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Also...I wonder where i can get a free i phone?
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08-01-2009 04:33 AM
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Yeah that's the way I do it though I think of the A minor scale being altered, and I think of the A phyrgian scale as being notes on top of the canvas of an A minor chord. Same idea for all the modes - and that is what the post I linked to above shows.
Originally Posted by mike walker
An Am canvas that you paint with a bunch of Phrygian notes. So I'm visualizing say... this chord while playing these notes:
And more importantly to me... it sounds phyrgian. The thing is it's easy to play the notes of A phyrgian and have it sound like F major, you need to emphasize the notes of the Am chord; and those 1/2 step phyrgian sounding parts of the scale; and the note that makes phyrgian different than Aoelian (the b2) needs to be in play... that way you tonicize (is that a word?) the A minor; the A minor needs to sound as the one chord. If you don't do that it doesn't sound phyrgian, at least not to me.Last edited by fep; 08-01-2009 at 10:46 AM.
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I'll add my 2 cents for what it is worth
I've learned the modes through both of these techniques ( ie breaking down the ionian scale and just memorizing fingerings ) One point I haven't noticed mentioned yet is if you are modifying the ionian scale, learning the modes through the diatonic harmonic progression can be more difficult and less enlightening regarding the changes in tone from each mode. If you were to order the modes from brightest ( most sharp ) to darkest( most flat ) they would be
Lydian
Ionian
Mixolydian
Dorian
Aeolian
Phyrgian
Locrian
If you learn the modes from one position on the fretboard you might consider learning them in this order as each builds on the next and you hear the tonal difference.
Regarding the fingerings, if you have learned the major scale up the fretboard on the sixth string starting with each scale degree and are comfortable with those fingerings why not just use those fingerings for the different modes? If
you haven't learned those fingerings you should really start there. So you can use the fingering of the major scale on the third degree of the scale to play phyrgian at the root of the scale. This has already been mentioned I believe but if you understand this and know the major scale then you have the fingerings. The other suggestions of running through the cycles in all keys helps reinforce all of this.
Hope this is clear!
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I haven't learned the major scale from each degree, only from the root. However, I know bebop scales (based off mixolydian) from root, third, fifth and seventh. Major scale fingerings seem like a logical place to start, is there any lesson that points out the fingering starting from each degree? I could always figure it out but I'm not sure what fingering would be best. Would you guys reccomend three note per string fingerings?
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Didn't you say you had until next May? Start with these then apply the lesson above about what to change. You'll be way ahead. Originally Posted by seagullc
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You could try learning and playing all major scales in one position. This will give you twelve fingerings. You can then practice playing each major scale in twelve different positions. Next pick any position to play any modal scale you want. You just need to relate the mode to the appropriate major scale and pick a position to play it in. Actually, JohnW400 has already given you , I believe 6 of the fingerings.
To make it less overwhelming learn 1 or 2 fingerings a week. You'll have them down in 6 to twelve weeks.
Later on you can do the same thing with arrpegios. Twleve fingerings, twelve different positions for each chord type.Last edited by Patriots2006; 08-02-2009 at 05:52 AM.
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Originally Posted by Patriots2006
Since you mentioned arps. Start with these and then change the quality till you cover all the 7ths
Now you'll really be ahead
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JohnW400, That's a nice way to lay out the arrpegios for someone just learning. Makes it easy to comprehend. Kudos to you.
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I relate to the chords. In the key of C, for example, the three note chords built upon each note of the scale are Cmaj, Dm, Em, Fmaj, Gmaj, Am, Bdim, C. If you build four note chords over the scale, they are Cmj7, Dm7, Em7, Fmaj7, G7, Am7, Bmyb5, Cmaj7.
OK, each chord represents a different mode:
C = Ionian
Dm = Dorian
Em = Phrygian
Fmaj = Lydian
G = Mixolydian
Am = Aeolian
Bdim = Locrian
So if you want to play, for instance, a G lydian scale, know that the G is the 4th degree of the key of D. Play a D scale over an imaginary G chord.
Seems complicated, but once you get it, everything computes instantly. I know it does for me.
And let me add, that everything above is predicated on practicing. there ain't no shortcuts, you absolutely have to put in the work.Last edited by lkmuller; 08-06-2009 at 01:17 AM. Reason: Addition
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Thanks for all the documents and tips guys. I've got started on learning the Ionian scale starting from the root (knew this already) , third, fifth, and seventh. Then I'm going to apply what is neccesary to modify it into the other modes (b7 for mixolydian, etc.)
One thing I'm wondering is if it's neccesary to learn the scale from each degree, or just the arpeggio notes. My guitar teacher told me to learn from root, 3rd, 5th, and 7th but some people on here are saying to learn the scale from every degree (1,2,3,4,5,6,7).
What do you think?Last edited by seagullc; 08-08-2009 at 12:40 AM.
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I think that eventually you'll know them from every degree anyway, and again, eventually, even stop thinking of them as individual modes.
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Hi Seagul and all
Try www.guitarmodes.com.au it will cost $25au. You will have the whole lot nailed in 30minutes. Guaranteed. (inludes the LATEST simplest method for double stop harmonies and a section on Pitch Axis Theory) The Guitarmodes method will alleviate the delemma of understanding modes once and for all. Big call I know, just read the Critiques on the site. They are genuine. Formal theoretical terminology and indicators are used to allow a smooth transition to a formal teacher. I am working hard to get this copyright method out to the world. Use it as your teaching resourse. Please contact me for any info.
Left and right hand fun riff on You TubeLast edited by Jay Stone; 08-20-2009 at 08:02 AM. Reason: test
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Here's a neat trick to help memorize the cycle of 4ths:
Going around by 4ths, starting at C, scales with flat notes,
next is F-- 1st fret, 6th string
next is Bb-- 1st fret, 5th string,
next is Eb-- 1st fret, 4th string
next is Ab-- 1st fret, 3rd string
when you get to Db, Gb, those are 2nd fret (2nd string, 1st string)
Each key adds a flat (C has no flats, F has 1 flat, Bb has 2 flats, etc)
Now to go continue into scales that have sharps,
next is F#-- 2nd fret, 6th string
next is B-- 2nd fret, 5th string,
E-- 2nd fret, 4th string
A-- 2nd fret, 3rd string
D, G-- up to 3rd fret, 2nd string, 1st string
Each step loses a sharp, starting with F# (6 sharps), etc.
This idea is a bit abstract, but I found it's a handy tool for learning to memorize keys.
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Thanks for all the tips guys, I have all the modes memorized now from root, third, fifth and seventh. It was easier than I thought once I applied myself and used all the information you all gave me!
Jackson, thanks for the info there - good way of looking at the cycle of fifths on guitar.
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At risk of sounding smug,may I humbly offer the following advice
1) If your intention is merewly to play lots of single notes FASTER than anyone else,then perhaps modes may be useful.However,just using them to learn rules so that you are 'not harmonically out of tune with chords being played does not create music.You'll fool the non musicians and those who sit in a music shop playing stairway to heaven but it wont make you into a useful musician
2) If we're talking about jazz, almost all the good mucicians knew nothing about modes,and each one had his own'voice'on the guitar.They all had good ears.They didn't practice scales/modes/exercises.They played what they would play on the gig...that is TUNES Melodies,arrangements...and they were mostly self taught.
3) Even if the following seems 'alien' to you musicwise,I suggest that you listen to 'THE GREAT AMERICAN SONGBOOK', that is the great standards that Sinatra and such sang.Listen to the CHORD PROGRESSIONS and become adept at playing good accompaniement.Not only will this make you into a VERY MUSICAL person,but it will also make you POPULAR with other musicians.To sit waiting in a group until it's time to take a solo does not help the other players.They appreciate being given a reliable rhythm and chords to play off.You are then both prompting musically AND filling out and embellishing the sound.THAT IS THE PLACE TO BEGIN,You'll gradually build up a repertoire and a good ear.
Get BAND IN A BOX and use midi files to play against.
If you want WORK then sometimes playing too much or too complicated will lose the booker and/or audience.I'm only too well aware that in my reasonably successful musical career(QE2/records,BBc radio ,best hotels etc,our success was partly due to not being too complex as a trio(2 gtrs and vocal) AND having a unique total sound or identity.(happy accident)
Dont be too 'clever' Your repertoire will match with your intended audience.
I'm happy to elaborate if required.
There are LOTS of techniques I wish I had under my fingers(Lenny Breau,Martin Taylor,Tuck Andress etc ,) but that is for my own personal gratification;it's what I choose to play in which venue which is more important than having amazing technique.So decide if you wish to play to earn a living before embarking on insular excursions.The above are THE BEST and I bet non of them know nothing about modes and/or never think about them.TED GREENE spent his life becoming an expert harmonically and used his ear.
Look up ALL of the above and Django Rheinhardt,Les Paul etc.It'll fill you with ideas but dont copy..just be yourself.
Geoff Menzer
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Thanks for the advice Geoff. My goal definately isn't to play notes fast, or to just run through modes over a progression. Simply put, I believe the more theory that I learn and absorb the higher potential my playing has to improve. Lots of good players only played by ear, but that doesn't make knowledge of theory a bad thing. I have no desire to only play solos or anything of the sort - this is just the current thing I'm working on im my playing, both for personal gain and to prepare for my audition which states that I need to know the modes.
Your tip about playing for the audience is very true though, I'll have to remember to not get too show offy in my playing depending on who is listening.
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Originally Posted by geoff menzer
Nice post and good advice. (although I don't mean to discourage Seagulic's quest). I wish I had spent more time on tunes than theory. Personally I found learning all the modes a waste of time and focus.
IMO, they are such a brute force and ineffective way of conceptualizing music. However, they seem to satisfy those who like a reductionist viewpoint of music offering hope that "the secret of jazz is hidden in the modes".
Unfortunately, it seems that modes have become a fundamental yardstick for testing someone's knowledge of the fretboard in the world of academia, probably because the concept fits nicely on the page that says "prerequisites" on college and university course schedules,. I suppose learning them can't hurt even if it is to realize that there are more effective and practical ways of conceptualizing music.
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The thing that Im getting out of this post is that most think that the modes are an end unto itself.
Honestly, I think you're looking at all this stuff, scales, arp's, modes, wrong.
They are nothing more than mechanisms to help train your ears and fingers. They are like learning a foreign language. You have vocabulary, grammer, slang, READING, poetry, whatever.
I can't remember anybody trying to have a conversation with me using say, only words that end in s, or only metaphors or homonyms. That's not the way language works nor is it the way music works.
In language, the more articulate one wants to become, the more words they learn in order to more correctly convey what their talking about.
Same in music. All these things are ways for us to become more articulate on our instruments. The more "words" you know, the better you can express yourself and your ideas.
Think of modes , scales, arpeggios as simple vocabulary excercises that you eventualy stop as you become more fluent in the language.
And to become more fluent in the language, that means playing tunes.
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Jazzaluk and JohnW400 are both giving you excellent advice. If I was able start all over again, my first steps would be to listen to the music I want to emulate, get a guitar I like the sound of, get it set up by a pro and buy a copy of band in the box. Building your chops is simply a matter of dedicating some daily time to exercises that build accuracy and agility in your fingers. ALWAYS practise with a metranome or something like BIAB. Next I would buy Mark Levine's book on Jazz theory and read some part of it daily. This will give you all the theory you will ever need. Also, I would buy a copy of the Real Book series and use it for both reading and inputting songs into BIAB. I know you can buy tunes already made up for BIAB but IMHO, you will benefit much more from learning how to use BIAB as a tool for learning. It is very useful for practising songs, transcribing and studying as well as making up exercises to play along with. Find yourself a good teacher to guide you through some of the difficult things you will find along the way and take every opportunity to play with others. The process of learning jazz guitar is a lifetime effort and will give you an unbelievable amount of pleasure and satisfaction. good luck!!
wiz
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While I agree with what you guys are saying, I don't think learning the modes themselves are a bad thing. Some people apply the modes badly and don't use their ear, sure, or they just run scales in their soloing - but that depends on their own application of the modes. Using the modes and using your ear/learning tunes are not mutually exclusive. The modes are just another tool for me to consider when I'm trying to convey my voice through the instrument. To say they are a bad idea altogether is like saying learning to read music is useless because lifting songs by ear is the better practice for a jazz musician.
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You better believe all the great jazzers know there scales, arpeggios, modes,
etc etc.
Don't have barriers, for whatever reason.
Modes are just another way of understanding a sound. And if you understand it, then you can communicate it to others.
If ya don't like the name "Mode' change it to 'Mood".
If modes didn't do it for ya, then that's ok. That's personal.
But that doesn't make it someone else's truth.
Modes are innocent until someone gets hold of them, who doesn't know how to use them, and proves them guilty.
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Originally Posted by seagullc
Don't misunderstand. No one said they're bad. It's just that they are not the beginning and end of music. You have to learn ALL this stuff. But not get hung up on it.
Too many people start thinking about what mode to play rather than what sounds to play. Do you hear dominant, major, minor , diminsihed, etc? and then what variant of each.
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08-23-2009, 01:09 PM #48Jazzarian GuestHaving a few years of music theory under my belt, I still can't think that way "on the fly". Sure on paper it's easy. Originally Posted by JohnW400
I tend to view my diatonic modes as displacements from the major, in perhaps 3 different overall patterns covering 2 octaves (and a bit more if possible).
D Dorian to D Phrygian? I tend to think ii of C Major and iii of Bb Major. Which note(s) changed? B ->Bb, E ->Eb. To me that's easier to do on the fly.
Is that a weird way of looking at it?
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It's not weird Jazza, it's very common. Originally Posted by Jazzarian
If you play c maj can ya make it sound like Cmaj on its own?
If ya play D Dorian can ya make it sound like Dmin with a 6th?
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08-23-2009, 04:30 PM #50Jazzarian Guest Originally Posted by mike walker
For on the fly, pragmatism is best. I know patternA, how does pattern B differ?
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