Wave (Jobim) Analysis using Barry Harris Method

[bossa]

Hi guys, How are you?

I was wondering if you could help get the logic around this composition using the Barry Harris method.

Progression:

D7M Bbº Am7 D7(b9) G7M Gm6 F#7(13) F#7(b13) B7(9)sus4

I never saw anyone doing an analysis using his method, so here we go and correct if I am wrong please.

My goal is to discover the logic behind the method to apply to my own compositions.

First two chordsD7M Bbº) scales: D6diminished scale | D6 chord + Dbdim7 chord

Am7 , using the tritone minor's of D = Bbm6 dim scale, that way we have the notes of Adim7 and we can borrow it to form the Am7 and some other chords after.

Is that the way to think about and to analyze it? Am I correct?

Thanks.

[bossa]

Or is it better to think like this?

D6(D7M) - Bbdim(Em6?) - C6(Am7) - Am6(D7b9) - D6(G7M) -Gm6 -C#m6(F#7) - Am6(B7sus).

Scales used: D6dim and tritones minor of D7(Ebm6dim) or A7(Bbm6dim)

[grahambop]

Some basic rules for this are as follows (using C chord as an example):

C maj : use C6/dim

Cmin: use Eb6/dim (or Cmin6/dim if you want the min6 sound)

C7 : use Gmin6/dim

C7alt: use Dbmin6/dim. Or use Edim chord, or Gdim, or Bbdim, or Dbdim, these give a C7b9 sound.

Cdim: use Cdim chord and move it in minor thirds (obviously!). You can also move around on dim chords using whole-half-whole-half steps if you want more movement, this also applies to the C7b9 useage above.

Cmin7b5 : use Ebmin6/dim.

[christianm77]

I think (for BH scale purposes)

D6 | A7(b9) | D7 | % |
G6 | C7 | F#7 | B7 |
E7 | A7 | G7 | % |

Notice we tend not to worry about the extensions. You might want to try minor doms on some of those chords. I would play the second chord A7b9:

C B A G F E D C#

So that's C7 going into the third of A7.

[christianm77]

I would regard that as the vanilla changes BTW - your options also work.

The minor's dominant into the 3rd is an essential part of getting the bop sound on dom7b9s though.

[rintincop]

I think (for BH scale purposes)

D6 | A7(b9) | D7 | % |
G6 | C7 | F#7 | B7 |
E7 | A7 | G7 | % |

Agreed.
But I would come up with that same analysis even if I had never heard of BH and was just using traditional jazz theory.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I think of Wave as Jobim's take on a 12 bar blues

[bossa]

Hi guys,

thank you for your reply, I really, really appreciated.

It's just like nosoyninja said:

it just seems that regular "modal" analysis of chord progressions isn't as exciting and logical as this other way.

By modal analysis I simply meant using numbers as functions of the chord progression (ii-V7, etc). Like when you find yourself asking: "what the heck is this bIII7 b9 b13 doing there!... oh, it's just an inversion of a 6th diminished chord". I just find it's easier to understand and visualize the motion of voices in a chord progression when I think of it all in this framework.

I feel this way and I would like to think and use B.H'sa method exclusively, to analyze other songs and to reharm and to compose.

I am currently a student @ jazzschoolonline.com and Howard told me to transform everything into 6th chords.

It's what I did here:
D6(D7M) - Bbdim(Em6?) - C6(Am7) - Am6(D7b9) - D6(G7M) -Gm6 -C#m6(F#7) - Am6(B7sus).

Scales used: D6dim and tritones minor of D7(Ebm6dim) or A7(Bbm6dim)

Am I overthinking this? Usually I would try to find the tonal center, put numbers on it, the usual method, but I think is too subjective, everything could be everything!!! That's one of the reasons I'd rather the Barry Harris's way.

By the way, do you think his method is for bebop/jazz exclusively? I would like to use this way of thinking reharm and composing other styles as well.

Thanks again.

[grahambop]

I'm not sure I can add much here, I don't really analyse tunes in that way. I really use the Barry Harris chord system for 2 purposes: (1) to create more chord movement to make more interesting comping; (2) to help play chord solos along the lines of Wes Montgomery for example.

To achieve this I simply apply the method I described in post no. 3 above.

I wouldn't convert a diminished chord to a m6th chord for example, I'll just leave it as diminished.

[christianm77]

My analysis is based on BH's single line stuff, I think you are more interested in the harmonic side of it?

[lawson-stone]

I doubt it's a BH analysis, but I have always been intrigued by the chromatic descending line created by the changes of the A section, and how at points it serves as a pedal tone between chords of different qualities:

DM7/Bbº7/Am7/ D7/G/Gm7/F#7/B7/Bm7 E7/Bbm7 Ebm7/ Dm...

D..../Db.../C..../...../B/Bb.../....../A../....../Ab/Ab.......G....

[bossa]

Thanks again for all your help.

My analysis is based on BH's single line stuff, I think you are more interested in the harmonic side of it?

Yes, harmonic side of it using B.H and using your example as well.

@grahambop Your work on My Romance pdf, is amazing and is helping learn so much, thanks.

In your post here, you just outline the basic scales we could use using B.H, so that's the way to reharm and improv , right? What about composing, you would think like that as well?

What about the way I use the tritones's minor to come up with the Am7 notes, is this correct? Is there an easier way?

What's more, When we encounter a chord that has no relationship with the chord before, no diminished related, no dominant, how do we apply the B.H movement between them, linking then?

Relationships:

C6dim scale: C6 = C E G A
Bdim7 = B D F Ab
Dom7 = Bb7 Db 7 E7 G7
Min Thirds apart = C.Cm,Eb,Ebm,Gb,Gbm,A,Am
bIIIdim = Ebdim,Gbdim,Adim,Cdim

Then there are the ways to get more extensions depending of the quality of the chords, its just amazing.

Like Graham wrote: Progression: / Bb Cm / Dm Dbdim / Cm F7 / Bb D7 /

"Bar 3: Ebdim gives an F7 alt sound.
F11 b9 – I tried this shape because I like the sound of it and it seems to fit. To derive it from the BH system, I would see it as based on F#dim (i.e. Cdim) on the top 4 strings (page 8 diminished chord shape). Cdim gives the F7b9 sound. Then borrow the 2 top notes (F and Bb) from the next chord which Cdim relates to. This would be Db6. For the explanation see page 14 – Maj 6ths have a related Diminished chord on their 7th degree. (Or just look at the page 8 chord tables – Edim is the related diminished chord for F). The next Db6 voicing going up would be page 8, 5th in bass voicing. This chord gives the 2 top notes I wanted, F and Bb.
This is a bit long-winded, I chose the chord without thinking about all this. But I like to know how Barry’s system might explain it."

Thanks.

[grahambop]

Thanks for the comments!

I'm not really talking about scales here, I'm talking about the chords, creating movement on the chords. I don't really re-harm that much and I don't compose, so can't say much about that.

I don't consciously use the chord system to help me improvise in single-line playing , but I think it has made me more aware of the inner voices of the chords and in this sense, it might have improved some of the note choices I can hear and select.

I don't understand what you mean by 'tritones minor' to get Am7. I will use Bbmin6 to get an A7 alt sound (= A7#5b9 ). I don't really see how you will get Amin7 from this. For Amin7 I just use C6.

Where the next chord is not obviously related to the previous one, you can just find the nearest chord voicing (I mean physically on the fretboard). So you will get a smoother transition between them.

Hope that helps. Have to say I am not massively into theory. I just find the BH chord system a cool way to move chords and harmonies around and make nice sounds.

[bossa]

Graham, Thanks for you answer and help.

I just find the BH chord system a cool way to move chords and harmonies around and make nice sounds.

Me too but I think we can do more than that.

That's the way I thought, I don't know if it's right.
I tried to find one scale to fit all chords on that progression, so when I compose that logic can help me.

So I used: Scales used: D6dim( for the majority of the chords) and tritones minor of D7(Ebm6dim) or A7(Bbm6dim).

For a dominant chord we can use the dim6thscale a fifth from it's tritone, so I did, and I could find the notes for Am7 and more extensions the progression/chords had.

I don't know if my logic is correct how to think about creating a progression like that from scratch using B.H's.

My analysis is based on BH's single line stuff

Christian I am interested in everything!! All the help you can give is welcome.

Thanks.

[ragman1]

Hi guys, How are you?

I was wondering if you could help get the logic around this composition using the Barry Harris method.

Progression:

D7M Bbº Am7 D7(b9) G7M Gm6 F#7(13) F#7(b13) B7(9)sus4

Sorry, I know absolutely nothing about the BH method. In fact, I'm rather wary of 'new theories', they tend to be the good old stuff dressed up a bit to confuse us.

However, I suspect - open to correction - that you want to know how to solo round Wave, at least the A part. I can tell you it's one of the most infuriatingly tricky pieces - if you want to make it sound any good.

First, some of your chords aren't standard. The F#13/F#7b13 is okay but then you do this B sus thing. I've taken that, although it's usually a B7b9.

Anyway, it's those chords that cause the problem. I don't think I've heard one (pro) solo that has really nailed it. Even Jobim himself is a bit loose.

So I make it like this (if you're interested!):

Dm7/G13 vamp ---- C maj but played quartal (fourth intervals)

DM7 ---- D maj
Bbo ---- Bb dim arp or scale
Am7 ---- G maj but sparingly on the F#s

D7b9 ---- G harm, more Cm6
GM7 ---- G maj
Gm6 ---- G mel

F#13/F#7b13 ---- F# alt (G mel) as you're already on it ---- or maybe F# whole-tone
B sus ---- sort of D maj/F#m - definitely no D#s ---- or B harm (as it's a sus chord it can be either maj or min)
E7 ---- B harm ---- or Em blues gives a nice effect

Bb13/A7b9 - Dm7 ---- Dm blues (D E F G Ab A B C D)

At the right speed it's fairly brisk so think in terms of the overall effect rather than one sound at a time. It's a wave!

You'll notice I haven't 'analysed' the progression. That's because even after it's been thoroughly torn to pieces you've still got to play it :-)

[destinytot]

Sorry, I know absolutely nothing about the BH method. In fact, I'm rather wary of 'new theories', they tend to be the good old stuff dressed up a bit to confuse us.

However, I suspect - open to correction - that you want to know how to solo round Wave, at least the A part. I can tell you it's one of the most infuriatingly tricky pieces - if you want to make it sound any good.

Ouch!

Not a question of 'new theories'; I think what counts is that Barry Harris's harmonic approach makes for sublimely beautiful sounds - especially voicings on guitar. (Personally, I long for the day when I don't need 'grips' at all - and can luxuriate in the movement and flow of the music.)

Neither is the theory/approach especially 'hard'; it's just 'slow' - and that's a blessing. I thing Alan Kingstone's book is remarkable in this regard; it seems to me that its guidance and reference material is conceived for self-starters.

[ragman1]

Ouch!

Not a question of 'new theories'; I think what counts is that Barry Harris's harmonic approach makes for sublimely beautiful sounds - especially voicings on guitar. (Personally, I long for the day when I don't need 'grips' at all - and can luxuriate in the movement and flow of the music.)

Neither is the theory/approach especially 'hard'; it's just 'slow' - and that's a blessing. I thing Alan Kingstone's book is remarkable in this regard; it seems to me that its guidance and reference material is conceived for self-starters.

My wariness of the latest theories, including Martino, is born of looking at them and finding there's nothing new under the sun. Like I said, I know nothing of what BH says. The thought of having to add this b6 business to the already very large pile of playing knowledge is a bit galling.

You might be interested in this book. Go down to page 12 - 'The Bebop Major Scale'.

David baker vol 1 - the bebop scales and other scales in common use

My post was based on the idea - and I'm not sure it's just an idea - that the OP's question is just looking for a way to solo over that section he posted. Perhaps he might get it if he tries the b6 stuff! That's all.

[christianm77]

Here is a Wave mapped partially using Barry Harris's approach to scales for linear improvisation - here in the starting form of 1-7, 1-7-1 (and on some scales such as down to the 3rd, 7-1.)

The gaps are left as an exercise to the student. :-)

If you don't know how this works, I can recommend Roni Ben Hurr or Barry Harris's own videos.

[bossa]

Hi guys,

I was wondering how to come up with those chords/progression using B.H method...Which scale(s) to use???

What's the logic behind it? How to think like that?

Then I read this @ Evolutionary Voicings, Part 1 – Howard Rees' Jazz Workshops

Another twist to the borrowed tone idea: Since the diminished 7th chord represents four dominant 7th chords, why not “borrow” the root of one of those dominants for use in a diminished 7th voicing? When it creates a major 7th with the dropped note of the voicing, it can be most effective, as you see with the E in the second voicing, the D flat in the fourth, the B flat in the sixth, and the G in the eighth.

I didn't know we could borrow the root for the related dominats.

Using that approach and applying on this progression: D7M Bbº Am7 D7(b9) G7M Gm6 F#7(13) F#7(b13) B7(9)sus4

We could use the D6diminished scale and the related dominants roots to compose the progression with all the extensions. Awesome!!!

What else can we borrow? I read somewhere we can borrow from other sixths as well? How? What's the theory behind it?

Thanks.

[destinytot]

My wariness of the latest theories, including Martino, is born of looking at them and finding there's nothing new under the sun. Like I said, I know nothing of what BH says. The thought of having to add this b6 business to the already very large pile of playing knowledge is a bit galling.

You might be interested in this book. Go down to page 12 - 'The Bebop Major Scale'.

David baker vol 1 - the bebop scales and other scales in common use

My post was based on the idea - and I'm not sure it's just an idea - that the OP's question is just looking for a way to solo over that section he posted. Perhaps he might get it if he tries the b6 stuff! That's all.

Thanks for that link.

Right now, I'm more interested in Barry Harris's harmonic approach than the melodic application of bebop scales - though, "One nevers knows, do one?" - and I thought the OP was, too. Sorry if I've misread this:

Yes, harmonic side of it using B.H and using your example as well.

[christianm77]

Re: Wave, it occurs to me that all the chords in the first few bars belong to the D maj6-dim and G maj6-dim scales.

Dmaj7 Bbo7 --> D maj6-dim
Am7 D7 Gma7 --> G maj6-dim
Gm6 --? Dmaj6-dim

After that we have a classic dominant turnback (from III) and then into the minor key.

Personally my applications of this scales are rather unsophisticated compared to some, but one thing I take away from it is that you can always use a minor ii-V in place of a major ii-V.

Another is that IV-IVm6-I can be understood via the same scale, so is also a similar type of resolution to the ii-V-I. This is bourne out by studying bop and swing language where the two things are often superimposed. (You know about that right, ragman? I've heard you mention it.)

It unifies a lot of standard movements and opens the possiblity of other movements that create the same sesne of cadence through the use of diminished notes. I don't feel I use this much in my playing, but I understand theoretically how it works.

[christianm77]

My wariness of the latest theories, including Martino, is born of looking at them and finding there's nothing new under the sun. Like I said, I know nothing of what BH says. The thought of having to add this b6 business to the already very large pile of playing knowledge is a bit galling.

You might be interested in this book. Go down to page 12 - 'The Bebop Major Scale'.

David baker vol 1 - the bebop scales and other scales in common use

My post was based on the idea - and I'm not sure it's just an idea - that the OP's question is just looking for a way to solo over that section he posted. Perhaps he might get it if he tries the b6 stuff! That's all.

Okay - here we go again.

1) The major 6th diminished scale and the bebop major scale are entirely different in use despite sharing the same note.

2) The BH's single note scale system does not utilise the idea of a 'bebop scale' - rather added notes which can be chromatic or diatonic are added to stepwise scales to make them work rhythmically using a set of rules that once mastered allow a lot of flexibility. Bakers bebop scales are a special case of this system.

Biggest bit of confusion about Barry's system. Bebop scales are not a Barry concept - they are a David Baker concept, and consequently a mainstream jazz education concept. Barry himself dislikes the term.

The BH system is self contained - borrowing bits from it and depositing in an existing understanding - for example a CST one - can be really confusing.

[ragman1]

Will someone PLAY these things instead of just printing them? Anybody can do that. Sorry, but there's a terrible danger that printing something out gives the impression one knows all about it. When in fact...

I can play all my stuff!

[christianm77]

Will someone PLAY these things instead of just printing them? Anybody can do that. Sorry, but there's a terrible danger that printing something out gives the impression one knows all about it. When in fact...

I can play all my stuff!

Who is this directed at exactly?

I'm happy to an audio though.

[destinytot]

Will someone PLAY these things instead of just printing them? Anybody can do that. Sorry, but there's a terrible danger that printing something out gives the impression one knows all about it. When in fact...

I can play all my stuff!