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  1. #951

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    I wonder if some of the great players on this forum could add their view as to what’s happening around 42-45 seconds, not just what’s happening , but why it’s so great

    Chris Whiteman
    Grahambop
    Jack Zucker
    M-Ster
    TruthHertz
    Reg
    Kris
    Jens

    Apologies to anyone I’ve left off…



    sorry, a quick edit, and the Dutch Bopper of course!
    Last edited by sunnysideup; 01-04-2018 at 03:12 PM.
    "Really welding was my talent, I think, but I sort of swished it aside." Wes

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  3. #952

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    Not a great player, but yeah, there's the augmented triad on the minor chord...so why does it sound great?

    Well, in my opinion it's great on several levels...

    First, to my ears its an inside-outside-in lick. So the first augmented triad suggests Gm/maj7, and the lick ends firmly on a G, getting us back in.

    The middle sounds great because it's unexpected, yet easy to latch on to due to the symmetrical movement of what introduced it.

    And it's played by Wes, so it swing, deep in the groove. You can play that lick square and out of pocket and won't sound nearly as good.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  4. #953

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    Sunny - the line at 0:42 is what I'm talking about re: the whole tone thing, if you haven't twigged.

  5. #954

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    If you'll forgive the re-post, I attach a couple of relevant link:

    From bar 9 of his solo or so, I hear a series of ascending aug triads each one a tone higher than the last (which makes F# whole tone played in ascending triads) - right The phrase starts with a lower neighbour chromatic tone... (Time stamp later....)

    Here's a link/analysis
    Symmetric Solutions: The Whole Tone Workbook Book/CD Set - BRUCE SAUNDERS - Google Books

    This all happens on the G Minor 7 chord and the phrase resolves into the Cm7 F7....

    The rhythm is nice - in 8ths - 3 - 3 - 3 - 3 - 3 against the beat, classic stuff...

    This is where I heard of it first. I remember thinking, that sounds like some theory bullshit, then I heard Wes do it :-)


  6. #955

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Sunny - the line at 0:42 is what I'm talking about re: the whole tone thing, if you haven't twigged.
    I twigged don't worry, and I really appreciate your jumping in feet first.

    But let's give some space to the other guys.
    "Really welding was my talent, I think, but I sort of swished it aside." Wes

  7. #956

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    great players

    but why it’s so great
    only greats of teh greats invited to say why the great of the great Wes is so great?

    Seriously.. what's youtr idea about it?
    I am probaby the opposite side of the great (wall)...
    since it's free forum I will aloow myself to make a comment too.

    I think the effect comes from a few apects combined

    1) melodic structure of ascending agmented triads... this often brings in that outside-ish effect epecial in whole tone movement.. a bit surrealistic thing - like some stable well-understood things suddenly become unreal
    2) maj7 over G minor and nat E (G dorian) - together it makes kind of melodic minor with Phrygianb2... or whole-tone scale half step above the root
    4) rythmic phrasing and resolution at the end to straight Gm

  8. #957

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Not a great player, but yeah, there's the augmented triad on the minor chord...so why does it sound great?

    Well, in my opinion it's great on several levels...

    First, to my ears its an inside-outside-in lick. So the first augmented triad suggests Gm/maj7, and the lick ends firmly on a G, getting us back in.

    The middle sounds great because it's unexpected, yet easy to latch on to due to the symmetrical movement of what introduced it.

    And it's played by Wes, so it swing, deep in the groove. You can play that lick square and out of pocket and won't sound nearly as good.
    Monsieur Beaumont, I want to apologise for something I said to you a couple of years ago, in many ways you are the epitome of the jazz spirit, and I am sorry if I said anything that might have inhibited you. I still don't understand how you get such great video and sound off a phone. But that's a different thread.

    "But" your views and Christian's are well known. I'd really like to hear from some of the other guys, and I think you would agree they are all great players.
    "Really welding was my talent, I think, but I sort of swished it aside." Wes

  9. #958

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    only greats of teh greats invited to say why the great of the great Wes is so great?

    Seriously.. what's youtr idea about it?
    +1

  10. #959

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    Quote Originally Posted by sunnysideup View Post
    Monsieur Beaumont, I want to apologise for something I said to you a couple of years ago, in many ways you are the epitome of the jazz spirit, and I am sorry if I said anything that might have inhibited you.
    No worries, whatever it was I don't remember it...and my inhibitions are few. Fewer in a few hours, too, as I have a bottle of Laphrohaig I'll be opening tonight.

    But I will let the others che in, but only afterm one more quick observation...

    That first shape is just D augmented, too...so it's just V on i...sets up the whole tone idea, moves it up symmetrically, resolves...

    Ok, enough, I'll sit back a bit...
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  11. #960

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    Quote Originally Posted by sunnysideup View Post
    I twigged don't worry, and I really appreciate your jumping in feet first.

    But let's give some space to the other guys.
    The implication that, for example, Zucker would need to be given space to say his piece about anything is amusing to me.

    The forum is always a product of whoever is hanging around, and today it happens to be me, you, Jonah and Jeff wasting each other's time.

    Jumping in feet first is what I do, and I'm old enough and ugly enough to 1) see how it might annoy some people and 2) that I am really not going to change.

    Deal with it, princess xx

  12. #961

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    I'm kind of surprised the traffic isn't heavier considering that the entire east coast of the US is presently being buried under mountains of white, fluffy annoyance. I've been working at home all day, but most of my co workers took the day off, so not much to do but read the forum and practice.
    "I'm opposed to picketing, but I don't know to show it." --Mitch Hedberg

  13. #962

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    Deal with it, princess xx[/QUOTE]

    Is the "princess" supposed to be some kind of put down? Would you like to add sexist grossness to the list of your attributes?

    I have a lot of respect for Jack and I am genuinely interested in his analysis. This doesn't mean I agree with Jack on all things.

    I'm not sure that he (and some of the others I've mentioned) would be willing to do it for free anyway. We'll see.

    And of course this comes back down to how does a "professional" jazz musician earn a living these days.

    Everything you've said so far about the Wes performance I've posted could just be a copy and paste job.
    "Really welding was my talent, I think, but I sort of swished it aside." Wes

  14. #963

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    Quote Originally Posted by sunnysideup View Post

    Is the "princess" supposed to be some kind of put down? Would you like to add sexist grossness to the list of your attributes?
    I really have no compelling reason to care about your opinion of me.

    I have a lot of respect for Jack and I am genuinely interested in his analysis. This doesn't mean I agree with Jack on all things.
    I have a lot of respect for Jack too. Backwards in coming forwards, however, I think we can agree, he is not.

    We've had our clashes, which I have found quite fun.

    I'm not sure that he (and some of the others I've mentioned) would be willing to do it for free anyway. We'll see.

    And of course this comes back down to how does a "professional" jazz musician earn a living these days.

    Everything you've said so far about the Wes performance I've posted could just be a copy and paste job.
    *Shrug*

    I await your analysis.

  15. #964

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Joe View Post
    I'm kind of surprised the traffic isn't heavier considering that the entire east coast of the US is presently being buried under mountains of white, fluffy annoyance. I've been working at home all day, but most of my co workers took the day off, so not much to do but read the forum and practice.
    Yeah, I'm not being snowed in and I'm pretty bereft of better things to do but trade laboured banter with some superannuated misanthrope.

    The sad thing is, that's actually the case.

    Practice is tricky at the moment due to little one. But when it comes to music, she only smiles for Wes.

  16. #965

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Yeah, I'm not being snowed in and I'm pretty bereft of better things to do but trade laboured banter with some superannuated misanthrope.
    Are you referring to me? I mean "misanthrope" is fine, but "superannuated?" I'm only 51!

    Princess.
    "I'm opposed to picketing, but I don't know to show it." --Mitch Hedberg

  17. #966

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    Quote Originally Posted by sunnysideup View Post
    I wonder if some of the great players on this forum could add their view as to what’



    sorry, a quick edit, and the Dutch Bopper of course!
    My view is that it works for the following reasons:

    It is preceded by an inside sound and followed by an inside sound.

    It is quick.

    It is structured. A triad and then the same thing a step up.

    What I'm thinking about it whether the fact that it was an augmented triad mattered all that much.

    I suspect that he could have played a lot of different triads or short melodic cells right there -- and they'd all have sounded fine if well structured. The structure makes it ear catching enough to create bitonality.

    As to why he played it, my guess is that it looks a little bit like the descending lick that preceded it. It's a two finger lick with a slide (is my belief from playing this line) and that puts those two fingers in a position which fits an augmented triad. That, and because he was a genius.

  18. #967

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    *cough* rhythm *cough*?

  19. #968

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    Hey, no I'm the "superannuated misanthrope", but a couple of messages before that I was the "princess".

    Nice jazz forum eh:-)

    But this is all just a smokescreen to disguise a nervousness about analysing a few fragments from "4 on 6" (Wes).
    "Really welding was my talent, I think, but I sort of swished it aside." Wes

  20. #969

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    Quote Originally Posted by sunnysideup View Post
    Hey, no I'm the "superannuated misanthrope", but a couple of messages before that I was the "princess".

    Nice jazz forum eh:-)

    But this is all just a smokescreen to disguise a nervousness about analysing a few fragments from "4 on 6" (Wes).
    You can't have a good forum without a little badinage. It's part of the fun.
    "I'm opposed to picketing, but I don't know to show it." --Mitch Hedberg

  21. #970

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    It's good to know that even in the absence of Mike McKoy, I'll still have to Google put downs I read here.

    Not snowed in here either, we're "colded" in (broke 10 degrees F today for a few hours, woo-hoo!) In between making lego fortresses and breaking up the occasional "we've been off school almost two weeks and I'm fucking sick of you" skirmishes between my littles, this is certainly a nice distraction.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  22. #971

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    It's good to know that even in the absence of Mike McKoy, I'll still have to Google put downs I read here.

    Not snowed in here either, we're "colded" in (broke 10 degrees F today for a few hours, woo-hoo!) In between making lego fortresses and breaking up the occasional "we've been off school almost two weeks and I'm fucking sick of you" skirmishes between my littles, this is certainly a nice distraction.
    That's pretty standard for Chicago, isn't it?

    And yeah, I didn't think the "bombogenisis" had gone that far inland.
    "I'm opposed to picketing, but I don't know to show it." --Mitch Hedberg

  23. #972

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    My view is that it works for the following reasons:

    It is preceded by an inside sound and followed by an inside sound.

    It is quick.

    It is structured. A triad and then the same thing a step up.

    What I'm thinking about it whether the fact that it was an augmented triad mattered all that much.

    I suspect that he could have played a lot of different triads or short melodic cells right there -- and they'd all have sounded fine if well structured. The structure makes it ear catching enough to create bitonality.

    As to why he played it, my guess is that it looks a little bit like the descending lick that preceded it. It's a two finger lick with a slide (is my belief from playing this line) and that puts those two fingers in a position which fits an augmented triad. That, and because he was a genius.
    Hi RP, great analysis, mine is a bit different, can you play it at that speed? If so (or not so) would you like to post a clip?
    "Really welding was my talent, I think, but I sort of swished it aside." Wes

  24. #973

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    Quote Originally Posted by sunnysideup View Post
    But this is all just a smokescreen to disguise a nervousness about analysing a few fragments from "4 on 6" (Wes).
    What on earth are you on about?

    There’s no pleasing some people lol.

    Ah well, as you were. No wonder so many people have left the forum. It’s a weird place.

    I’m starting to think the best thing I could possibly do for my life is find a entertaining way of getting banned. Something a bit better than the usual hissy fit.

  25. #974

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    It's good to know that even in the absence of Mike McKoy, I'll still have to Google put downs I read here.

    Not snowed in here either, we're "colded" in (broke 10 degrees F today for a few hours, woo-hoo!) In between making lego fortresses and breaking up the occasional "we've been off school almost two weeks and I'm fucking sick of you" skirmishes between my littles, this is certainly a nice distraction.
    And then you go online to experience the same thing between grown men haha.

  26. #975

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    Quote Originally Posted by sunnysideup View Post
    I wonder if some of the great players on this forum could add their view as to what’s happening around 42-45 seconds, not just what’s happening , but why it’s so great

    Chris Whiteman
    Grahambop
    Jack Zucker
    M-Ster
    TruthHertz
    Reg
    Kris
    Jens

    Apologies to anyone I’ve left off…



    sorry, a quick edit, and the Dutch Bopper of course!
    Well at 42 seconds he’s playing an ascending Eb min9 11 arpeggio basically, which fits the chord change there (Eb min to Ab7 as I recall). Then the next bit is an ascending 3 note figure on the G min chord, consisting of Bb, D, Gb. So a kind of Gmin maj7 phrase. He then repeats it up 2 frets, then up 2 frets again. So turns it into a sort of ascending whole tone lick. Of course the 3rd repeat of the lick (D, Gb, Bb) is just an inversion of the first one.

    Why this sounds great I’m not sure, just brilliant instinctive harmonic movements by Wes.

    EDIT: I posted this before reading all the preceding comments, now I’ve read them I think everyone else was basically saying much the same thing as me.
    Of course a good point by Christian and Jeff etc. that the rhythm is very cool, the 3 x repeating structure of 3 notes over the 4:4 beat is great.

  27. #976

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    Quote Originally Posted by sunnysideup View Post
    Hi RP, great analysis, mine is a bit different, can you play it at that speed? If so (or not so) would you like to post a clip?
    the part I have played at speed is where the melody starts at D on the G string, first finger.

    then, using the second finger for the rest, hit the Bb (D string) and F (A string). Then, slide down to Eb.

    I don't know for certain that's how Wes played, but it seems to nail the sound.

    As far as the rest, I'd have to transcribe it then figure out fingerings, then try to get them up to speed. I don't know if I could or not. I am not a particularly fast player.

  28. #977

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Well at 42 seconds he’s playing an ascending Eb min9 11 arpeggio basically, which fits the chord change there (Eb min to Ab7 as I recall). Then the next bit is an ascending 3 note figure on the G min chord, consisting of Bb, D, Gb. So a kind of Gmin maj7 phrase. He then repeats it up 2 frets, then up 2 frets again. So turns it into a sort of ascending whole tone lick. Of course the 3rd repeat of the lick (D, Gb, Bb) is just an inversion of the first one.

    Why this sounds great I’m not sure, just brilliant instinctive harmonic movements by Wes.
    Thanks Mr Grahambop, your lines really have given me lot of pleasure.

    Yes it's that ascending lick over whole tones that that blows my brain. It's not an uncommon figure of course, but for some reason this version if it makes me a bit crazy.
    "Really welding was my talent, I think, but I sort of swished it aside." Wes

  29. #978

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    the part I have played at speed is where the melody starts at D on the G string, first finger.

    then, using the second finger for the rest, hit the Bb (D string) and F (A string). Then, slide down to Eb.

    I don't know for certain that's how Wes played, but it seems to nail the sound.

    As far as the rest, I'd have to transcribe it then figure out fingerings, then try to get them up to speed. I don't know if I could or not. I am not a particularly fast player.
    Just chop your pinky off, you'll be fine.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  30. #979

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    I think it sucks and is a mistake... one time and gone. Dim and whole tone are usually played for effect... like comping with lots of 2nds.

    Personally they sound like mistakes... played because you can't find what your hearing....Sure when composing... the written tradition, They work... but with jazz... When I was a kid with tons of chops I would use symmetrical patterns for the wow effect... but they always seem souless. Attention getter etc...

    Ok I just listoned... it's not Whole tone etc... It's just Gmm.

    Skip what I said above with reference to the tune, ( still feel that way in general). That was Wes attempt at using MM as a diatonic modal approach. I've posted examples of using similar patterns from MM. Playing a lick and transposing it diatonically up in 3rds.

    G-maj7, Bbma7#5 etc....

  31. #980

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    If you take basic functional approach... Diatonic functional... With Tonic... the same Tonic function can be implied from the III chord and the VI chord. Your using the Diatonic Sub approach.... Subbing other diatonic chords,(licks) with and existing chord or lick of similar function. with relation to a tonic.

    That's the basic reference. Using subs based on Diatonic functional principals. You can apply the same approach to different pitch collections which also have organized chords constructed on each scale degree.

    Of course you can just use arpeggio extensions etc... but when you want to expand the concept, it works better when you have more control and the organization will work with different pitch collections.

  32. #981

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Well at 42 seconds he’s playing an ascending Eb min9 11 arpeggio basically, which fits the chord change there (Eb min to Ab7 as I recall). ...

    EDIT: I posted this before reading all the preceding comments, now I’ve read them I think everyone else was basically saying much the same thing as me.
    Still, you are the only one who deserved a like from me, probably because you were the only one to note what actually happens at 0:42.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    I think it sucks and is a mistake... ... played because you can't find what your hearing....
    Exactly my first thoughts. Leaping around until you hit familiar ground. But, hey, it is Wes, he must have done it on purpose.
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  33. #982

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I think of jazz very much as a music of layers. You think of rhythmic layers - 3 on 4, dotted quarter against 4/4 (like that Wes lick) etc etc - but it's also true of the tonality of jazz, tritone sub on V7, whole tone on minor, possibly dominant on minor (maybe) as we've seen in the Wes solo...

    The music of course is improvisation in a group, so it kind of has to be this way. The layers bear a relationship, obviously, but they are not totally unified either.

    Dave Liebman got a lot of mileage out this idea in his book
    A Chromatic Approach to Jazz Harmony and Melody: Book & CD (Advance Music): Amazon.co.uk: David Liebman: 9783892210306: Books

    Steve Coleman's term invisible paths covers both the use of superimposed chord progressions and rhythms is really nice. That's why I like to analyse lines independent of the context as free-standing structures and only then look at how they relate to the original progression. Usually the relationship is like different journeys to common landmarks.

    (There's a nice depiction of this in the Lydian Chromatic Concept. Lester as a Steamboat, Trane as a jet and Ornette as a rocket ship going to New Orleans IIRC...)
    When you analyze a Solo that is E Minor in nature -
    but it is superimposed over Cmajor7th even though most or all of the notes are the same...
    Do you feel that it brings out the darker side of Cmajor 7th when as a Soloist you play off and borrow from the Eminor triad within it rather than the Cmajor Triad ?

    Seems like a large difference to me ...and you mentioned Martino earlier - I think that's one of the reasons he sounds 'darker'..does this make sense to you ?

    I think this is what Reg talks about sometimes..you are playing the same notes but by accenting different
    parts of the COM ( more basic ) you get different flavors and then ( more advanced ) when you borrow enough from another Region the lines still resolve but there is a kind of 'Two Regions at once' going on..

    It's not bitonality exactly but you could call it that..
    Do you notice this ?

    It's more obvious when you comp from related Chord Families for example over Cmaj 7 the voicings are obviously heard in context of Cmajor 7th but depending upon how far you go but not even including any chromatic or Altered Tones- the comped chords retain some of their identity G sus 4 add 9 for example or G sus4 ..

    Then when you start -'targeting ' the comped chord
    it's another slant again ..and of course longer lines are created ...
    Reg appears to do this by grouping scales ...which is more advanced ( beyond my CPU lol ) but I can do it this way .....I have not seen this discussed too much ...although I have not looked at a Jazz Theory book in a long time..

    It's not really Bi Tonality ...more like Bi Regions within the Tonality occuring simultaneously.

    Jordan Klemons has mentioned it also..it ties into chord construction ...but also really ties into Improv and expanding resources..

    So Reg- I think I have a ' window' into (some of) your expansion ideas ...without needing the scale mastery thing .....I won't get it all ...but still what I am doing now goes very far ....

    Also a great way for writing Heads ..
    I just starting on 'and of 1' timing reference..

    Played a Gsus4 Arp ( typical Barre 6 note voicing )
    landing on the 3rd of Cmaj7 ( the COM )

    Then I heard the b7 and a little Blues Lick so the Cmaj7 had to go Minor 7th and to FMajor ...then back to Cmaj7...

    A nice little Melody for a smooth Jazz Tune..( which should be too R&B for smooth Jazz after I Rhythmatize it and program the Drums etc.)



    And of course the Bridge might go to Bflat or Eminor
    off that ii- V.


    Not sure if there is a name for Bi Regionality ( pompous term lol ) ..

    Also earlier in the Thread I used the Term ' secondary target ' for targeting a Chord in Improv. which is
    Not the COM..

    What is this called ?

    Or if no term ...what should we call it ?

    Again the stuff I am talking about ( and Playing) would be more 'Modern' I assume though mostly very inside..

    LCC:
    I think that the Major and Minor Penta over Major and Minor Chords respectively .. are more Consonant than Lydian ...and that those scales Russel quotes only work by 'Vertical Coincidence' - which is fine ..whatever works - but to make up a big' Theory 'about it ....that's the part I disagree with.
    Like 'Harmolodics' per Ornette Coleman and James Ulmer ...

    For me the Relationships of Keys and scales and the Chromatic Scale are much clearer looking at Modes and Pentatonics.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 01-05-2018 at 01:21 PM.

  34. #983

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    ... the chord solo over west coast blues also has it over the Bm7 E7 part at the 4:50 mark. a mistake, huh?
    For that one, my first thoughts would never be that it was a mistake. My first thought was that it sounded like chord grip moved over the neck in "parallel motion", regardless of key, in order to achieve effect of surprise and additional interest in listener, where particular musical meaning is pretty much irrelevant.

    Back to "4 on 6", in this solo, there are other details, like string buzzing (?) at exactly the moment, like the finger was meant to be on adjacent fret (I think I can even hear some quick motion btw two frets), but since it actually landed elsewhere " ... let's move ..." ...

    Also, I have a second thought about it ...
    Last edited by Vladan; 01-05-2018 at 11:45 AM.
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  35. #984

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    Yea... personally I hear it as G MM and moving up diatonically... the mistake is using the Ab, which could be from C whole tone. Try using C whole tone and making it work... Do you really hear the harmony changing to C WT.

    the lick is A Bb D F#...D E G# (Ab)...E F# Bb, I hear as mistake...

  36. #985

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    I remember back in the 60's being told to think of the altered V7 chord as being Whole Tone stacked on a Dim. chord ... It worked sort mechanically.... but the thinking or theory behind, never made sense. Why am I mixing two symmetrical scales or chords to get a V7 chord...

    Then I bumped into MM and different approaches of Functional harmony... if WT works for anyone, go for it. more of a written tradition approach.

  37. #986

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Yea... personally I hear it as G MM and moving up diatonically... the mistake is using the Ab, which could be from C whole tone. Try using C whole tone and making it work... Do you really hear the harmony changing to C WT.

    the lick is A Bb D F#...D E G# (Ab)...E F# Bb, I hear as mistake...
    Good to know, bases of our "mistake" claims are different.

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  38. #987

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan View Post
    Still, you are the only one who deserved a like from me, probably because you were the only one to note what actually happens at 0:42.



    Exactly my first thoughts. Leaping around until you hit familiar ground. But, hey, it is Wes, he must have done it on purpose.
    So at :42, they're in middle of solo section, different changes. At bar 9 it's G-7. No Eb-7 to Ab7.

  39. #988

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    So at :42, they're in middle of solo section, different changes. At bar 9 it's G-7. No Eb-7 to Ab7.
    The lick that was mentioned is a bit before 0:42 if I hear correctly there's Bb - Eb - D - Ab line in bass behind this lick

  40. #989

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    Yea... personally I hear it as G MM and moving up diatonically... the mistake is using the Ab, which could be from C whole tone. Try using C whole tone and making it work... Do you really hear the harmony changing to C WT.

    the lick is A Bb D F#...D E G# (Ab)...E F# Bb, I hear as mistake...
    Sure the lick is a bit mechanical I agree... a pattern transposed... but a mistake? I think more or less correct judgement about it as a mistake can be made if lots of Wes solos analyzed and there is nothing like this any more...

    Another point... there are different players' mentalities... some players take chances much more than others... and get taken away in playing.. they could be deliverately going to teh point where they lose concious control just following that feel now..
    Not always succefully but is it a mistake?
    To me Wes is really often being carried away... and in my favourite solos there are always moents that feel like he just could not stop and ran too far into something that has no coninuation... and he makes kind of stop and switches to another idea

    But players of such a level have enough skills to cover mistakes and come out clean so it could be difficult to say if it was on purpose or not...

    And also I agree that to my ear all MM sound would sound better (C triad instead of C aug).. more tasty.. not only because of theoretic explanation... but just because to my ear it's more interesting idea musically.... more integral
    (TBH when I first heard the line I thought it was G not Ab there)
    Last edited by Jonah; 01-05-2018 at 03:46 PM.

  41. #990

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    If you want to hear Wes really making a mistake, listen to this from 7:30 onwards. At least it proves he was human!


  42. #991

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    Same lick, or not?






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  43. #992

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    Ok... I'll take your word for it...so same thing I still hear the the Ab or G# as mistake ... Or... he wanted to play constant structure augmented triads or WT cycle.... Why would one play something not close to almost all the organization of the tune and never develop the New relationship. MM has already been established, melody, changes, improve. The 1st and 3rd Aug. triads are already in Gmm.
    Bbmaj#5 and D7b13.

    I'm pretty simple granted, I don't look for magic. But I do see and hear harmony. One can call anything anything if it works for them... I tend to think and hear as a harmonic rhythmic section player. Later wes did spell Gmm to Csus C7 , at around 1:15, but 99% of the playing is very basic... just great music.

    Yea I've never though of Wes at a technical player, not tons of chops, pretty much played straight down the middle, simple etc... but he did it well.

    How did this thread get into melodic lick organization. CST is a harmonic analysis concept. Is it Wes's use of MM for II Vs... he also use altered II V in Maj. contexts a lot... which could be a CST thing, but seems more like just relative and parallel applications. Cole Porter school.

    Maybe we could make the thread more useful... post examples of different approaches playing 4 on 6. I still love the tune. The Talking about it seems to get messy.

  44. #993

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    Same lick, or not?
    Yes (I could not hear it the second video - I missed it?).
    It tells that he used it conciously. So strictly speaking it's not a mistake (if we call 'mistake' a failed attempt of a player to take chances rith there). It was his choice obviously.
    Probably there was something Wes liked about that sound.

    But I should say again I undestand what Reg means... to my ear natural G in that lick would sound better.
    And also I agree the explanation GMM over tonic G minor chord... because I can hear that harmonic sound (minor with nat6 and maj7) and I like it and Ab falls out of it... actually it's exactly what I tried to talk about some posts before - scale harmonic sound.. if you hear it you use as a harmonic idea and develope it.. if not you do something different.
    Probably Wes did not... it does not make it worse, just very different.

  45. #994

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    regarding the lick, it's just a whole-tone idea over a minor chord that stems from the swing era. C whole tone over Gm. wes may have learned it from a charlie christian stardust solo. i'm sure you'll also find examples by tatum or byas. early 40s monk anyone?
    You mean at 2:40? If yes, I would not call a whole - tone idea..

  46. #995

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    Yes (I could not hear it the second video - I missed it?).
    ...

    And also I agree the explanation GMM over tonic G minor chord... because I can hear that harmonic sound (minor with nat6 and maj7) and I like it ....

    Probably Wes did not... it does not make it worse, just very different.
    Cool, just checking if we talk about same thing, bar 9 of the form and it's surrounding.


    GMM over G tonic minor I hear as something I do not like. I like E, but I do not like F#, except as passing note.
    In both recordings of the lick when he goes from F# to C, I hear something muffled that could be aborted slide to F, but more likely is just a byproduct of movable shape, which would be slide to G. Possibly he was aware of the effect it could make on people like my self.
    Also, seen as continuation of previous bars , like "out" version of previous lick, it starts with hi G, before it goes to BbDF# moving shape.

    That said, what he does, I think, he treats the harmony of the moment as if it was not Gm7, but rather Gm7 to C7 alternating vamp, consistent to harmony of the head, simplified to C7(alt?). Kind of MM step below V, but he decided it was easier to use shape in parallel motion "jazz hack tool", where one note is off ( F#), but in overall ambiguity does not mean much, even adds interest.

    100% repetition of the lick in context suggest it was not improvised on the spot.

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  47. #996

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    Cool, just checking if we talk about same thing, bar 9 of the form and it's surrounding.
    yes. In the 1st video you posted it's 0:47. And in the 2nd long video I could not hear that lick (by the way that record is half step higher)


    Also, seen as continuation of previous bars , like "out" version of previous lick, it starts with hi G, before it goes to BDF# moving shape.
    Yes, I agree.. in that record


    But in this the lick is not prepared by previous phrase

    Wes Montgomery-Four On Six (1965)-Guitarra de Jazz. - YouTube

    That said, what he does, I think, he treats the harmony of the moment as if it was not Gm7, but rather Gm7 to C7 alternating vamp, consistent to harmony of the head, simplified to C7(alt?). Kind of MM step below V, but he decided it was easier to use shape in parallel motion "jazz hack tool", where one note is off ( F#), but in overall ambiguity does not mean much, even adds interest.
    Could be... consindering original changes Gm to C... why not...
    so he treats that Ab as sort of b13 in C?

    As for F#... I don't know... anything could be... If he played next C-E-G that F# would be resolved.. and nex D-F# - Bb would sound like V (D major) with aug 5th as anticipation of Gminor.

    I am not sure if would actually really explain it except that je liked it and it was moveable shape...

    Everything is possible... I don't know how he came up with it. Maybe occasionally and he liked the outside sound of the whole lick and had fun with without thinkong a lot of it.

    but if I have to analyze it (as myself) then it's not the lick that I really find very interesting.

  48. #997

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    Yea Anything can work, and yes doesn't sound improvised.

    It's just a personal thing form years ago.

    When I see and hear a tune that used MM as 50% of the head and in that part of the solo section... it would be natural to use C7#11, D7b13, E-7b5, F#-7b5(F#7altered) to get to C-7 F7 / Bbmaj7 etc... Which is close to using whole tone, but personally feels like better relationship to start developing. It would nave been cool to hear Wes develop the partial Whole tone lick...

    There is usually a difference between using a 7th chord as a Dominant and embellishing as compared to when a 7th chord is part of a chord Pattern, like the II V. In chord patterns, they are usually subdominant or tonic.

    I bet someone told Wes... hey her is a cool idea for intro lick for soloing or something like that.

    Hell maybe he played 7th#11 chords up in whole tone pattern to get to the C-7, but instead played C7#11
    C7#11, D7#11, E7#11, F#7#11, G#7#11, Bb7#11...C7#11, Bbma7, A-7 D7 G-7...at least there would be a connection to tune.

  49. #998

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    Nice topic saving to read better latter.