Line Cliches

**scout** · 03-16-2017, 12:14 AM

G'day all,a question from a ' theory challenged ' newbie ..
Is there such a thing as a Major Line Cliche ?
Say I'm playing ..... C minor, C minor/major 7th, C minor 7th , C minor 6th ..one chord per beat ,in a bar of Music in 4/4 time .. this sounds Minor to me
Would there be a descending pattern like this that sounds Major?
What would the chords be please .. in the key of C .
Many thanks ..

**JakeAcci** · 03-16-2017, 09:20 AM

yes absolutely

C Cmaj7 C7 F (Fm C D7 G7)

I've heard line cliches be described as descending motion from the root or ascending motion from the fifth. Doesn't have to be chromatic. But from the fifth:

C C+ C6 C7

that works in minor too:

Cm Ab/C Cm6

**mrcee** · 03-16-2017, 12:42 PM

How about C13, C7b13, C7, C7b5?

Positioned at the 8th fret the A on the B string would descend chromatically to the Gb.

**scout** · 03-16-2017, 11:16 PM

Thanks JakeAcci,they're nice ..I'll work on those ..
and to mrcee ... I'll have to consult a chord book and access those chords..Decending chromatically could be what I'm after.
What prompted my post about the line cliches is a passage in a song I'm learning... A room with a View 1928 Noel Coward..
I think I'm mistaken about where the line cliche was..Here's a link to a nice version by the extremely nice Maude Maggart

.. I thought a MAJOR progression came in when it goes to the chorus at 1:00 ,but it is actually the Minor progression (which I know) that comes in a few bars later.. I'll have to plead to having a 'seniors moment ' I guess .

I love the Guitarist's simple and effective chording ... would any caring soul be able to figure the chords out for me please ?

Thanks for your tolerance folks ..
P.S. I suppose this tune is not Jazz as such ... verging on it maybe ?

**mrcee** · 03-17-2017, 04:29 AM

For the chords I gave they would be this.

8,x,8.9.10.x (C13)

8.x.8.9.9.x (C7b13)

8.x.8.9.8.x (C7)

8.x.8.9.7.x (C7b5)

**scout** · 03-17-2017, 04:53 AM

Thanks mrcee ,that's excellent ,
Did you like Maude's rendition of A room with a View.. ? ..

**Rob MacKillop** · 03-17-2017, 05:48 AM

Lovely. I think in a room, she would be the view...

**mrcee** · 03-17-2017, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by scout

Thanks mrcee ,that's excellent ,
Did you like Maude's rendition of A room with a View.. ? ..

Very nice. I wasn't familiar with her. Is she Australian?

**scout** · 03-17-2017, 06:22 AM

I hadn't heard of her either.. until I was searching through youtube for different settings of A room with a View.
She's American,born in New York 1975 .. I love the ' fluttering butterfly ' (?) quality of her voice,really suits this fine old song .. I like what the Guitarist is doing too..
And yes .. I agree ... In a room she WOULD be the view .. a very beautiful woman.

**destinytot** · 03-17-2017, 10:38 AM

"(This dream we've) found..." (in this key) melody note E, not D - Mr Bridger should know (it were 'im wot wrote it). Great verse:

**destinytot** · 03-17-2017, 11:45 AM

Shades of Two Sleepy People ("Father didn't like me at all..."):

**destinytot** · 03-17-2017, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by scout

.
I love the Guitarist's simple and effective chording ... would any caring soul be able to figure the chords out for me please ?

Hope it helps:

**scout** · 03-17-2017, 05:59 PM

Thanks a million destinytot you've done so well on this ..
It's a bleak ,windy and wet day ( dare I say English weather

) here on the East Coast of OZ today.. just perfect for a chap to be learning a new song on his Guitar..
Cheers mate ..

**matt.guitarteacher** · 03-19-2017, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by scout

G'day all,a question from a ' theory challenged ' newbie ..
Is there such a thing as a Major Line Cliche ?
Say I'm playing ..... C minor, C minor/major 7th, C minor 7th , C minor 6th ..one chord per beat ,in a bar of Music in 4/4 time .. this sounds Minor to me
Would there be a descending pattern like this that sounds Major?
What would the chords be please .. in the key of C .
Many thanks ..

A lot of times you hear them as "relative minor" line cliches. Over C Maj, you can play A minor type line cliches. Are they thinking C6 or just subbing Am? Almost doesn't matter....

You can do similar with E minor over C Maj etc...

**scout** · 03-19-2017, 10:46 PM

Thanks Matt .... that works well
The wonders and joys of Mathematics in Music

...

**matt.guitarteacher** · 03-22-2017, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by mrcee

For the chords I gave they would be this.

8,x,8.9.10.x (C13)

8.x.8.9.9.x (C7b13)

8.x.8.9.8.x (C7)

8.x.8.9.7.x (C7b5)

Opened up William Leavitt's volume 2 today and randomly happened upon his version of this progression, pages 34 and 35 incidentally. His are rootless voicings and he has four variations on page 34 , but the movement of the chromatic voices is the same.

Anyway, interestingly, page 35 is comprised of the same progressions in reverse . These are spelled as the tritone substitution of the other progression and resolve accordingly. Leavitt has some good CESH ( line cliché) material in his books.

**rpjazzguitar** · 03-22-2017, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

A lot of times you hear them as "relative minor" line cliches. Over C Maj, you can play A minor type line cliches. Are they thinking C6 or just subbing Am? Almost doesn't matter....

You can do similar with E minor over C Maj etc...

Going back and forth between maj7 and 6 is an old one.

A line starting with 9 and going down the scale R 7, 6, 5 works sometimes.

Lines where you reharm a major by moving to iim iiim IVmaj7 (or similar) can accomplish the same thing, but there are some avoid notes there you have to deal with somehow.

Jim Hall would hold a note on the E string and move notes on the B string, so you could hold, say, a B on the E string 7th fret (against Cmaj) and then, on the B string, pass A, G, F, E. How good it sounds will depend on context. Probably best with no piano, medium or slower tempo and quieter music. Jim Hall made it sound brilliant. He did it with other chord types.

**mrcee** · 03-24-2017, 04:02 AM

This line cliche is through a i-vi-ii-V turnaround. The line moves chromatically on the 4th string from the 8th fret to the 5th.

x.x.8.8.8.8 (Cm7) or could be major x.x.8.9.8.x (C7)

x.x.7.8.8.8 (Am7b5)

x.5.6.5.6.x (Dm7b5) or x.5.6.5.8.x (Dm11b5)

x.5.5.4.4.x (G aug) or x.4.5.4.6.x (G7b5)

**blackcat** · 03-24-2017, 06:32 AM

Spotted here at 2:50secs in this excellent 'Tenor Madness' lesson from the late Rick Stone......

**ragman1** · 03-24-2017, 07:54 AM

I like this guy's teaching style.

**blackcat** · 03-24-2017, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

I like this guy's teaching style.

Rick was a natural. A warm and giving individual and first rate musician. A great loss.

**christianm77** · 03-24-2017, 08:46 AM

Notice the Rhythmic Displacement of where the notes of that line cliche end up in the Tenor Madness line. The notes are dead boring, but the rhythm brings it alive.

This is the sort of thing Sonny is all about.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 03-24-2017, 09:09 AM

It's splitting hairs somewhat, and they are basically similar types of things, but for purposes of disambiguation, a line cliché or CESH is different from a "lead line" more generally. Chromatic lead lines based on back cycling, turnarounds or other devices are different beasts compared to devices commonly referred to as "line clichés".

A line cliché (or CESH) is a more specific example of a chromatic leadline, specifically, one in which the overall harmony remains relatively static. (The chromatic line actually implies dominant and you can argue about that , but it basically "goes back " or maybe back-and-forth.)

Anyway, sorry to be a nerd , but want to be clear on terminology. Maybe I'm wrong on some point?

**mrcee** · 03-24-2017, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

It's splitting hairs somewhat, and they are basically similar types of things, but for purposes of disambiguation, a line cliché or CESH is different from a "lead line" more generally. Chromatic lead lines based on back cycling, turnarounds or other devices are different beasts compared to devices commonly referred to as "line clichés".

A line cliché (or CESH) is a more specific example of a chromatic leadline, specifically, one in which the overall harmony remains relatively static. (The chromatic line actually implies dominant and you can argue about that , but it basically "goes back " or maybe back-and-forth.)

Anyway, sorry to be a nerd , but want to be clear on terminology. Maybe I'm wrong on some point?

That makes sense seeing as CESH stands for chromatic embellishment over a static harmony, or a contrapuntal elaboration of a static harmony, and a turnaround isn't static. Thanks for being a nerd and clearing that up.

Bass players use these things quite a bit and the term Chromatic Ostinato is sometimes used.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 03-24-2017, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by mrcee

That makes sense seeing as CESH stands for chromatic embellishment over a static harmony, or a contrapuntal elaboration of a static harmony, and a turnaround isn't static. Thanks for being a nerd and clearing that up.

Bass players use these things quite a bit and the term Chromatic Ostinato is sometimes used.

Yeah. :-) The reason I say "nerd" is that, in a jazz context, all kind of chord patterns may be viewed, by real players, as basically being static. You can get bogged down in semantics over these kind of things. Jazz harmony is really a great tesselation, kind of repeating similar patterns at all levels, macro and micro, but it may be worth understanding the basic starting point for the conversation.