The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 40 of 40 FirstFirst ... 30383940
Posts 976 to 998 of 998
  1. #976

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by sunnysideup
    Hi RP, great analysis, mine is a bit different, can you play it at that speed? If so (or not so) would you like to post a clip?
    the part I have played at speed is where the melody starts at D on the G string, first finger.

    then, using the second finger for the rest, hit the Bb (D string) and F (A string). Then, slide down to Eb.

    I don't know for certain that's how Wes played, but it seems to nail the sound.

    As far as the rest, I'd have to transcribe it then figure out fingerings, then try to get them up to speed. I don't know if I could or not. I am not a particularly fast player.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #977

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Well at 42 seconds he’s playing an ascending Eb min9 11 arpeggio basically, which fits the chord change there (Eb min to Ab7 as I recall). Then the next bit is an ascending 3 note figure on the G min chord, consisting of Bb, D, Gb. So a kind of Gmin maj7 phrase. He then repeats it up 2 frets, then up 2 frets again. So turns it into a sort of ascending whole tone lick. Of course the 3rd repeat of the lick (D, Gb, Bb) is just an inversion of the first one.

    Why this sounds great I’m not sure, just brilliant instinctive harmonic movements by Wes.
    Thanks Mr Grahambop, your lines really have given me lot of pleasure.

    Yes it's that ascending lick over whole tones that that blows my brain. It's not an uncommon figure of course, but for some reason this version if it makes me a bit crazy.

  4. #978

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    the part I have played at speed is where the melody starts at D on the G string, first finger.

    then, using the second finger for the rest, hit the Bb (D string) and F (A string). Then, slide down to Eb.

    I don't know for certain that's how Wes played, but it seems to nail the sound.

    As far as the rest, I'd have to transcribe it then figure out fingerings, then try to get them up to speed. I don't know if I could or not. I am not a particularly fast player.
    Just chop your pinky off, you'll be fine.

  5. #979

    User Info Menu

    I think it sucks and is a mistake... one time and gone. Dim and whole tone are usually played for effect... like comping with lots of 2nds.

    Personally they sound like mistakes... played because you can't find what your hearing....Sure when composing... the written tradition, They work... but with jazz... When I was a kid with tons of chops I would use symmetrical patterns for the wow effect... but they always seem souless. Attention getter etc...

    Ok I just listoned... it's not Whole tone etc... It's just Gmm.

    Skip what I said above with reference to the tune, ( still feel that way in general). That was Wes attempt at using MM as a diatonic modal approach. I've posted examples of using similar patterns from MM. Playing a lick and transposing it diatonically up in 3rds.

    G-maj7, Bbma7#5 etc....

  6. #980

    User Info Menu

    If you take basic functional approach... Diatonic functional... With Tonic... the same Tonic function can be implied from the III chord and the VI chord. Your using the Diatonic Sub approach.... Subbing other diatonic chords,(licks) with and existing chord or lick of similar function. with relation to a tonic.

    That's the basic reference. Using subs based on Diatonic functional principals. You can apply the same approach to different pitch collections which also have organized chords constructed on each scale degree.

    Of course you can just use arpeggio extensions etc... but when you want to expand the concept, it works better when you have more control and the organization will work with different pitch collections.

  7. #981

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Well at 42 seconds he’s playing an ascending Eb min9 11 arpeggio basically, which fits the chord change there (Eb min to Ab7 as I recall). ...

    EDIT: I posted this before reading all the preceding comments, now I’ve read them I think everyone else was basically saying much the same thing as me.
    Still, you are the only one who deserved a like from me, probably because you were the only one to note what actually happens at 0:42.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    I think it sucks and is a mistake... ... played because you can't find what your hearing....
    Exactly my first thoughts. Leaping around until you hit familiar ground. But, hey, it is Wes, he must have done it on purpose.

  8. #982

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I think of jazz very much as a music of layers. You think of rhythmic layers - 3 on 4, dotted quarter against 4/4 (like that Wes lick) etc etc - but it's also true of the tonality of jazz, tritone sub on V7, whole tone on minor, possibly dominant on minor (maybe) as we've seen in the Wes solo...

    The music of course is improvisation in a group, so it kind of has to be this way. The layers bear a relationship, obviously, but they are not totally unified either.

    Dave Liebman got a lot of mileage out this idea in his book
    A Chromatic Approach to Jazz Harmony and Melody: Book & CD (Advance Music): Amazon.co.uk: David Liebman: 9783892210306: Books

    Steve Coleman's term invisible paths covers both the use of superimposed chord progressions and rhythms is really nice. That's why I like to analyse lines independent of the context as free-standing structures and only then look at how they relate to the original progression. Usually the relationship is like different journeys to common landmarks.

    (There's a nice depiction of this in the Lydian Chromatic Concept. Lester as a Steamboat, Trane as a jet and Ornette as a rocket ship going to New Orleans IIRC...)
    When you analyze a Solo that is E Minor in nature -
    but it is superimposed over Cmajor7th even though most or all of the notes are the same...
    Do you feel that it brings out the darker side of Cmajor 7th when as a Soloist you play off and borrow from the Eminor triad within it rather than the Cmajor Triad ?

    Seems like a large difference to me ...and you mentioned Martino earlier - I think that's one of the reasons he sounds 'darker'..does this make sense to you ?

    I think this is what Reg talks about sometimes..you are playing the same notes but by accenting different
    parts of the COM ( more basic ) you get different flavors and then ( more advanced ) when you borrow enough from another Region the lines still resolve but there is a kind of 'Two Regions at once' going on..

    It's not bitonality exactly but you could call it that..
    Do you notice this ?

    It's more obvious when you comp from related Chord Families for example over Cmaj 7 the voicings are obviously heard in context of Cmajor 7th but depending upon how far you go but not even including any chromatic or Altered Tones- the comped chords retain some of their identity G sus 4 add 9 for example or G sus4 ..

    Then when you start -'targeting ' the comped chord
    it's another slant again ..and of course longer lines are created ...
    Reg appears to do this by grouping scales ...which is more advanced ( beyond my CPU lol ) but I can do it this way .....I have not seen this discussed too much ...although I have not looked at a Jazz Theory book in a long time..

    It's not really Bi Tonality ...more like Bi Regions within the Tonality occuring simultaneously.

    Jordan Klemons has mentioned it also..it ties into chord construction ...but also really ties into Improv and expanding resources..

    So Reg- I think I have a ' window' into (some of) your expansion ideas ...without needing the scale mastery thing .....I won't get it all ...but still what I am doing now goes very far ....

    Also a great way for writing Heads ..
    I just starting on 'and of 1' timing reference..

    Played a Gsus4 Arp ( typical Barre 6 note voicing )
    landing on the 3rd of Cmaj7 ( the COM )

    Then I heard the b7 and a little Blues Lick so the Cmaj7 had to go Minor 7th and to FMajor ...then back to Cmaj7...

    A nice little Melody for a smooth Jazz Tune..( which should be too R&B for smooth Jazz after I Rhythmatize it and program the Drums etc.)



    And of course the Bridge might go to Bflat or Eminor
    off that ii- V.


    Not sure if there is a name for Bi Regionality ( pompous term lol ) ..

    Also earlier in the Thread I used the Term ' secondary target ' for targeting a Chord in Improv. which is
    Not the COM..

    What is this called ?

    Or if no term ...what should we call it ?

    Again the stuff I am talking about ( and Playing) would be more 'Modern' I assume though mostly very inside..

    LCC:
    I think that the Major and Minor Penta over Major and Minor Chords respectively .. are more Consonant than Lydian ...and that those scales Russel quotes only work by 'Vertical Coincidence' - which is fine ..whatever works - but to make up a big' Theory 'about it ....that's the part I disagree with.
    Like 'Harmolodics' per Ornette Coleman and James Ulmer ...

    For me the Relationships of Keys and scales and the Chromatic Scale are much clearer looking at Modes and Pentatonics.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 01-05-2018 at 01:21 PM.

  9. #983

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    ... the chord solo over west coast blues also has it over the Bm7 E7 part at the 4:50 mark. a mistake, huh?
    For that one, my first thoughts would never be that it was a mistake. My first thought was that it sounded like chord grip moved over the neck in "parallel motion", regardless of key, in order to achieve effect of surprise and additional interest in listener, where particular musical meaning is pretty much irrelevant.

    Back to "4 on 6", in this solo, there are other details, like string buzzing (?) at exactly the moment, like the finger was meant to be on adjacent fret (I think I can even hear some quick motion btw two frets), but since it actually landed elsewhere " ... let's move ..." ...

    Also, I have a second thought about it ...
    Last edited by Vladan; 01-05-2018 at 11:45 AM.

  10. #984

    User Info Menu

    Yea... personally I hear it as G MM and moving up diatonically... the mistake is using the Ab, which could be from C whole tone. Try using C whole tone and making it work... Do you really hear the harmony changing to C WT.

    the lick is A Bb D F#...D E G# (Ab)...E F# Bb, I hear as mistake...

  11. #985

    User Info Menu

    I remember back in the 60's being told to think of the altered V7 chord as being Whole Tone stacked on a Dim. chord ... It worked sort mechanically.... but the thinking or theory behind, never made sense. Why am I mixing two symmetrical scales or chords to get a V7 chord...

    Then I bumped into MM and different approaches of Functional harmony... if WT works for anyone, go for it. more of a written tradition approach.

  12. #986

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Yea... personally I hear it as G MM and moving up diatonically... the mistake is using the Ab, which could be from C whole tone. Try using C whole tone and making it work... Do you really hear the harmony changing to C WT.

    the lick is A Bb D F#...D E G# (Ab)...E F# Bb, I hear as mistake...
    Good to know, bases of our "mistake" claims are different.

    VladanMovies BlogSpot

  13. #987

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    Still, you are the only one who deserved a like from me, probably because you were the only one to note what actually happens at 0:42.



    Exactly my first thoughts. Leaping around until you hit familiar ground. But, hey, it is Wes, he must have done it on purpose.
    So at :42, they're in middle of solo section, different changes. At bar 9 it's G-7. No Eb-7 to Ab7.

  14. #988

    User Info Menu

    So at :42, they're in middle of solo section, different changes. At bar 9 it's G-7. No Eb-7 to Ab7.
    The lick that was mentioned is a bit before 0:42 if I hear correctly there's Bb - Eb - D - Ab line in bass behind this lick

  15. #989

    User Info Menu

    Yea... personally I hear it as G MM and moving up diatonically... the mistake is using the Ab, which could be from C whole tone. Try using C whole tone and making it work... Do you really hear the harmony changing to C WT.

    the lick is A Bb D F#...D E G# (Ab)...E F# Bb, I hear as mistake...
    Sure the lick is a bit mechanical I agree... a pattern transposed... but a mistake? I think more or less correct judgement about it as a mistake can be made if lots of Wes solos analyzed and there is nothing like this any more...

    Another point... there are different players' mentalities... some players take chances much more than others... and get taken away in playing.. they could be deliverately going to teh point where they lose concious control just following that feel now..
    Not always succefully but is it a mistake?
    To me Wes is really often being carried away... and in my favourite solos there are always moents that feel like he just could not stop and ran too far into something that has no coninuation... and he makes kind of stop and switches to another idea

    But players of such a level have enough skills to cover mistakes and come out clean so it could be difficult to say if it was on purpose or not...

    And also I agree that to my ear all MM sound would sound better (C triad instead of C aug).. more tasty.. not only because of theoretic explanation... but just because to my ear it's more interesting idea musically.... more integral
    (TBH when I first heard the line I thought it was G not Ab there)
    Last edited by Jonah; 01-05-2018 at 03:46 PM.

  16. #990

    User Info Menu

    If you want to hear Wes really making a mistake, listen to this from 7:30 onwards. At least it proves he was human!


  17. #991

    User Info Menu

    Same lick, or not?






    VladanMovies BlogSpot

  18. #992

    User Info Menu

    Ok... I'll take your word for it...so same thing I still hear the the Ab or G# as mistake ... Or... he wanted to play constant structure augmented triads or WT cycle.... Why would one play something not close to almost all the organization of the tune and never develop the New relationship. MM has already been established, melody, changes, improve. The 1st and 3rd Aug. triads are already in Gmm.
    Bbmaj#5 and D7b13.

    I'm pretty simple granted, I don't look for magic. But I do see and hear harmony. One can call anything anything if it works for them... I tend to think and hear as a harmonic rhythmic section player. Later wes did spell Gmm to Csus C7 , at around 1:15, but 99% of the playing is very basic... just great music.

    Yea I've never though of Wes at a technical player, not tons of chops, pretty much played straight down the middle, simple etc... but he did it well.

    How did this thread get into melodic lick organization. CST is a harmonic analysis concept. Is it Wes's use of MM for II Vs... he also use altered II V in Maj. contexts a lot... which could be a CST thing, but seems more like just relative and parallel applications. Cole Porter school.

    Maybe we could make the thread more useful... post examples of different approaches playing 4 on 6. I still love the tune. The Talking about it seems to get messy.

  19. #993

    User Info Menu

    Same lick, or not?
    Yes (I could not hear it the second video - I missed it?).
    It tells that he used it conciously. So strictly speaking it's not a mistake (if we call 'mistake' a failed attempt of a player to take chances rith there). It was his choice obviously.
    Probably there was something Wes liked about that sound.

    But I should say again I undestand what Reg means... to my ear natural G in that lick would sound better.
    And also I agree the explanation GMM over tonic G minor chord... because I can hear that harmonic sound (minor with nat6 and maj7) and I like it and Ab falls out of it... actually it's exactly what I tried to talk about some posts before - scale harmonic sound.. if you hear it you use as a harmonic idea and develope it.. if not you do something different.
    Probably Wes did not... it does not make it worse, just very different.

  20. #994

    User Info Menu

    regarding the lick, it's just a whole-tone idea over a minor chord that stems from the swing era. C whole tone over Gm. wes may have learned it from a charlie christian stardust solo. i'm sure you'll also find examples by tatum or byas. early 40s monk anyone?
    You mean at 2:40? If yes, I would not call a whole - tone idea..

  21. #995

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Yes (I could not hear it the second video - I missed it?).
    ...

    And also I agree the explanation GMM over tonic G minor chord... because I can hear that harmonic sound (minor with nat6 and maj7) and I like it ....

    Probably Wes did not... it does not make it worse, just very different.
    Cool, just checking if we talk about same thing, bar 9 of the form and it's surrounding.


    GMM over G tonic minor I hear as something I do not like. I like E, but I do not like F#, except as passing note.
    In both recordings of the lick when he goes from F# to C, I hear something muffled that could be aborted slide to F, but more likely is just a byproduct of movable shape, which would be slide to G. Possibly he was aware of the effect it could make on people like my self.
    Also, seen as continuation of previous bars , like "out" version of previous lick, it starts with hi G, before it goes to BbDF# moving shape.

    That said, what he does, I think, he treats the harmony of the moment as if it was not Gm7, but rather Gm7 to C7 alternating vamp, consistent to harmony of the head, simplified to C7(alt?). Kind of MM step below V, but he decided it was easier to use shape in parallel motion "jazz hack tool", where one note is off ( F#), but in overall ambiguity does not mean much, even adds interest.

    100% repetition of the lick in context suggest it was not improvised on the spot.

    VladanMovies BlogSpot
    Last edited by Vladan; 01-06-2018 at 11:01 AM.

  22. #996

    User Info Menu

    Cool, just checking if we talk about same thing, bar 9 of the form and it's surrounding.
    yes. In the 1st video you posted it's 0:47. And in the 2nd long video I could not hear that lick (by the way that record is half step higher)


    Also, seen as continuation of previous bars , like "out" version of previous lick, it starts with hi G, before it goes to BDF# moving shape.
    Yes, I agree.. in that record


    But in this the lick is not prepared by previous phrase

    Wes Montgomery-Four On Six (1965)-Guitarra de Jazz. - YouTube

    That said, what he does, I think, he treats the harmony of the moment as if it was not Gm7, but rather Gm7 to C7 alternating vamp, consistent to harmony of the head, simplified to C7(alt?). Kind of MM step below V, but he decided it was easier to use shape in parallel motion "jazz hack tool", where one note is off ( F#), but in overall ambiguity does not mean much, even adds interest.
    Could be... consindering original changes Gm to C... why not...
    so he treats that Ab as sort of b13 in C?

    As for F#... I don't know... anything could be... If he played next C-E-G that F# would be resolved.. and nex D-F# - Bb would sound like V (D major) with aug 5th as anticipation of Gminor.

    I am not sure if would actually really explain it except that je liked it and it was moveable shape...

    Everything is possible... I don't know how he came up with it. Maybe occasionally and he liked the outside sound of the whole lick and had fun with without thinkong a lot of it.

    but if I have to analyze it (as myself) then it's not the lick that I really find very interesting.

  23. #997

    User Info Menu

    Yea Anything can work, and yes doesn't sound improvised.

    It's just a personal thing form years ago.

    When I see and hear a tune that used MM as 50% of the head and in that part of the solo section... it would be natural to use C7#11, D7b13, E-7b5, F#-7b5(F#7altered) to get to C-7 F7 / Bbmaj7 etc... Which is close to using whole tone, but personally feels like better relationship to start developing. It would nave been cool to hear Wes develop the partial Whole tone lick...

    There is usually a difference between using a 7th chord as a Dominant and embellishing as compared to when a 7th chord is part of a chord Pattern, like the II V. In chord patterns, they are usually subdominant or tonic.

    I bet someone told Wes... hey her is a cool idea for intro lick for soloing or something like that.

    Hell maybe he played 7th#11 chords up in whole tone pattern to get to the C-7, but instead played C7#11
    C7#11, D7#11, E7#11, F#7#11, G#7#11, Bb7#11...C7#11, Bbma7, A-7 D7 G-7...at least there would be a connection to tune.

  24. #998

    User Info Menu

    Nice topic saving to read better latter.