The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 6 of 40 FirstFirst ... 4567816 ... LastLast
Posts 126 to 150 of 998
  1. #126

    User Info Menu

    TBH this is all words - the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

    If you want to check this yourself, can you spell out the changes clearly in time without a backing track in 1/2 notes, 1/4 notes, 1/8 notes, triplets?

    If you can, great, you can play changes, now move onto CST, US triads, bebop, whatever you want. If not, spend some more time with the basics.

    This as a baseline level of harmonic competence, and I still need to practice it on unfamiliar tunes.

    It's what my teachers expected of me. It's what I expect of myself. It's what I train my students to do.
    Last edited by christianm77; 11-08-2016 at 08:27 PM.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #127

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    It can, but it can also sound just plain wrong. I'm trying to think of an example but I can't at the moment. Probably chords in the same key in a logical progression work okay but severely anticipating a modulation doesn't. Well, not usually.
    You can totally anticipate a modulation by a beat.

    Oh, about chord function. I remember doing that Satin Doll thing upthread, I played a Cm over one of the G7's (at 3.06) without really thinking about it. Technically fine but out of function. It only just worked. I was lucky
    Doing something by mistake is not the same thing as doing something intentionally. Even if you play exactly the same notes one will sound strong, the other weak. You need to be able to hear it, whatever you do.

  4. #128

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    You can totally anticipate a modulation by a beat.
    Oh, one beat's okay.

  5. #129

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Oh, one beat's okay.
    Perhaps more

  6. #130

    User Info Menu

    An hour ago I played note Ab over Cm7 I will play tonite.

  7. #131

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    An hour ago I played note Ab over Cm7 I will play tonite.
    Ab is the b9 of G7, which goes with C-, so this is no surprise. Though it is a nice sound.

  8. #132

    User Info Menu

    I like the idea that vladan just left that note unresolved for an hour just to be a troll

  9. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I like the idea that vladan just left that note unresolved for an hour just to be a troll
    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    An hour ago I played note Ab over Cm7 I will play tonite.
    Ha. This made me laugh. Getting into real music nerd territory here, but this makes me think of when I first learned about such things as cadences half cadences etc. in school. The professor would play the first part of the shave and haircut thing and leave off the "two bits" resolution.

    Once you hear that, you're never satisfied with things like that not being resolved somewhat. So, then as a music major waiting tables at a Mexican restaurant, I was continually tortured by the happy birthday-type song which was sung countless times a day for guests. It was to the tune of la Cucaracha, and my untrained coworkers sang the half cadence of the first phrase the same way at the ending as well, never resolving. Tried to teach them to end on "Do", but it was a fool's errand.

    They had absolutely no clue what my beef was.

  10. #134

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

    They had absolutely no clue what my beef was.
    Oh, was it that kind of a restaurant?

  11. #135

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Once you hear that, you're never satisfied with things like that not being resolved somewhat. So, then as a music major waiting tables at a Mexican restaurant, I was continually tortured by the happy birthday-type song which was sung countless times a day for guests. It was to the tune of la Cucaracha, and my untrained coworkers sang the half cadence of the first phrase the same way at the ending as well, never resolving. Tried to teach them to end on "Do", but it was a fool's errand.

    They had absolutely no clue what my beef was.
    Irving Berlin's first job was as a singing waiter. He thought life couldn't get any better.

  12. #136

    User Info Menu



    I think it's at the end he says why.

    Obviously...resolving on cool Chord Tones and Extensions.

    Not playing the Scale in Alphabetical Order.
    Widening the Intervals in the Scale
    Interpolating other stuff in the middle of the scale to break it up.

    Going from Extension to scale to another extension or Chord Tone etc.

    Stacking the scale into wider intervals.

    Using Enharmonic Pentatonic Scales as a substitute for a 7 Note Scale - a Pentatonic Scale seems more permissible to quote verbatim but like all improv. - the Melodic Cadences ...the longer and or main expressive notes in your Solo are ALWAYS chord tones and extensions regardless of WHAT scale and often even what Key you are in.

    Chord Tones and Extensions are the structure....scales are ornamentation and should be used carefully or disguised or a really hot looking Woman should come out and dance as misdirection to the Audience ( like Magicians use) to distract them from your 2 Octave scale.

    *This is Scientific Fact......


    *OK maybe not- but don't you like the Dancing Girl Part ?

  13. #137

    User Info Menu

    I've got quite into playing random notes on difficult changes after I run out of things that fit the changes. Or even on normal changes.

    I think I hear Julian Lage doing this from time to time.

    I hope that one day someone may try and transcribe my lines puzzling out their harmonic significance unaware of their cheerfully chaotic nature.

    Anyway as they say - 'practice like a scientist, play like a drunk.'

  14. #138

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    Anyway as they say - 'practice like a scientist, play like a drunk.'
    You gotta sound like a drunk scientist, that's where it's at.

  15. #139

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa


    I think it's at the end he says why.

    Obviously...resolving on cool Chord Tones and Extensions.

    Not playing the Scale in Alphabetical Order.
    Widening the Intervals in the Scale
    Interpolating other stuff in the middle of the scale to break it up.

    Going from Extension to scale to another extension or Chord Tone etc.

    Stacking the scale into wider intervals.

    Using Enharmonic Pentatonic Scales as a substitute for a 7 Note Scale - a Pentatonic Scale seems more permissible to quote verbatim but like all improv. - the Melodic Cadences ...the longer and or main expressive notes in your Solo are ALWAYS chord tones and extensions regardless of WHAT scale and often even what Key you are in.

    Chord Tones and Extensions are the structure....scales are ornamentation and should be used carefully or disguised or a really hot looking Woman should come out and dance as misdirection to the Audience ( like Magicians use) to distract them from your 2 Octave scale.

    *This is Scientific Fact......


    *OK maybe not- but don't you like the Dancing Girl Part ?

    Enharmonic Pentatonic Scales? Isn't that just calling the same notes by their other names?




  16. #140

    User Info Menu

    Is this discussion about a certain style/period of jazz? The approaches being discussed weigh differently if you're talking about bebop, hard bop, post bop. bop bop bop. 40's swing. "Free" playing, blues? How can any conclusion be arrived at without knowing where the theory will be applied, how appropriate is it? I learned to play on the stand, learning from other musicians, taking criticism and hard knocks, and suggestions not based on what theory I was following but how it sounded to them and myself, and whether I came across emotionally and was being real. And certainly I also studied music theory at the library and sometimes experimented with stuff on the gig. Sometimes it worked and often it didn't, and that's how I learned and continue to learn. I happen to personally find the study of chords and intervals, and chord/key center substitutions more valuable to deriving an interpretation of my own on a standard, and more relevant to guitar students I have. But it's all good if you can get it to work for YOU. If a student just wants to play "jazz guitar", but has no real love for listening and a desire to understand the aesthetics and musicality of the jazz culture (as much as it may remain), it doesn't matter what theory you show them, they have to develop a listening ear first. (and for other instruments too) Theory is after the fact, it can occasionally lead you to a new area you would not have maybe got to right away. But there's a zillion theories, and then there's the actual music. They exist in parallel, like criticism, but are not the same thing as the music. I'm just a newbie to the forum so that's just my $.02.

    to OP... my suggestion is to take part of your practice time (not all) and just work on melodic and intervalic motifs and structures, transpose them by certain intervals, for instance a tritone. Practice making up melodic lines that are not derived consciously from a key, or scale, limit yourself at times to 1 to 3 intervals. Sing the line you made up, to yourself, and with the guitar, whistle or hum it. Have fun. See what crazy shit you can come up with. Try and develop a vocabulary unattached to these theories (hard to do but..) Then take those shapes you've created and then analyze them against certain chords or tonal centers. The singing will inform your ear and heart. You have to feel this stuff, internalize, don't externalize. "the line is in your body" , so said Lee Konitz.

  17. #141

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by tomems
    Enharmonic Pentatonic Scales? Isn't that just calling the same notes by their other names?



    Yes. But it also enables multiple uses for
    one Pentatonic scale ,so A minor Penta = C major Penta

    C major = the I , IV and V major Pentatonics and their Relative Minor Pentatonics ii iii, and vi Minor Pentatonics or more precisely the whole group of Pentatonics above are Subsets of the C Major Scale( or Key ) with each Major and it's Relative Minor being enharmonic.

    Pentatonic Scales are Real - lol
    Because One Major Scale ( or Key ) and one Pentatonic Scale can equal the whole Chromatic Scale and other Relationships.

    So Combined with Parent Keys and the above you can go Inside to Outside really quickly with Transposed Pentatonics or use the Subset Pentatonics to spread out intervals in the Modes....

    They can zero in on Chord Tones more accurately than a 7 note scale...I think I might start a Pentatonic Thread on here so the real Theory Heavyweights and Jazz Pros ( which I'm not either one- ) can weigh in and add to it into Transposed Pentatonics etc.

    I do a lot of shapes and wider interval stuff but use Pentatonics and Chromaticized Pentatonics with shapes and triads in the middle or end and two of my favorite Jazzers ...Benson and Brecker use(d) a surprising amount of Pentatonics .

    The Basic Parts of CST are cool for me - but I am not too interested in the ' Paint by Numbers ' aspects nor do I think there are deep Musical Secrets in CST which will enable someone to become the High Priest of Jazz ..lol.

    However- I do think Music School Grads ( which I am not ) are far better equipped to handle a Variety of musical environments professionally.

    The parts of Theory I am learning re- learning SIMPLIFY the fingefboard by giving multiple uses for the same fingerings etc.

    Absolutely not an intellectual pursuit on my part -

    CST will give a Player more options but will NOT directly improve your chops or your sense of time or ability to play what you 'hear ' in your mind.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 02-05-2018 at 10:54 AM.

  18. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa
    Yes. But it also enables multiple uses for
    one Pentatonic scale ,so A minor Penta = C major Penta

    C major = the I , IV and V major Pentatonics and their Relative Minor Pentatonics ii iii, and vi Minor Pentatonics or more precisely the whole group of Pentatonics above are Subsets of the C Major Scale with each Major and it's Relative Minor being enharmonic.
    I wondered if this was what you were talking about. Pentatonic scale of the "chord of the moment" (C.O.M.) I guess. Great way really to do chord tone soloing outside of jazz as well.

    I'm not really a serious bluegrass player, but I have occasion to play some every once in a while. The real bluegrass guys have this way of playing straight diatonic 7-note scales, but targeting chord of the moment really well in that context. Harder for me to do without skipping any notes in that fashion. Anyway, I find that working for a couple of minutes on pentatonics for C.O.M. helps tune my ears up to being able to do this better with 7-note scales.

    Jazz applications for pentatonic's can be much more complex of course, but there's much to be done in all styles besides simply playing a single pentatonic over an entire key center.

  19. #143

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    I wondered if this was what you were talking about. Pentatonic scale of the "chord of the moment" (C.O.M.) I guess. Great way really to do chord tone soloing outside of jazz as well.

    I'm not really a serious bluegrass player, but I have occasion to play some every once in a while. The real bluegrass guys have this way of playing straight diatonic 7-note scales, but targeting chord of the moment really well in that context. Harder for me to do without skipping any notes in that fashion. Anyway, I find that working for a couple of minutes on pentatonics for C.O.M. helps tune my ears up to being able to do this better with 7-note scales.

    Jazz applications for pentatonic's can be much more complex of course, but there's much to be done in all styles besides simply playing a single pentatonic over an entire key center.
    Yes .Of course but in the example above I gave the I IV and V Pentatonics as Subsets of their Parent Major Scale which is 7 Notes then when you add in the # IV Pentatonic - you have all 12 Tones.

    So you have spread out the Major Scale or any Mode by using it's subset Pentatonics ...then you have your Transposed Pentatonics and their Relative Minor Pentatonics for your Altered Chords which ARE only 5 notes and more concise than a 7 Note Scale.

    I used to do a trick with novice players which was have them play happy Major Pentatonic Country licks in C ( C Maj Penta F major Penta Gmajor Penta contain all 7 notes from Cmajor Scale) and I 'd play stuff like Dminor/ Aminor 11 /Bb Major 9 #11 under it and they would sound like Steely Dan...lol.

    So the quickest way for many Guitarists to find all the outside tones in C major is...#IV Major Pentatonic.

    But no I wasn't suggesting you would play a whole tune using a single 5 Note scale...even the Stones didn't do that in 1966.

    Pentatonics are the most INSIDE SCALE you can use over ANY CHORD and the most OUTSIDE SCALE you can use over any chord -
    NOT the Lydian Mode as George Russell proposed.

    I never said only one Pentatonic but I explained my Theory of Pentatonics and 7 Note Scales - no one actually taught me that...

    THAT part of Theory is Actual Music Theory - locking into Key Signatures etc.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 02-05-2018 at 10:59 AM.

  20. #144

    User Info Menu

    just a reader here, what is CST ?

  21. #145

    User Info Menu

    Chord Scale Theory

  22. #146

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by gabr1el
    just a reader here, what is CST ?
    Complicated, Silly.... Tantalising....

    Crap, Stupid, Tough.

    Crazy, Sophisticated, Treacherous...

  23. #147

    User Info Menu

    Chord Scale Theory is the opposite of playing
    Arpeggios/related arpeggios over the Chords - but not exactly/ not really.

    Chord Scale Theory is the Opposite of 'Playing what you hear/imagine over the Chords'- but not exactly, not really because someone who is trained that way might start 'hearing' that way and combined with 'other' ways of improv. including Arps/ Sequences/ Motifs/ Rhythmic Sequences etc etc..might incorporate everything ....and 'hear' it or He might just use CST when he does not ' hear' what to Play.

    So maybe it's not the Opposite of Anything...
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 10-04-2017 at 11:41 AM.

  24. #148

    User Info Menu

    Chord Scales are just 13th chord arpeggios.

  25. #149

    User Info Menu

    True. CST is extended arepggio playing. Except you condense it down into one octave and you can use those notes in any order/permutation.

    That BTW is the difference between CST and scale use circa 1940-50s... Not all notes in the commonly used diatonic scales could be used in this way....

    You can do similar stuff with pentatonics of course... So..

    3 notes - triads
    4 notes - 7th chords/6th chords
    5 notes - pentatonics
    6 notes - ?
    7 notes - CST (no avoid notes)

    But why stop there?... How about an 8 note CST scale that combines melodic minor and ionian modes:

    I.e. 8 note C dominant scale

    C D E F F# G A Bb

    TBH - that's what I hear more in actual jazz lines.

    Anyhoo. The next boring video no-one in their right mind would want to watch will address the difference between a 2 and a 9, 4 and 11 and so on... CST doesn't distinguish between them, but there is a very real difference.
    Last edited by christianm77; 10-04-2017 at 03:02 PM.

  26. #150

    User Info Menu

    I love hey recent article by Ethan Iverson where he rails on, among other things, chord scale theory .

    He makes sure however to give Barry Harris is an absolute pass and absolves him completely.