happened since, that I'm aware of. It just felt like the biggest discovery ever. I wanted to run and tell everyone, but pretty much everyone I know would have either already known about it, or wouldn't have cared.
    "I'm opposed to picketing, but I don't know to show it." --Mitch Hedberg

  30. #79

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    Another big moment is when I was informed that there wasn't any one method to learn how to play jazz, except your own way. If you're playing it someone else's way, you've missed the point.

  31. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Hail Xenu
    Lol.

    I had to read this twice ...
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 11-28-2017 at 08:38 PM.

  32. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo View Post
    Another big moment is when I was informed that there wasn't any one method to learn how to play jazz, except your own way. If you're playing it someone else's way, you've missed the point.
    Post of the year! Sometimes I feel as though not many around here truly agree with this, I mean fully agree.

    You won't get rich, you won't get laid, you probably won't get much respect either, given that the only people who can appreciate what you do are people who may see you as competition!....
    So why are we spending hundreds of hours each year grinding away slowly at one of the most arduous and unrewarding artistic disciplines that mankind is yet to invent??

    A / Because the satisfaction of figuring out (on your own) how to play the way you want to is worth every minute.

    B / Some other reason(s).

    If you picked 'B' then sorry, but we can't be friends...

  33. #82

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    Here's one:

    EVERYONE is trying get better, including the players we want to be like.

    NO-ONE listens back to their playing and is completely satisfied.

  34. #83

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    Finding that I'm most at home with a rhythm section that can lay down disco-funk grooves.

  35. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot View Post
    Finding that I'm most at home with a rhythm section that can lay down disco-funk grooves.
    You need to get a pair of these, then:
    Share Your "Aha!" Moments-71llzwljx-l-_ul1500_-jpg

  36. #85

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    I think everyone needs a pair of those.
    "I'm opposed to picketing, but I don't know to show it." --Mitch Hedberg

  37. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    You need to get a pair of these, then:
    Share Your "Aha!" Moments-71llzwljx-l-_ul1500_-jpg
    If Cornell Dupree and Eric Gale had worn platforms...

  38. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Here's one:

    EVERYONE is trying get better, including the players we want to be like.

    NO-ONE listens back to their playing and is completely satisfied.
    That kind of blows my mind, because I know a couple of people around here who play so beautifully, I can't imagine that changing anything would be an improvement.

    Here's one: I was taking a lesson with a local pro, and I was dilligently outlining all the chords. He stopped and said, "You don't need to be that faithful to the chords." I said, "I though I was supposed to outline the harmony in my solos." He said, "Nah, you can do whatever you want."

    Not exactly an earth-shattering statement, but it made me rethink everything I'd been doing.
    "I'm opposed to picketing, but I don't know to show it." --Mitch Hedberg

  39. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Joe View Post
    "You don't need to be that faithful to the chords."
    That was my 'aha' - because I over-played.

  40. #89

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    Another one: I don't remember where this came from, but:

    Don't worry about the root and 5th. The bassist has those notes covered.
    "I'm opposed to picketing, but I don't know to show it." --Mitch Hedberg

  41. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot View Post
    That was my 'aha' - because I over-played.
    I have that tendency as well. Lately I've been really trying to work on space and phrasing. Trying to play phrases that are phrases, that go someplace and have an ending. And a little (or a lot) space before the next phrase.
    "I'm opposed to picketing, but I don't know to show it." --Mitch Hedberg

  42. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Joe View Post
    I have that tendency as well. Lately I've been really trying to work on space and phrasing. Trying to play phrases that are phrases, that go someplace and have an ending. And a little (or a lot) space before the next phrase.

  43. #92

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    This is one of those few experiences where something happened in a few minutes which significantly changed my playing.

    A lesson in which I started with xx2233, a stack of fourths using notes in Cmajor (same stack occurs in other keys, but that came later).

    Then the teacher showed me that I could move each note up to the next one in the Cmajor scale. The next one is xx3455. After that xx5567. And so forth.

    The idea of moving a voicing through a scale was one I'd heard before. It wasn't "aha" until the teacher explained that I could use any of these voicings as comping chords in Cmajor, whether they were tonic type or dominant. Meaning I could play them against a Cmaj or a G7.

    Yes, some of them give you an F against Cmaj and others give a C against G7, but they can work anyway. You do have to use them with care if you lean on them for too long.

    There are 3 shapes for the scale.

    It works even better for melodic minor (4 shapes) because there are no avoid notes. Meaning, you can use any grip against any chord in the mel minor scale. All the voicings will work. They don't all sound the same, so they give you options to create different sounds.

    Also, for melodic minor, the absence of an avoid note means that you can pick any cluster of notes you want, not just stacked thirds or fourths. Anything.

    Aha!

  44. #93

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    A big "Aha" moment for me was when I worked out the voicing for the first chord in "Moonlight In Vermont" by Johnny Smith.

  45. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    My first A-ha moment came when I've heard ''Take On Me'' on the radio.
    AH Ha!
    Great Deals with Great Folks: max52 (Guild-Benedetto Artist Award); prickards (Ribbecke GC Halfling); Cincy2 (Comins Concert)

  46. #95

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  47. #96

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    Aha!

  48. #97

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    It says the Stuff Video is not available in my Country...

    The price I must pay for living in a Smaller Country near Canada....( USA ).

  49. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Joe View Post
    Another one: I don't remember where this came from, but:

    Don't worry about the root and 5th. The bassist has those notes covered.
    Yep, that was a good moment for me too, when Raj told me, "hit the third, seventh, and an extension."

  50. #99

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    Re. over-playing, I'm going to learn to lay back - and let the music breathe.

    A short clip from Tuesday's late-night rehearsal:

  51. #100

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    If you can distinguish between rehearsing and practicing...you're better than half way there!