Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Posts 1 to 50 of 68
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    Can anyone explain me the use of this chord? It sounds as if it is a kind of tonic with tension. One can play it with drop 3 and drop 2s. Anyone know a lot about this chord function and maybe about its voicings? The note is contained in the diminished scale, but the chord sounds far from dominant, but who knows?
    Last edited by yaclaus; 10-14-2016 at 04:44 PM.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    Lots of uses... some things I like it for

    -Subbed in for a regular diminished chord
    -Subbed in for a dominant 7 chord (built from the b7 gives a 13b9, built from the 3rd gives a 7#9)
    -Subbed in to create tension and movement when there's a tonic major chord held for long periods of time. Like first few bars of Remember April... going back and forth between GdimMaj7 and GMaj creates some cool movement (F# - G over a G bass pedal... root and 7th can stay the same while the 3rd and 5th move in half steps)

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by yaclaus
    Can anyone explain me the use of this chord? It sounds as if it is a kind of tonic with tension. One can play it with drop 3 and drop 2s. Anyone know a lot about this chord function and maybe about its voicings? The note is contained in the diminished scale, but the chord sounds far from dominant, but who knows?
    diminished chord doesnt have a dominant function. if its usage known in applied dominant category, the "function" you hear is like modulating to another key -- to give you a perception of changing region. so it sounds like it has a dominant function. but the actual usage of diminished chord is for embellishing.

    7th chord is another topic. its an extension chord. meaning the triad is built upon extension tone that is not part of the harmonic tone, a.k.a non harmonic tone. and you can add a chromatic non harmonic tone for that matter. in this case, dimM7th is a dim triad with chromatic non harmonic tone attached. but where does it come from?

    u've mentioned before that its contained in diminished scale or should i say octatonic scale. truth is, that scale is not part of tonal harmonic system. i think the earliest composition using that scale is in the early 20th century atonal music. but in the context of tonal music, imo, people use it for outside playing.

    sure u can say thats from diminished scale. but i prefer to say thats coming from the technique of mixture (which scale must be part of the system) or voice leading motion like in the neapolitan 6th chord.

    hope that helps.

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    With a Cdmimaj7 you have C-Eb-Gb-B which form a Bmaj triad with a b9 on the bass. It has a different, more ambiguous sound then the regular dim/dominant sound.


    ---------------
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpG...ehpkEjhFsr-FZQ

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    When I first saw the title to the thread I was like "wtf is a dim maj 7??". After playing around with it I realize I have been using that chord quite a bit, but thinking of it as a dom7#9 or a major b9 or dom7b9. So yeah, there are lots of uses for it. And i'm not sure what the hell EJ is talking about above, but both dim7 and half-dim7 chords are in fact used in place of the dominant. I even remember back in college music theory class we were instructed to analyze the vii chord as a V chord since usually that is how it is used in classical music.

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by yaclaus
    Can anyone explain me the use of this chord? It sounds as if it is a kind of tonic with tension. One can play it with drop 3 and drop 2s. Anyone know a lot about this chord function and maybe about its voicings? The note is contained in the diminished scale, but the chord sounds far from dominant, but who knows?
    Assuming you mean a diminished triad with a major 7th - eg C Eb Gb B - I agree that's an interesting chord with an ambiguous function.

    If you mean a full dim7 with a maj7 added, that's a inverted 7b9 chord, with a clear dominant function.

    The reason C Eb Gb B is ambiguous is it lacks the A that would reveal it as an inverted B7b9, or simply D#dim7 with a b13 extension. Probably resolving to Em or Emaj.

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    I use that voicing as a rootless 13b9 chord. So you C Eb G B example is a D13b9

    Edit: I should read whole posts instead of last replies
    Last edited by mr. beaumont; 10-16-2016 at 03:06 PM.

  9. #8
    This chord crops up a lot in diminished harmonies and plays nice with quartal voicings as well.

    1. It spells a b913. Pretty straightforward.

    2. Tonic major sub. Sometimes, but not my go-to application. Use this one sparingly. I suppose in a more "modern" context you can do this all day long.

    3. Used to harmonize a diminished scale. Play a #9 on the root note, then a dim/maj7 on the b9. Alternate between these two chords as you go up the scale and you get a harmonized octotonic scale. For example: G#9, Ab dim/maj7, Bb#9, B dim/maj7, Db#9, D dim/maj7, and so on. In this context, you can think of this chord as a b9 in 5th inversion. You would never play it that way. Typically it would be treated as voice leading.

    4. Spells a rootless #9 in first inversion. From the 3rd you also get the 7th, #9, and the 5th. Very cool.

    5. It shows up in the "Barry Harris/dim6/harmonized bebop scale." (Too many names for this pedagogical crutch). In this case it is the 4th and flat 6th chord of the scale. It really is functioning as an embellishment for voice leading. Very handy for harmonizing major lines where the #5 goes down to the 5th. From the root, you get F, B, E, and Ab. These would move down to a pleasant Em11 quartal voicing: from root, E, A, D, G. Very satisfying. This dim/maj7 can also go up to a G11. This chord scale arrangement is arrived at by startin on a Imaj7 block chord and moving up the scale, minding every Ab along the way up or down. For instance: I maj7, ii7b5, iii11, iv dim/maj7, V11, bvi dim/maj7, vi min/maj7, vii7b5.

    From the last example I really start relating this chord to #9s and quartal voicings. These are all ambiguous structures. Try harmonizing the melodic minor with an added b6 as the additional passing tone. The dim maj 7 pops up a couple times with some cool quartal voicings that are adjacent. These voicings and they're respective voice leading allow you to really spice up your comping.

    Also, in terms of voice leading, there are so many adjacent voicings surrounding this chord. By moving one note, you can get maj7#11, min7b5, 13, dim7, 11, min/maj7, etc.

  10. #9
    Wow, impressive first post indeed! Thanks a lot.

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarzen
    When I first saw the title to the thread I was like "wtf is a dim maj 7??". After playing around with it I realize I have been using that chord quite a bit, but thinking of it as a dom7#9 or a major b9 or dom7b9. So yeah, there are lots of uses for it. And i'm not sure what the hell EJ is talking about above, but both dim7 and half-dim7 chords are in fact used in place of the dominant. I even remember back in college music theory class we were instructed to analyze the vii chord as a V chord since usually that is how it is used in classical music.
    Sure u can base on your theoretical background. But I'm not into all verticality harmonic analysis. It's more of the motion towards the function I V I or tonic dominant tonic. And everything in between is a prolongation. So in my case its not about the question of dim function. It's rather how to prolong the function with diminished chord. And what I mean by dim is not just VII or leading tone chord. It could be in any degree without changing its "function" to prolong.

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by EJGuitar
    Sure u can base on your theoretical background. But I'm not into all verticality harmonic analysis. It's more of the motion towards the function I V I or tonic dominant tonic. And everything in between is a prolongation. So in my case its not about the question of dim function. It's rather how to prolong the function with diminished chord. And what I mean by dim is not just VII or leading tone chord. It could be in any degree without changing its "function" to prolong.
    We call that "word salad".

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarzen
    We call that "word salad".
    It's very obvious that your college taught you a rigid and narrow music theory back then.

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by EJGuitar
    It's very obvious that your college taught you a rigid and narrow music theory back then.
    No, it's just that you make no sense whatsoever. To my knowledge there is no such thing as "rigid and narrow music theory". Music theory is simply information. People can certainly be narrow or rigid in their thinking, which I am not. I simply cannot understand what the hell you are talking about. It just sounds like your tossing random words together, that as far as I can tell have no clear meaning. And I have a degree in this stuff. So if I can't understand you, I don't know how anyone else would be able to.

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    Well I understand what EJ Guitar is saying.

    A lot of chords are the product of melody note + bass line + inner voice leading rather than some kind of vertical block chord concept. In classic Western harmony the interplay between the vertical (chordal) and horizontal (melodic) elements is subtle and carefully managed so that both elements can be strong and yet also work together. That's what classical harmony is really.

    In older songs the melody note was harmonised after it was written and the composer might have added in some extra spiffy chromatic movement to spruce things up from the regular diatonic stuff.

    They were thinking of alterations to the prevailing key to create more interesting voice leading and as EJ says this would set up dissonances or prolongations that would lead to more stable sonorities through the use of classic embellishments like suspensions, apoggiaturas and so on.

    This is how Bach and all that lot operated. (That's why it's hard to write a jazz style chord chart even for something harmonically simple like Purcell arias - there's so much embellishment.) By the 20th century harmony had got pretty chromatic with the influence of the late Romantics - even in popular song. The original charts often get boiled down to simpler chords which allow jazz musicians to improvise freely on them. In fact, most experienced jazz musicians have this boiling down ability available on the fly.

    If you dig around in the older repertoire you see a lot of this stuff going on. Having, for example a D melody note on an Ebo7 chord, for example (although a B would be more customary, which would be a Co7(maj7) in fact.)

    These chords often pop up in Gypsy Jazz charts where they are confusingly written as 13b9 chords which also messes up the bass player. So we have G13b9 instead of what should be written - Abo7(#5)

    (Gypsy Jazz harmony is a f**king mess though, to be fair ;-))

    Django writes in Manoir de mes Reves, for example an F# melody on a Bbo7 chord which while technically is a Bbo7(#5) chord does invert to our dim7(maj7) structure, Go7(maj7) in this case.

    These days melody and background harmony is combined into a vertical system in which everything is built from chords. So if you see one of these in a modern chart it's probably some sort of diminished scale thing because that's what people learn at jazz school.
    Last edited by christianm77; 10-19-2016 at 05:33 AM.

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    EJ Guitar is using terms from Schenkerian analysis.

    Steve Larson did a lot of work looking at jazz through that lens. It's a different way to look at things, although honestly not one that particularly excites me. But other people have found it very helpful.

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    Okay - what I like here is that you use vertical and horizontal to refer to chords and melodies. As a flutist, a big part of my problem is that I am learning all melody lines - reading sheet music - it's all horizontal. So here I am trying to learn to improvise and I quickly find out that it's all built on vertical thinking - the chord and even the scale is a vertical framework if you think about it. I never saw it like that.

    So my challenge is that integration. One teacher told me (like 10 years ago) how to improvise. "Just outline the chords," he said. I did play some guitar a long time ago, learned ten or so chords and a bunch of country songs. So at least I understood the idea.

    Thanks ChristianM and all here, because these comments help me get closer to putting it all together. I need to get more vertical! Hahaha.
    Mike

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Well I understand what EJ Guitar is saying.

    A lot of chords are the product of melody note + bass line + inner voice leading rather than some kind of vertical block chord concept. In classic Western harmony the interplay between the vertical (chordal) and horizontal (melodic) elements is subtle and carefully managed so that both elements can be strong and yet also work together. That's what classical harmony is really.

    In older songs the melody note was harmonised after it was written and the composer might have added in some extra spiffy chromatic movement to spruce things up from the regular diatonic stuff.

    They were thinking of alterations to the prevailing key to create more interesting voice leading and as EJ says this would set up dissonances or prolongations that would lead to more stable sonorities through the use of classic embellishments like suspensions, apoggiaturas and so on.

    This is how Bach and all that lot operated. (That's why it's hard to write a jazz style chord chart even for something harmonically simple like Purcell arias - there's so much embellishment.) By the 20th century harmony had got pretty chromatic with the influence of the late Romantics - even in popular song. The original charts often get boiled down to simpler chords which allow jazz musicians to improvise freely on them. In fact, most experienced jazz musicians have this boiling down ability available on the fly.

    If you dig around in the older repertoire you see a lot of this stuff going on. Having, for example a D melody note on an Ebo7 chord, for example (although a B would be more customary, which would be a Co7(maj7) in fact.)

    These chords often pop up in Gypsy Jazz charts where they are confusingly written as 13b9 chords which also messes up the bass player. So we have G13b9 instead of what should be written - Abo7(#5)

    (Gypsy Jazz harmony is a f**king mess though, to be fair ;-))

    Django writes in Manoir de mes Reves, for example an F# melody on a Bbo7 chord which while technically is a Bbo7(#5) chord does invert to our dim7(maj7) structure, Go7(maj7) in this case.

    These days melody and background harmony is combined into a vertical system in which everything is built from chords. So if you see one of these in a modern chart it's probably some sort of diminished scale thing because that's what people learn at jazz school.

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    Main usage:

    "Subbed in to create tension and movement when there's a tonic major chord held for long periods of time. Like first few bars of Remember April... going back and forth between GdimMaj7 and GMaj creates some cool movement (F# - G over a G bass pedal... root and 7th can stay the same while the 3rd and 5th move in half steps)"

    ... extremely useful effect in ballads for embellishing the tonic...Stella, Misty, etc
    ... sort of reminds me of chro
    matic blues 3rds


    Last edited by rintincop; 10-20-2016 at 02:02 PM.

  19. #18

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    Main usage:

    "Subbed in to create tension and movement when there's a tonic major chord held for long periods of time. Like first few bars of Remember April... going back and forth between GdimMaj7 and GMaj creates some cool movement (F# - G over a G bass pedal... root and 7th can stay the same while the 3rd and 5th move in half steps)"

    ... extremely useful effect in ballads for embellishing the tonic...Stella, Misty, etc
    ... sort of reminds me of chro
    matic blues 3rds


    Man, who's this dummy you're quoting from here rintin? haha

    Yes. Great in ballads. Someone was just hitting me up asking me questions about this video I posted forever ago with a solo rendition of Misty and had me watching it again and helping him analyze a couple things in it... including this exact chord in question and it's use... the dimMaj7 chord built on the tonic resolving to the tonic Maj7 chord (technically Maj9). It happens coming out of the bridge, resolving from the dominant chord (Bb13b9) to the EbdimMaj7 and THEN resolving to the EbMaj9. Around 2:05 into the video.


    Also... while great in ballads, still fantastic for mid and uptempo tunes. But a listening example either way seems like a good idea amidst all the theory talk.

  20. #19

    User Info Menu

    (Wrong post - ignore)
    Last edited by blille; 10-20-2016 at 08:13 PM. Reason: (Wrong reference sorry)

  21. #20

    User Info Menu

    CoM7

    This is one of those chords that doesn't actually mean anything. I mean, you can always chuck it in if you want a weird sound.

    The danger is thinking of it as another chord altogether just because it contains the same notes. By that reasoning any group of notes can be anything you want to call it. Technically, for example, x3444x is a CoM7 but you can call it a D7 and resolve it to GM7...

    But it's not a D7, it's a CoM7. So what use has it as a CoM7 ? Don't ask me
    Last edited by ragman1; 11-21-2016 at 08:56 AM.

  22. #21

    User Info Menu

    That's what they used to say about dominant seventh once

  23. #22

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    CoM7

    This is one of those chords that doesn't actually mean anything.
    So what use has it as a CoM7 ? Don't ask me

    It has great use as a dramatic effect when hanging out and embellishing on a tonic chord in a ballad !

  24. #23

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I use that voicing as a rootless 13b9 chord. So you C Eb G B example is a D13b9
    You mean C Eb Gb B, of course ...

    But yes, a rootless D13b9, I didn't notice that (I knew it had to be a partial dom7 of some kind, but didn't manage to think that far).

  25. #24

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by JonR
    You mean C Eb Gb B, of course ...

    But yes, a rootless D13b9, I didn't notice that (I knew it had to be a partial dom7 of some kind, but didn't manage to think that far).
    But that's my point, it's not a D7 chord, it's a C major chord!

  26. #25

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    It has great use as a dramatic effect when hanging out and embellishing on a tonic chord in a ballad !
    Well, I agree it sounds like it ought to resolve, probably to CM7.

    (edit) I've just noticed Jordan Klemons does just that - see his post & vid above.

    I might also use it as a sort of 'final strum' chord, just to be jazzy
    Last edited by ragman1; 10-22-2016 at 06:05 PM.

  27. #26

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    But that's my point, it's not a D7 chord, it's a C major chord!
    Here, you're called ragman. In real life your friends call you by your 'real' name... maybe Joe? If you have kids, they call you Dad. If you're talking to your parents, son... if you work retail, sir... if you're a school teacher, Mr. ________

    Different names for serving different function in different situations... same person.

    If the chord progression is D7 -> G and the bass player is playing root motion that states (or at least implies) that... and I play a CdimMaj7 resolving to B-7 chord, and someone asks me what chords I was playing, it wouldn't be wrong to say CdimMaj7 and B-7. But it also wouldn't be wrong to say D13b9 and GMaj9.

    EDIT: Funny, I started writing this before your previous post invoking my name.

  28. #27

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by jordanklemons
    Here, you're called ragman. In real life your friends call you by your 'real' name... maybe Joe? If you have kids, they call you Dad. If you're talking to your parents, son... if you work retail, sir... if you're a school teacher, Mr. ________

    Different names for serving different function in different situations... same person.

    If the chord progression is D7 -> G and the bass player is playing root motion that states (or at least implies) that... and I play a CdimMaj7 resolving to B-7 chord, and someone asks me what chords I was playing, it wouldn't be wrong to say CdimMaj7 and B-7. But it also wouldn't be wrong to say D13b9 and GMaj9.

    EDIT: Funny, I started writing this before your previous post invoking my name.
    If it was me I'd say the chord I intended to play. You said you used a EboM7 in Misty because that's what you meant it to be, right?

  29. #28

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    If it was me I'd say the chord I intended to play. You said you used a EboM7 in Misty because that's what you meant it to be, right?
    Sure. But I refer to that chord as an EbdimMaj7 both because that's what it spells out, but just as importantly because that's the function it's serving. I can, and do, use the exact same voicing as a dominant chord resolving to BbMaj and in those cases, I would refer to it as an F13b9. If someone wanted to get super specific and have an in depth theory conversation, I may talk about the dimMaj7 quality of the specific voicing. But I play a lot of rootless voicings and I generally think of them, conceptualize them on the fretboard, and name them based on their function and use.

  30. #29

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by jordanklemons
    just as importantly because that's the function it's serving
    That's all my point, not that the same notes can't spell a different chord with other functions.

  31. #30

    User Info Menu

    Oh. I must have misunderstood your earlier post.

    "The danger is thinking of it as another chord altogether just because it contains the same notes. By that reasoning any group of notes can be anything you want to call it. Technically, for example, x3444x is a CoM7 but you can call it a D7b13 and resolve it to GM7...

    But it's not a D7b13, it's a CoM7. So what use has it as a CoM7 ? Don't ask me "

    I thought you were saying that using it in a different function doesn't change the name or what it is.

  32. #31

    User Info Menu

    No, or is it yes? I'm lost!

    I think I was thinking that the thread's subject was about the dimM7 and its use. If one treated it as another kind of chord, i.e. a dom7, then the point was lost. Does that make sense? They wanted to know what that type of major chord was used for, not what other chords the notes spelled out. It's probably confusing to suggest that an altered major chord had the same use as an altered dominant because they don't resolve the same way.

    (Of course the other way to look at CoM7 is as B/C - and play E harmonic minor over it!).

  33. #32

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Does that make sense?
    Not really.


    I think we might be on two different pages. All good though.

  34. #33

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by jordanklemons
    Lots of uses... some things I like it for

    -Subbed in for a regular diminished chord
    -Subbed in for a dominant 7 chord (built from the b7 gives a 13b9, built from the 3rd gives a 7#9)
    -Subbed in to create tension and movement when there's a tonic major chord held for long periods of time. Like first few bars of Remember April... going back and forth between GdimMaj7 and GMaj creates some cool movement (F# - G over a G bass pedal... root and 7th can stay the same while the 3rd and 5th move in half steps)
    Wow !
    I just did the Gdimmaj7 alternating to Gmaj7 and it sounds very ' inside' and not necessarily Jazz - could be used in a James Taylor type tune almost.

    Has a very contemporary sound to my ears but I remember reading that Gershwin favored this Chord.

    Anyway I voiced it as a big 6 note piano chord ( on the Guitar ) a very nice compositional Device there !

    Also great for Blues in same way.
    Nice- thanks Jordan.

    I used the same voicing and it resolves really nicely to a G 13 and moved up a minor 3rd resolves to a G9 with B on the low string creating a little turnaround.

    The major 7th gives it more color than a straight diminished and voiced properly can be 'prettier' sounding than it looks on paper.
    I have it voiced with a perfect fourth on the top strings from the C# to F#.
    We ( I ) need to pick your Brain for more of these !
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 03-03-2017 at 09:02 PM.

  35. #34

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa
    Wow !
    I just did the Gdimmaj7 alternating to Gmaj7 and it sounds very ' inside' and not necessarily Jazz - could be used in a James Taylor type tune almost.

    Has a very contemporary sound to my ears but I remember reading that Gershwin favored this Chord.

    Anyway I voiced it as a big 6 note piano chord ( on the Guitar ) a very nice compositional Device there !

    Also great for Blues in same way.
    Nice- thanks Jordan.

    I used the same voicing and it resolves really nicely to a G 13 and moved up a minor 3rd resolves to a G9 with B on the low string creating a little turnaround.

    The major 7th gives it more color than a straight diminished and voiced properly can be 'prettier' sounding than it looks on paper.
    I have it voiced with a perfect fourth on the top strings from the C# to F#.
    We ( I ) need to pick your Brain for more of these !
    Yeah, it's a cool way to use it. And really, it doesn't even have to be the dimMaj7. It can just be any diminished chord resolving to the next chord on the same root note. Not only is it great for subbing in (like I think I mentioned in my older post regarding a tune like I'll Remember April where we have 8 bars of modal vamped out stagnant G) but it's actually written into tunes as well... there's a Jobim tune that I can hear but can't think of the name now. Where it uses Fdim7 to resolve to FMaj7. Or something like that. Is that ringing a bell for anyone? I can't think of the name. It's a relatively quick use of it.

    Then there's a tune like Upper Manhattan Medical Group where it's got several bars of it at the end of the form. And some people extend the form the make it last longer... and some people (like in the video below) actually just use it as an intro vamp. Again, not the dimMaj7... just a regular dim7. If we're following the melody and naming based on what's going on melodically it would be like a Dbdim7b13 to a Db6 chord. You could try improvising over it starting with an A major triad moving to a Bbminor triad. That would sort of follow the melodic arch over that section... but at the end of the day, it's just Db diminished to Db major.

    Great sound.


  36. #35

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by jordanklemons
    Yeah, it's a cool way to use it. And really, it doesn't even have to be the dimMaj7. It can just be any diminished chord resolving to the next chord on the same root note. Not only is it great for subbing in (like I think I mentioned in my older post regarding a tune like I'll Remember April where we have 8 bars of modal vamped out stagnant G) but it's actually written into tunes as well... there's a Jobim tune that I can hear but can't think of the name now. Where it uses Fdim7 to resolve to FMaj7. Or something like that. Is that ringing a bell for anyone? I can't think of the name. It's a relatively quick use of it.
    Corcovado

    This is pretty old school as far as subs go. I mean 1930s old school. And once the sub is made, you can do stupid modern stuff to it involving the half whole scale.

  37. #36

    User Info Menu

    Barry Harris uses it as the first chord of Stella by Starlight in that YouTube video.

    On guitar it would be something like this:

    Bb dim (maj7) xx8655

    Cm9 (F bass) 1x1331

    F13b9 1x4231

    Fm9 1x1113

    Bb13b9 x56433
    Last edited by grahambop; 03-04-2017 at 08:01 AM.

  38. #37

    User Info Menu

    I'd never thought about it theoretically much before, but now that it's been explained in this thread, I have learned that I use the sound occasionally.

    If you have a long passage of Gmaj and you drop the major triad a half step for a moment while the bassist continues to pedal a G, suddenly, there's a Gdimmaj7 in the air.

    I see it occasionally, probably more often in Jobim arrangements than elsewhere. I have always thought of it as a dim chord with an extra bit of coloration. But, this thread has me thinking about it some. Appreciated.

  39. #38

    User Info Menu

    Well here's a thing... Elsewhere we have a debate regarding Wes's use of a B triad on a G7 chord going into C.... It's this resolution.

    It's pretty old fashioned in a weird sort of way as I say... Barry Harris describes it as the b7 sub of the tritone sub dominant... So b7 sub of Db7 for instance, going into C major.

    Also see Naima...

  40. #39

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Corcovado
    Thank you! That was annoying the hell out of me last night! haha

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    This is pretty old school as far as subs go. I mean 1930s old school. And once the sub is made, you can do stupid modern stuff to it involving the half whole scale.
    What was the standard protocol for that diminished chord prior to the 'stupid modern stuff'?

  41. #40

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Barry Harris uses it as the first chord of Stella by Starlight in that YouTube video.

    On guitar it would be something like this:

    Bb dim (maj7) xx8655

    Cm9 (F bass) 1x1331

    F13b9 1x4231

    Fm9 1x1113

    Bb13b9 x56433
    Nice... thanks for sharing these. I have a different approach to music from the BH model, but I tend to gravitate around a lot of similar ideas and voicings as these for this tune. Nice to be reminded how the end product can often be similar regardless of the path taken.

  42. #41

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I'd never thought about it theoretically much before, but now that it's been explained in this thread, I have learned that I use the sound occasionally.

    If you have a long passage of Gmaj and you drop the major triad a half step for a moment while the bassist continues to pedal a G, suddenly, there's a Gdimmaj7 in the air.

    I see it occasionally, probably more often in Jobim arrangements than elsewhere. I have always thought of it as a dim chord with an extra bit of coloration. But, this thread has me thinking about it some. Appreciated.
    Yeah, I don't hear it get talked about as often as the tradition V to I cadence... but it's a pretty in sound that's been used for a long time... I'm pretty sure I've noticed it in classical pieces even... though I've never jotted down specific examples to remember... but I'm quite sure it's there. Christian may be able to give specific pieces to check out for that.

    One of my favorite things to do with this is to take it one step further. Rather than just pedal the root note, G for example, and move the triad from the F# up a half step to the G... sometimes I like to pedal the entire GMaj chord and stack the F# triad on top of the full harmony resolving up to the G triad. It's a little bit more complex in that now it's SORT OF that dimMaj7 chord... except that it has the major 3rd in it still. So I actually think of that as a Maj7 chord with a #11 (instead of the dim 5) and a #9 (instead of the minor 3). It offers a very similar cadential resolution, but gives a little more complexity to the tension chord, at least in my ear.

    GMaj7#11#9
    324322

    And then also, we can alter the GMaj resolution chord and think about it as a B minor triad
    GMaj7
    GBDF

    3x4322
    3x4432

    Which means now we can melodically and harmonically mess around with an F# triad moving to a B minor triad (V -> i). Or another cool one could be a GMaj9 resolution which we could create by using a D major triad
    GMaj9
    GBDF#A

    3x4322
    3x4232

    This would then allow us to move from the F# major triad to D major triad (I -> bVI) and creates some really great movement for improv and comping.

  43. #42

    User Info Menu

    Jordan..

    working with basic triads in this kind of setting has a 'Bach" feel harmonically/melodically .. using arps and melodic patterns in F#maj Dmaj to Gmaj...the chord structures expand with open voicings..anticipations and inversions..Howard Roberts/Ted Greene flavors emerge with some inner voice movement in some of the variations of this kind of stuff

    thanks for opening rarely used doors


    I just listened to "The City" .. hot stuff...is Oliver Nelson an influence ??
    Last edited by wolflen; 03-04-2017 at 06:31 PM.

  44. #43

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by wolflen
    Jordan..

    working with basic triads in this kind of setting has a 'Bach" feel harmonically/melodically .. using arps and melodic patterns in F#maj Dmaj to Gmaj...the chord structures expand with open voicings..anticipations and inversions..Howard Roberts/Ted Greene flavors emerge with some inner voice movement in some of the variations of this kind of stuff

    thanks for opening rarely used doors
    I love these doors man. They really open up so much. For me it's sort of that idea that the complexity and advanced stuff isn't found by expanding beyond the simple stuff, it's truly just an application of the simple fundamentals into new territory. It's sort of all the same stuff for me. And yeah you're absolutely right, it goes back at least as far as Bach. I don't see anything I'm doing as any different from what he did (besides being worse hahahaha). And the simplicity really does offer a lot of really incredible benefits that I personally struggled for decades to master prior to just giving in and going with the basics instead. And then, they're just sort of sitting there like they were waiting for me the whole time. Glad you dig them as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolflen
    I just listened to "The City" .. hot stuff...
    Thanks so much man... Really appreciate it

    Quote Originally Posted by wolflen
    is Oliver Nelson an influence ??
    I've looked at and studied a couple of his arrangements, but I wouldn't really say that he's necessarily a direct influence for me. As far as arranging goes, my 'aesthetic' (musical) influences mostly come from classical music really (and Gil Evans and Maria Schneider.. of course). I get very overwhelmed by great classical orchestration within symphonies and the emotions they can stir up with me. I'm, in a general sense, usually attempting to create hyper-emotional music... cinematic, storytelling, etc. There's usually (but not always) a lot of theory and intellectual stuff at work in my arrangements that could be dissected, but ultimately, I'd prefer that everybody be so distracted by the emotional side of things that they don't notice that unless they're actively looking for it.

    More directly, and in jazz terms, my direct influences are probably Alan Ferber and Stefon Harris... as I studied with both of them. But ultimately, it's really just an application of the types of things being discussed on this thread into a group setting. Like taking the triadic ideas here and spreading them out through a horn section sitting on top of whatever the rhythm section might be doing. Sort of harmonizing any given melody note with some type of triad and then breaking it down into individual lines that a trumpet or sax can play, and then letting them all intertwine together. There's other things at work in my arranging for sure, but that's probably about 80% of it.

    Really appreciate you checking it out and glad you dig it! Thanks again.

  45. #44

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by jordanklemons
    Thank you! That was annoying the hell out of me last night! haha


    What was the standard protocol for that diminished chord prior to the 'stupid modern stuff'?
    Voice leading bruv, the way most of these things start off. The augmented sixth was just voice leading until Schubert started to use it as an enharmonic sub for a dom7 and started shimmying seductively into distant keys like the absolute perv he undoubtedly was.

    Anyway *ahem*

    Yeah, the dim7's fall into two main categories functionally:

    1) leading tone diminished - i.e. 7b9's without the bass notes - these tend to take the harmonic minor in common practice harmony, for example:

    C C#o7 | Dm7 G7

    Which is the kind of the same as

    C A7b9 | Dm7 G7

    with a different bassline

    2) common tone diminished - the interesting ones. Non dominant/leading tone in function. Essentially bridging chords.

    F F#o7 | C/G
    Dm7 G7 | Co7 C
    C Co7 | Dm7 G7
    C/E Ebo7 | Dm7 G7
    C C#o7 | Dm7 D#o7 | C/E (both types of dim 7)

    Typical movements used to dress up simpler changes... This stride piano cliche is standard:

    C Dm7 D#o7 C/E

    The major seventh etc on a dim7 chord is originally the product of a melodic suspension or appoggiatura, one that jumps out at me is the turnaround on Basin Street Blues:

    'You'll never know how nice it seems
    Or just how much it really means'

    Once again, diatonic melody, chromatic harmony.

    The idea of fitting a scale over the chord to express a sound came later, but to me the whole-half scale fits best in this functional context.

    Much of Jobim's harmony is derived from this kind of stuff common not only in American music but also in Brazilian Choro repertoire. Think Chopin etc.

    That's what we have an awful lot in swing harmony. In fact bop rejects a lot of these dim7 chords in favour of sidestep ii-V's or secondary dominants where the melody fits. First inversion I chord normally replaced with iiim7, etc.

    Ironically Barry Harris has a good rant about 'why does no one play biiio7 any more?'

    F F#o7 | C/G --> F F#ø7 B7b9 | Em
    Dm7 G7 | Co7 C --> Usually Co7 removed
    C/E Ebo7 | Dm7 G7 --> Em7 A7 Ebm7 Ab7 | Dm7 G7
    C C#o7 | Dm7 D#o7 | C/E --> C Eø7 A7b9 | Dm7 F#ø7 B7b9 | Em7

  46. #45

    User Info Menu

    Christian- when I was young I was trying to learn to smoothly modulate from anywhere to anywhere and I remember the Walter Piston 'Harmony' book which
    sucks for Modulation IMO.

    I do remember 'non dominant diminished 7th Chords'
    and Travis Picking them on Guitar they sounded like
    Ragtime Piano .

    Are augmented sixth chords the Classical equivalent
    of Tritone Substitutions in Jazz ?

    Are the 'Distant Modulations' you referred to using the Augmented 6th Chords using them ambiguously
    resolving a half step down where the original chord
    was V7 and now it resolves like Aug6 ( or Tritone Sub) chromatically?

    And do the French, Italian Augmented 6th Chords resolve differently ?

    I never got those too well and it seemed like the Pivot Chord Concept of Modulation explains it well ( and I like the Roman Numeral Functions for chords- I 'hear' progressions better that way ) but Piston never explained Distant Modulations well at all and the Pivot Chord and needing to be a common progression in both Keys kind of leads one into only going to Closely Related Keys...and I remember he did not think the original V7 a good Pivot cause it was too strong a function in the original Key !
    So I think his ' Modulation ' Concept was a trap for a Novice ....lol .

    So now I just use a Target Key or even a Target Voicing and then figure out how to get there sometimes common tones and stepwise motion or just ' go there' and have a strong New Key Cadence...

    Or just use the Chordal Region Concept not necessarily a whole Key...just moving from a Chordal Region to another Chordal Region ...Tension Release etc. and some motion towards the new Region .

    Seems like Classical Theory for me simplifies some things but masks other things....
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 03-05-2017 at 11:06 AM.

  47. #46

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa
    Christian- when I was young I was trying to learn to smoothly modulate from anywhere to anywhere and I remember the Walter Piston 'Harmony' book which
    sucks for Modulation IMO.

    I do remember 'non dominant diminished 7th Chords'
    and Travis Picking them on Guitar they sounded like
    Ragtime Piano .

    Are augmented sixth chords the Classical equivalent
    of Tritone Substitutions in Jazz ?
    Not always. Augmented sixths (the interval) are traditionally prepared and resolve like so:

    E-->F#-->G
    A-->Ab-->G

    Now here's the thing - that G interval could be part of a G7 chord, as in the classic pre-dominant chord in a minor key (18th century harmony and also, not a few jazz standards)

    Ab7 G7 Cm

    So far looks like a tritone right? EXCEPT - 1) it's the default choice in minor key 18th century harmony (more common than D7 in that key AFAIK) so not really a substitute of anything, and 2) well, this:

    It could equally function as a direct resolution to Cm, probably in second inversion, cos doubled fifths are VERBOTEN:

    Ab7#11 Cm/G

    This of course can be used as a borrowed chord via major/minor modal interchange:

    Ab7#11 C - we see this A LOT. I mean really A LOT. If you haven't seen this move a million times in all the keys you need to go learn you some jazz standards buddy.

    This is not in any sense a V7-I relationship, tritone subbed or otherwise. It is closely related to the common tone diminished in fact. Ab7#11 is a cool sub for F#o7 in this context that amalgamates the two main line cliches that define I-IV-I movement in old school jazz, blues and Motown and so on, i.e.

    C-E-F-F#-G (From C C7 F F#o7 C)
    C-Bb-A-Ab-G (from C C7 F Fm C)

    Lookee here! It's an AUGMENTED SIXTH as the penultimate interval. OMG I just wet myself.

    Bet your sorry you got me started, amirite?

    Are the 'Distant Modulations' you referred to using the Augmented 6th Chords using them ambiguously
    resolving a half step down where the original chord
    was V7 and now it resolves like Aug6 ( or Tritone Sub) chromatically?
    Indeed! Hours of fun.

    And do the French, Italian Augmented 6th Chords resolve differently ?
    No, at least I don't think so. The French sixth is really really common in pre war jazz BTW. Ab7#11 in the key of C or C minor. Modern theorists will blather on about lydian dominants, but that's what they were thinking (most likely back then.)

    Out of Nowhere, right?

    The advantage of the chromatic dom7 #11 chord in general as we might call it in jazz land (or it's utility should I say) is it takes a diatonic melody note...

    Ab7#11 harmonises D
    Bb7#11 harmonises E
    etc

    I never got those too well and it seemed like the Pivot Chord Concept of Modulation explains it well ( and I like the Roman Numeral Functions for chords- I 'hear' progressions better that way ) but Piston never explained Distant Modulations well at all and the Pivot Chord and needing to be a common progression in both Keys kind of leads one into only going to Closely Related Keys...and I remember he did not think the original V7 a good Pivot cause it was too strong a function in the original Key !
    So I think his ' Modulation ' Concept was a trap for a Novice ....lol .

    So now I just use a Target Key or even a Target Voicing and then figure out how to get there sometimes common tones and stepwise motion or just ' go there' and have a strong New Key Cadence...

    Or just use the Chordal Region Concept not necessarily a whole Key...just moving from a Chordal Region to another Chordal Region ...Tension Release etc. and some motion towards the new Region .

    Seems like Classical Theory for me simplifies some things but masks other things....
    Yeah. Classical theory is very good for understanding the structure of standards. The people who wrote these tunes by and large where thinking in terms of classical harmony.

    It bothers me when people talk about melodic minor modes or extensions when talking about the composition of standards. I don't think they knew what that stuff was. Take a nice, largely diatonic melody, and dress it up with some nice voice leading.
    Last edited by christianm77; 03-05-2017 at 05:38 PM.

  48. #47

    User Info Menu

    The singer on yesterday's gig called Unforgettable. That tune opens with a written major to parallel diminished major 7th change (unlike I'll Remember April and countless others where it's used as a sub).

  49. #48

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    The singer on yesterday's gig called Unforgettable. That tune opens with a written major to parallel diminished major 7th change (unlike I'll Remember April and countless others where it's used as a sub).
    But what chord follows the dim(maj7)? That's what determines how it's functioning - i.e., which of the three possible kinds it is.*
    A major 7th is a possible extension on all kinds of dim7.

    (*If you accept either the chord before or the chord after as defining the dim7's function, then there are only the two kinds christian described. In fact, maybe only one....)

  50. #49

    User Info Menu

    Thanks very much Christian!Not sorry I asked lol.I need to wade through this and take a good look and play a few examples.And I really need to get it clear because of the Resolutions .I use and like the Major 7 #11 a lot and also the slightly darker Major 7 flat5 .I only call a Maj 7# 11 if theres a perfect 5th also because they can be different under a Vocal .Now I will be writing or am writing Instrumental R&B .I want to review the Augmented Sixth Chords to free my mind more...lol.And use those Resolutions possibly.I was immediately able to plug in the Diminished Major 7th into Blues and as a nice Tension Chord alternating with the ' pretty sounding' Maj7 Maj9 chords as Jordan Klemons suggested to spice it up so it's good stuff.I saw your Youtube Video by the way and you speak very well....an Advanced Theory Series especially if you can get paid somehow might be well received.

    JonR- yes I am familiar with identifying a function of an ambiguous chord by it's Resolution...When writing ...chords with multiple resolutions- especially ones that don't sound like a fire alarm are really useful because they can help lead to a Bridge or another Section or Chordal Region or Key etc. and I need all the help I can get .Music is competitive IMO if you try to make money with it .

    I even coined the term " Tertiary °vii Chords because you can use them as a ' secondary °vii chord - but a
    ' Tertiary ° vii chord can Resolve Chromatically upward to the 3rd , 5th , 7th or 9th of the 'Target ' Chord - it usually works too..but there are probably other ways to Analyze it. It is a little too raw and obvious sometimes to my ears the Diminished 7th I mean.

    Not sure about multiple resolutions of Dim major 7 yet.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 03-06-2017 at 01:11 PM.

  51. #50

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by JonR
    But what chord follows the dim(maj7)? That's what determines how it's functioning - i.e., which of the three possible kinds it is.*
    A major 7th is a possible extension on all kinds of dim7.

    (*If you accept either the chord before or the chord after as defining the dim7's function, then there are only the two kinds christian described. In fact, maybe only one....)
    It goes to the IV chord but doesn't have a dominant function (the progression is Gmaj7 | % | Gdimmaj7 | % | C and the melody states the major 7th at the diminished change). We played it by ear but I know some charts have a biii dim there (a la the opening to Embraceable You or penultimate bars of Out of Nowhere). I've even come across C#- | F#7 | at that point.