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That's a mistake, should be a Bb.
Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
Dominant scale is Barry's name for a major b7 scale. I like it because the name tells you it's application right a way, like major and minor scale. There's no need for Greek mode names in bop IMO, but modern players know them.
There are some significant differences in scale choice over CST - the main one is the way minor dominants are handled, which should be obvious from the sheet. Also no melodic minor or diminished scale stuff here. The handling of these chords using modified dominant scales gives very traditional note choices that you see throughout the music of the pre-modal era. I can't think of anyone else who teaches this off the top of my head.
Beyond that BH is concerned primarily with developing bebop language from the dominant scale. There's lots and lots of ways of doing this. TBH you just have to go and check it out if it interests you, I'm not going to break it down here for you. But, it works very well for developing bop lines in my experience, and I feel it's helped me move beyond being a chord tone player.
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02-04-2017 06:04 AM
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I did this almost exactly two years ago, just what I thought sounded okay. I'm not sure about the bridge. These days I think I'd just use F and Eb major. But, as you know, I'm not very sophisticated :-)
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Christian, just as a matter of interest, I notice on the Barry version A dom is used on the F#7b9. Does that mean one could use any of the four doms over that chord - i.e. A, C, Eb or F#? Providing it sounded okay, presumably.
Last edited by ragman1; 02-04-2017 at 09:49 AM.
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Yes absolutely... (I mean you can always do something that sounds good to you of course, but this is within Barry's formulation) Originally Posted by ragman1
The options I've given are simply the most vanilla...
As with the Pat Martino thing, those four chords unify the most common approaches to dominant in bebop - so on a V7
V dominant - standard, vanilla
bVII7 dominant - backdoor, minor dominant, IVm6, V7b9 especially with optional raised note (I of the chord, bVII of the key)
bII dominant - altered, tritone, often the 4 is raised on this one to give altered, but it leads to some interesting cadences without - VIImaj7 I for example. BH doesn't give a stuff about maj7's on dom chords, so we are free to play things like that.
and ... III dominant - this is an interesting one. I have heard Adam Rogers, Django and a few others use a III sound on V7. It's not something I've mucked about with much.
And all four chords together give you the half-whole scale, of course.
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Right, thanks, there's a lot there. Of course, if I'd simply tried it out myself I'd know by now. But you've coughed up magnificently. Originally Posted by christianm77
I wonder what it's like being called Clemency Burton-Hill?
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Anybody listed the Mark Levine. CST yet? I don't think it's the same as the Barry Harris scales.
Last edited by rintincop; 02-05-2017 at 12:25 PM.
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Right. So the prime difference in choice of the scales, rather than method of thinking, that's what I meant. Instead of looking at the chord shape and see all those notes available, mapping out the fretboard. The CC way, it still works best for me on standards. Originally Posted by christianm77
Btw Barry Harris, from attending his lecture once, teaches a lot of 8 notes scales (bebop scales?), which sound kind of cool. I'd use the for the analyses, why not?
Personally, I want to move further away from the scale-ish sounding solos, and even single note lines in general. One of the guys here, on the forum, Jonathan Stout, showcasing a great style in his videos, kinda chord based soloing, it really works for the gigs I usually play. I want to move more in that direction. The new is the long forgotten old (the Russian saying)
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Man, that sounds great, just a perfect treatment for this tune! What approach did you use, scales, chord tones, purely melodic thinking, a bit of everything? It didn't sound to me too heavy on scales though, which is why I like it. Originally Posted by ragman1
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No it is kind of different. It's hard to explain, and I am reluctant to go into great detail with something that is 1) somebody's lively-hood and 2) quite specific and detailed in application. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
But I will say that the one big difference is BH gives you tools to generate language out of scales while CST is concerned more with scale/harmonic choices. The nearest thing might be the pattern books that some people use, but again, it's all about the rapid fire application of stuff.
(BTW the common CST choices - melodic minor harmony etc - are actually largely included within the BH theory, although BH's theory covers several common harmonic choices which are not much discussed by Mark Levine for instance. Barry was also a keen dancer in his youth, and gives the common notion that bebop killed dancing short shrift.)
Also CST is a theory of jazz harmony while BH is all about 'doing it.' Talking about his stuff feels like missing the point. Do it. Practice the 1-7 scale stuff on a tune and see what it does. Or don't. Whatever.
I'm not trying to sell Barry's approach. Suffice to say I feel it has worked for me and I find his approach to pitch choice seems to accurately reflect bebop practice as I see it in the historical music.
I got a lot of information from Jonathan's blog regarding early jazz guitar, and it helped set me up for learning to play this music more stylistically back in 2010 or so. It was a dancer friend of mine who recommended him actually - Jonathan is well known in the Swing dance world as you probably know, and it's good to see he is also gaining a reputation in the guitar world.Btw Barry Harris, from attending his lecture once, teaches a lot of 8 notes scales (bebop scales?), which sound kind of cool. I'd use the for the analyses, why not?
Personally, I want to move further away from the scale-ish sounding solos, and even single note lines in general. One of the guys here, on the forum, Jonathan Stout, showcasing a great style in his videos, kinda chord based soloing, it really works for the gigs I usually play. I want to move more in that direction. The new is the long forgotten old (the Russian saying)
(Incidentally, a lot of things - such as CST, use of major seventh chords etc - that Jonathan attributes to the bebop era, are actually later developments. His approach and Barry's have more common ground than Barry and Mark Levine's, actually.)
It did get to the point where my playing was very arpeggio-y (probably influence of Django, who I transcribed a fair amount of and also practicing arpeggio stuff on changes.) I also copped a lot of Charlie Christian.
But more recently I want to develop phrases of a different character, and get back into scales. I like scalar figures, they can sound fantastic. Even the early guys used scales - and why wouldn't they? But the BH system also covers my favourite harmonic choices from my transcriptions etc rather neatly.
BH's 8-note scale stuff was always very useful for chord soloing and walking chords though. Don't know if anyone actually did this back in the day. All the Allan Reuss stuff etc sounds more triadic to my ears. The Goerge Van Eps book has some nice exercises.Last edited by christianm77; 02-04-2017 at 03:26 PM.
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Anyway I don't know Mark Levine's thing, but these are the CST scales I would use, minimising 'avoid notes' so I could use whatever intervallic stuff I wanted.
| D lydian | Bb diminished whole-half | A dorian | perhaps D altered |
| G lydian | G melodic minor | F# altered | B altered |
| E lydian dominant | A altered | D dorian | % |
In terms of parent scales:
| A maj/C | Bb dim | G maj/A | Eb mel min/D |
| D major | G mel min | G mel min (woot!) /F#| C mel min/B |
| B mel min/E | Bb mel min/A | Cmaj/D | % |
What do you think of my choices - are they what you would think of as standard?
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[QUOTE=christianm77;738878]Anyway I don't know Mark Levine's thing, but these are the CST scales I would use, minimising 'avoid notes' so I could use whatever intervallic stuff I wanted.
| D lydian | Bb diminished whole-half | A dorian | perhaps D altered |
| G lydian | G melodic minor | F# altered | B altered |
| E lydian dominant | A altered | D dorian | % |
I have no idea what is "standard", but I'd offer this.
The first chord is Dmaj7 and the first note (on one of bar 1, after the pickup notes) is an A.
That sticks in my ear. So,when you solo, D Ionian is going to sound most consonant. So, you're idea is to go with D lydian to create more interest. The difference is that D lydian has a G#. So, where the listener sort of is expecting an A (if they know the melody) maybe you're going to give them a G#. (Of course, Dlyd has an A also, it's the G that became G#, not the A becoming Ab). So, that's an artistic choice.
I'm not sure about F#alt. It's probably good though because it's the same notes as Gmelmin, which preceeds it. Balt (Cmelmin) sounds good to me, but so does F#melmin.
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I did practice the scale stuff, it didn't open many doors for me. The one you provided is a beginner stuff I understand, still I did use it as the main guidance years ago, it was a good insight into the language, but that's about it. Originally Posted by christianm77
The chord tones method did open a lot of doors, but the trick is to experiment and find those sweet (to each ear their own) tones by simply playing. Kind of trial and error within the system, but leaving the errors at home and taking the good stuff to the bandstand.
The chord tones doesn't mean you are not using the scales of course, it's just they are byproduct of thinking how to connect the chords. In the end, you end up playing them, only you don't need to apply the names to the lines, they are born naturally after figuring out how go from chord to chord. You don't wanna just to play arpeggios all the time anyway. Again obvious stuff, but something no one ever told me, because everyone is talking SCALES in jazz all the time!
BH method is good though, much preferred over CST for me, if I had a goal to be a pure bebop player I would be using his method as well.
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Well I find it's a great way to get to know a chord progression along with 1 3 5 on everything. But I like to practice beginner stuff. To me there's no such thing as beginner stuff. It's called 'getting to know a tune properly.' Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
Yeah I went on a big anti-scale thing for years cos of that. Did me the power of good.The chord tones method did open a lot of doors, but the trick is to experiment and find those sweet (to each ear their own) tones by simply playing. Kind of trial and error within the system, but leaving the errors at home and taking the good stuff to the bandstand.
The chord tones doesn't mean you are not using the scales of course, it's just they are byproduct of thinking how to connect the chords. In the end, you end up playing them, only you don't need to apply the names to the lines, they are born naturally after figuring out how go from chord to chord. You don't wanna just to play arpeggios all the time anyway. Again obvious stuff, but something no one ever told me, because everyone is talking SCALES in jazz all the time!
But in the end - scales, even fancy pants CST woo-woo scales, are resources, and nothing should be off limits if you like the sound of it.
TBH many people who talk up this or that harmony thing could probably do with knuckling down and practicing REALLY simple stuff on everything, properly learning heads, learning lots of music by ear and getting it so that everything sings. Then you can pop in a #11 and everyone is like 'WOO!'
It's what the pros do. Seriously. But I daresay I preach to the choir.
That's what it's for. But I might add a side note that many players have become awesome at bop without any help from Barry. It's merely an option....BH method is good though, much preferred over CST for me, if I had a goal to be a pure bebop player I would be using his method as well.
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Now, that I can sign on with wholeheartedly! To make everything sing is an ongoing battle, maybe a lifetime battle, and the most important. Originally Posted by christianm77
No gig on a Sat.. something I played didn't sing properly, now someone else got a call. A very simple fact of life. Brutal honesty. I think I'm gonna shut up now and actually play Wave, more use in that! haha
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Same changes really with just a bit more colour. Basically, parallel ii-V-Is (Gm7-C7-Fmaj7 to Fm7-Bb7-Ebmaj7) with some extensions, e.g Gm6/Bb is C9 in 3rd inversion, Bb74(9) ? is Fm7/Bb and iii subs for I (Am7 for Fmaj7). Originally Posted by destinytot
They're pretty close to what Jobim is playing on the original and a nice change from generic ii-V-I voicings. The only difference I hear to Chediak's chords is a plain C7 in 3rd inversion (C/Bb) rather than C9 or Gm6/Bb. Ditto for the following Fm6/Ab change. It's a little difficult to make out as the strings are always present at that point in the tune.
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The bit in bold throws it off for me - I like a clean Fmaj7/A now. (To F6/A.) Originally Posted by PMB
Last edited by destinytot; 02-04-2017 at 07:36 PM.
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Yeah, that's nice as well. I'll sometimes move from A-7 to Fmaj7/A or even walk down A-7, G-7 Fmaj7. As an alternative, Jobim occasionally adds the F on the 2nd string: 5x556. Originally Posted by destinytot
I wonder if Chediak worked closely with Jobim on those books. What I like about them are all the voicings that incorporate open strings. I called Triste at an afternoon gig yesterday and insisted we play it in A rather than Bb (the horn player's choice) for that very reason. Check out the Triste chart from the same sample you posted, Mike - chock full of open string goodness!
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Yes - the open strings. I've had the books (seven in total) for decades, and I'm just getting back into them. Originally Posted by PMB
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Chord/scale associations per the Levine book.
| D ionian | Bb diminished whole/half | A dorian | D7 diminished half-whole |
| G ionian | G melodic minor | F#7 altered | B altered |
| E lydian dominant | A altered | D dorian | % |
Last edited by rintincop; 02-06-2017 at 02:22 PM.
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Everything, as you say. What sounded right to me at the time. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
Analysed (I don't do this for everybody!) like this:
Intro/Outro vamp: Dm7 triad ACF to G triad BDG over pedal D
Tune.
Solo:
A: Diatonic... till
Single note Bb over F#7
B and D notes over E7
Dm blues at end.
B: DM7 arp to E note over Bbo
Am7 arp over Am7/D7b9
G melodic minor line over Gm6 (natural E)
C# and Bb over F#7
Am blues over B7/E7
Dm blues at end.
Bridge: G melodic minor line over Gm7 (nat E as before)
C# melodic minor over C7 (C alt)
Dm arp over FM7
F dorian over Fm7
F melodic minor over Bb7
Dm arp over EbM7 (lydian)
A note over A7b9
D: Last 8 bars tune again
Lots of Dm blues at end
C# twiddle over end chord DM7 (thought it sounded good)
I don't remember working it out strictly speaking, but I must have played with it a bit. Incidentally, the Dm blues at the ends of the sections is good. Although the notes of the tune look like an Fm, they're not. It's Dm pentatonic with the Ab blue note cleverly stuck over the Bb7, so Dm blues is fine for improvising.
Thanks for asking
Last edited by ragman1; 02-05-2017 at 06:59 PM.
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oh i wasn't completely wrong then... Why d7 h-w i wonder and not something else? Originally Posted by rintincop
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That chord is a D7b9. One way to think about it is that the E in the Am7 is eventually going to move to a D in Gmaj7.
So, having an Eb in between (meaning, on top of a D7) makes it flow nicely. On guitar, some might play the Am7 as 5x555x so there's that E right at the top of the chord, where you can hear and then you pass it down to Eb and then D as the chords change.
As far as improvising over it, you've got D7b9, so the chord tones are D F# A C Eb.
Notes that are more likely to conflict are the major 7th and the natural 9th, so you're going to avoid C# and E.
If you want the listener to hear the chord change to a D7, that requires that you move the G in the Am7 to an F# -- and avoid the G.
For the sake of discussion, I'll call C#, E and G "avoid notes". Of course a great player could use all three of them in a lick and make it sound great.
Now there's a question about how you're going to handle the 5th. The chord has a natural 5th, which is A. The Am7 has an A and the Gmaj7, obviously has a G, so, an Ab in between (meaning D7b9#11) will make sense. You could also argue for an A# right there, since that A can move to A# and then B, which is the 3rd of the Gmaj7.
Now lets compare what we've got with at D HW:
D Eb F F# G# A B C.
If this was a chord it would be D7b9#11 (with a natural 13).
DHW doesn't have any of the three avoid notes. So, it doesn't have any clams.
It has a #11 and natural 13. I don't see those extensions as inevitable in this case. You could elect to use a b13 instead of a natural 13. You could use a 5th (although the flow might not be quite as smooth) and you could use a #5.
Depending on which choices you make, you'll get different scales. I'd probably have to use that website that inputs notes and outputs scale names to figure out what to call them.
BUT, what is happening here is that you've got a D7 and, mostly, you're making choices about how to play the 5ths and 9ths. Secondarily, you're deciding whether to stick with a natural 13th or flat it.
What I think is that a jazz musician should have the sounds of altered 5ths and 9ths internalized -- or be working hard to get there.
At that point, naming the different scales may not seem all that important. For example, say you're choosing between D mixo and D lyd dominant. The scale names are labels which basically mean that one has a 4th and 5th and the other has a raised 4th. Why not just think of them as a D7 scale vs a D7#11 scale? The answer, as I understand it is that this type of naming convention can't handle situations in which the same chord may have different harmonic functions. Frankly, I'm not sure. I vacillate.
Sorry for the long winded response, but it was a deep question that you asked.
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not at all, thanks for the in depth answer. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
it amuses me the extent to whihc cst improvisers take extensions in chord charts seriously, as opposed to the barry harris approach where we essentially ignore them.
personally i mix up scales. i'm not a huge user of dim scales on 7b9 chords and leading tone dim7's - i tend to use minor dominant approaches which seems to be bebop standard practice. but i do use dim scales on non leading tone dim7s and i think it's a cool sound.
i think very often there's one note that defines the scale. for example the thing that really makes a 7b9 sound into an altered sound is indeed the b5, otherwise it's just a minor dominant.
but the half-whole is not the default old school choice over this chord, and it bothers me that levine's materials don't encapsulate the traditional choices. tbf it's quite easy to confuse minor dominant for half-whole, but the tell tale note is the nat 13.
avoid notes on dominant chords are, to my mind, a load of old rubbish (there are non imo), but people need something to worry about i guess
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First, thank you for the thoughtful reply.
If you would be kind enough to explain something ... when you say "minor dominant" does that refer to a specific scale, or is it a group of scales (e.g. phrygian, doriant, aeolian etc)?
<i think very often there's one note that defines the scale. for example the thing that really makes a 7b9 sound into an altered sound is indeed the b5, otherwise it's just a minor dominant. >>
For me, it's the #5 and #9 that defines alt (to my ear). I think it's because I tend to play #5#9 when I see alt. So, G7alt is, often, xx3446. To my ear b9b5 sounds like a standard tritone -- not a problem, but not my particular choice for alt. Then, for G7b5#9 I might tend to think about xx5666, but I don't like the sound quite as much. Might be different if I played piano.
<but the half-whole is not the default old school choice over this chord, and it bothers me that levine's materials don't encapsulate the traditional choices. tbf it's quite easy to confuse minor dominant for half-whole, but the tell tale note is the nat 13.>
I've read Levine, but can't recall anything more than HW or maybe mixo with a b9. I'll have to take a look at his book again.
<avoid notes on dominant chords are, to my mind, a load of old rubbish (there are non imo), but people need something to worry about i guess[/QUOTE]>
When I transcribe, I usually just do a passage that is ear-catching in a good way. Oftentimes, those passages emphasize avoid notes. That is b7 against nat7, vice versa, same sort of thing with minor and major thirds and so forth. I do recall Levine mentioning that sometimes the avoid note will be the prettiest note you can possibly play, or words to that effect.
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Levine rule:
On Dominant 7th b9 chords play the HALF/WHOLE diminished scale. It's done by Horace Silver and most hard bop and jazz players from the 60's ... (the be bop-ers didn't have the most advanced sense of scale usage; Coltrane, Bill Evans, Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter and Miles Davis expanded the scale/harmony menu)
On D7b9 play half/whole diminished scale (per Levine by default) D Eb F F# G# A B CLast edited by rintincop; 02-06-2017 at 02:26 PM.
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