Chord scale theory is the opposite of...

**sunnysideup** · 01-04-2018, 02:53 PM

I wonder if some of the great players on this forum could add their view as to what’s happening around 42-45 seconds, not just what’s happening , but why it’s so great

Chris Whiteman
Grahambop
Jack Zucker
M-Ster
TruthHertz
Reg
Kris
Jens

Apologies to anyone I’ve left off…

sorry, a quick edit, and the Dutch Bopper of course!

**mr. beaumont** · 01-04-2018, 03:39 PM

Not a great player, but yeah, there's the augmented triad on the minor chord...so why does it sound great?

Well, in my opinion it's great on several levels...

First, to my ears its an inside-outside-in lick. So the first augmented triad suggests Gm/maj7, and the lick ends firmly on a G, getting us back in.

The middle sounds great because it's unexpected, yet easy to latch on to due to the symmetrical movement of what introduced it.

And it's played by Wes, so it swing, deep in the groove. You can play that lick square and out of pocket and won't sound nearly as good.

**christianm77** · 01-04-2018, 03:43 PM

Sunny - the line at 0:42 is what I'm talking about re: the whole tone thing, if you haven't twigged.

**christianm77** · 01-04-2018, 03:43 PM

If you'll forgive the re-post, I attach a couple of relevant link:

From bar 9 of his solo or so, I hear a series of ascending aug triads each one a tone higher than the last (which makes F# whole tone played in ascending triads) - right The phrase starts with a lower neighbour chromatic tone... (Time stamp later....)

Here's a link/analysis
Symmetric Solutions: The Whole Tone Workbook Book/CD Set - BRUCE SAUNDERS - Google Books

This all happens on the G Minor 7 chord and the phrase resolves into the Cm7 F7....

The rhythm is nice - in 8ths - 3 - 3 - 3 - 3 - 3 against the beat, classic stuff...

This is where I heard of it first. I remember thinking, that sounds like some theory bullshit, then I heard Wes do it :-)

**sunnysideup** · 01-04-2018, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Sunny - the line at 0:42 is what I'm talking about re: the whole tone thing, if you haven't twigged.

I twigged don't worry, and I really appreciate your jumping in feet first.

But let's give some space to the other guys.

**Jonah** · 01-04-2018, 03:50 PM

great players

but why it’s so great

only greats of teh greats invited to say why the great of the great Wes is so great?

Seriously.. what's youtr idea about it?
I am probaby the opposite side of the great (wall)...
since it's free forum I will aloow myself to make a comment too.

I think the effect comes from a few apects combined

1) melodic structure of ascending agmented triads... this often brings in that outside-ish effect epecial in whole tone movement.. a bit surrealistic thing - like some stable well-understood things suddenly become unreal
2) maj7 over G minor and nat E (G dorian) - together it makes kind of melodic minor with Phrygianb2... or whole-tone scale half step above the root
4) rythmic phrasing and resolution at the end to straight Gm

**sunnysideup** · 01-04-2018, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Not a great player, but yeah, there's the augmented triad on the minor chord...so why does it sound great?

Well, in my opinion it's great on several levels...

First, to my ears its an inside-outside-in lick. So the first augmented triad suggests Gm/maj7, and the lick ends firmly on a G, getting us back in.

The middle sounds great because it's unexpected, yet easy to latch on to due to the symmetrical movement of what introduced it.

And it's played by Wes, so it swing, deep in the groove. You can play that lick square and out of pocket and won't sound nearly as good.

Monsieur Beaumont, I want to apologise for something I said to you a couple of years ago, in many ways you are the epitome of the jazz spirit, and I am sorry if I said anything that might have inhibited you. I still don't understand how you get such great video and sound off a phone. But that's a different thread.

"But" your views and Christian's are well known. I'd really like to hear from some of the other guys, and I think you would agree they are all great players.

**christianm77** · 01-04-2018, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by Jonah

only greats of teh greats invited to say why the great of the great Wes is so great?

Seriously.. what's youtr idea about it?

+1

**mr. beaumont** · 01-04-2018, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by sunnysideup

Monsieur Beaumont, I want to apologise for something I said to you a couple of years ago, in many ways you are the epitome of the jazz spirit, and I am sorry if I said anything that might have inhibited you.

No worries, whatever it was I don't remember it...and my inhibitions are few. Fewer in a few hours, too, as I have a bottle of Laphrohaig I'll be opening tonight.

But I will let the others che in, but only afterm one more quick observation...

That first shape is just D augmented, too...so it's just V on i...sets up the whole tone idea, moves it up symmetrically, resolves...

Ok, enough, I'll sit back a bit...

**christianm77** · 01-04-2018, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by sunnysideup

I twigged don't worry, and I really appreciate your jumping in feet first.

But let's give some space to the other guys.

The implication that, for example, Zucker would need to be given space to say his piece about anything is amusing to me.

The forum is always a product of whoever is hanging around, and today it happens to be me, you, Jonah and Jeff wasting each other's time.

Jumping in feet first is what I do, and I'm old enough and ugly enough to 1) see how it might annoy some people and 2) that I am really not going to change.

Deal with it, princess xx

**Boston Joe** · 01-04-2018, 05:04 PM

I'm kind of surprised the traffic isn't heavier considering that the entire east coast of the US is presently being buried under mountains of white, fluffy annoyance. I've been working at home all day, but most of my co workers took the day off, so not much to do but read the forum and practice.

**sunnysideup** · 01-04-2018, 05:28 PM

Deal with it, princess xx[/QUOTE]

Is the "princess" supposed to be some kind of put down? Would you like to add sexist grossness to the list of your attributes?

I have a lot of respect for Jack and I am genuinely interested in his analysis. This doesn't mean I agree with Jack on all things.

I'm not sure that he (and some of the others I've mentioned) would be willing to do it for free anyway. We'll see.

And of course this comes back down to how does a "professional" jazz musician earn a living these days.

Everything you've said so far about the Wes performance I've posted could just be a copy and paste job.

**christianm77** · 01-04-2018, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by sunnysideup

Is the "princess" supposed to be some kind of put down? Would you like to add sexist grossness to the list of your attributes?

I really have no compelling reason to care about your opinion of me.

I have a lot of respect for Jack and I am genuinely interested in his analysis. This doesn't mean I agree with Jack on all things.

I have a lot of respect for Jack too. Backwards in coming forwards, however, I think we can agree, he is not.

We've had our clashes, which I have found quite fun.

I'm not sure that he (and some of the others I've mentioned) would be willing to do it for free anyway. We'll see.

And of course this comes back down to how does a "professional" jazz musician earn a living these days.

Everything you've said so far about the Wes performance I've posted could just be a copy and paste job.

*Shrug*

I await your analysis.

**christianm77** · 01-04-2018, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Joe

I'm kind of surprised the traffic isn't heavier considering that the entire east coast of the US is presently being buried under mountains of white, fluffy annoyance. I've been working at home all day, but most of my co workers took the day off, so not much to do but read the forum and practice.

Yeah, I'm not being snowed in and I'm pretty bereft of better things to do but trade laboured banter with some superannuated misanthrope.

The sad thing is, that's actually the case.

Practice is tricky at the moment due to little one. But when it comes to music, she only smiles for Wes.

**Boston Joe** · 01-04-2018, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Yeah, I'm not being snowed in and I'm pretty bereft of better things to do but trade laboured banter with some superannuated misanthrope.

Are you referring to me? I mean "misanthrope" is fine, but "superannuated?" I'm only 51!

Princess.

**rpjazzguitar** · 01-04-2018, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by sunnysideup

I wonder if some of the great players on this forum could add their view as to what’

sorry, a quick edit, and the Dutch Bopper of course!

My view is that it works for the following reasons:

It is preceded by an inside sound and followed by an inside sound.

It is quick.

It is structured. A triad and then the same thing a step up.

What I'm thinking about it whether the fact that it was an augmented triad mattered all that much.

I suspect that he could have played a lot of different triads or short melodic cells right there -- and they'd all have sounded fine if well structured. The structure makes it ear catching enough to create bitonality.

As to why he played it, my guess is that it looks a little bit like the descending lick that preceded it. It's a two finger lick with a slide (is my belief from playing this line) and that puts those two fingers in a position which fits an augmented triad. That, and because he was a genius.

**christianm77** · 01-04-2018, 06:23 PM

*cough* rhythm *cough*?

**sunnysideup** · 01-04-2018, 06:26 PM

Hey, no I'm the "superannuated misanthrope", but a couple of messages before that I was the "princess".

Nice jazz forum eh:-)

But this is all just a smokescreen to disguise a nervousness about analysing a few fragments from "4 on 6" (Wes).

**Boston Joe** · 01-04-2018, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by sunnysideup

Hey, no I'm the "superannuated misanthrope", but a couple of messages before that I was the "princess".

Nice jazz forum eh:-)

But this is all just a smokescreen to disguise a nervousness about analysing a few fragments from "4 on 6" (Wes).

You can't have a good forum without a little badinage. It's part of the fun.

**mr. beaumont** · 01-04-2018, 06:33 PM

It's good to know that even in the absence of Mike McKoy, I'll still have to Google put downs I read here.

Not snowed in here either, we're "colded" in (broke 10 degrees F today for a few hours, woo-hoo!) In between making lego fortresses and breaking up the occasional "we've been off school almost two weeks and I'm fucking sick of you" skirmishes between my littles, this is certainly a nice distraction.

**Boston Joe** · 01-04-2018, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

It's good to know that even in the absence of Mike McKoy, I'll still have to Google put downs I read here.

Not snowed in here either, we're "colded" in (broke 10 degrees F today for a few hours, woo-hoo!) In between making lego fortresses and breaking up the occasional "we've been off school almost two weeks and I'm fucking sick of you" skirmishes between my littles, this is certainly a nice distraction.

That's pretty standard for Chicago, isn't it?

And yeah, I didn't think the "bombogenisis" had gone that far inland.

**sunnysideup** · 01-04-2018, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

My view is that it works for the following reasons:

It is preceded by an inside sound and followed by an inside sound.

It is quick.

It is structured. A triad and then the same thing a step up.

What I'm thinking about it whether the fact that it was an augmented triad mattered all that much.

I suspect that he could have played a lot of different triads or short melodic cells right there -- and they'd all have sounded fine if well structured. The structure makes it ear catching enough to create bitonality.

As to why he played it, my guess is that it looks a little bit like the descending lick that preceded it. It's a two finger lick with a slide (is my belief from playing this line) and that puts those two fingers in a position which fits an augmented triad. That, and because he was a genius.

Hi RP, great analysis, mine is a bit different, can you play it at that speed? If so (or not so) would you like to post a clip?

**christianm77** · 01-04-2018, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by sunnysideup

But this is all just a smokescreen to disguise a nervousness about analysing a few fragments from "4 on 6" (Wes).

What on earth are you on about?

There’s no pleasing some people lol.

Ah well, as you were. No wonder so many people have left the forum. It’s a weird place.

I’m starting to think the best thing I could possibly do for my life is find a entertaining way of getting banned. Something a bit better than the usual hissy fit.

**christianm77** · 01-04-2018, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

It's good to know that even in the absence of Mike McKoy, I'll still have to Google put downs I read here.

Not snowed in here either, we're "colded" in (broke 10 degrees F today for a few hours, woo-hoo!) In between making lego fortresses and breaking up the occasional "we've been off school almost two weeks and I'm fucking sick of you" skirmishes between my littles, this is certainly a nice distraction.

And then you go online to experience the same thing between grown men haha.

**grahambop** · 01-04-2018, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by sunnysideup

I wonder if some of the great players on this forum could add their view as to what’s happening around 42-45 seconds, not just what’s happening , but why it’s so great

Chris Whiteman
Grahambop
Jack Zucker
M-Ster
TruthHertz
Reg
Kris
Jens

Apologies to anyone I’ve left off…

sorry, a quick edit, and the Dutch Bopper of course!

Well at 42 seconds he’s playing an ascending Eb min9 11 arpeggio basically, which fits the chord change there (Eb min to Ab7 as I recall). Then the next bit is an ascending 3 note figure on the G min chord, consisting of Bb, D, Gb. So a kind of Gmin maj7 phrase. He then repeats it up 2 frets, then up 2 frets again. So turns it into a sort of ascending whole tone lick. Of course the 3rd repeat of the lick (D, Gb, Bb) is just an inversion of the first one.

Why this sounds great I’m not sure, just brilliant instinctive harmonic movements by Wes.

EDIT: I posted this before reading all the preceding comments, now I’ve read them I think everyone else was basically saying much the same thing as me.
Of course a good point by Christian and Jeff etc. that the rhythm is very cool, the 3 x repeating structure of 3 notes over the 4:4 beat is great.