Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Posts 1 to 25 of 69
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    Can anyone explain me the use of this chord? It sounds as if it is a kind of tonic with tension. One can play it with drop 3 and drop 2s. Anyone know a lot about this chord function and maybe about its voicings? The note is contained in the diminished scale, but the chord sounds far from dominant, but who knows?
    Last edited by yaclaus; 10-14-2016 at 04:44 PM.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    Lots of uses... some things I like it for

    -Subbed in for a regular diminished chord
    -Subbed in for a dominant 7 chord (built from the b7 gives a 13b9, built from the 3rd gives a 7#9)
    -Subbed in to create tension and movement when there's a tonic major chord held for long periods of time. Like first few bars of Remember April... going back and forth between GdimMaj7 and GMaj creates some cool movement (F# - G over a G bass pedal... root and 7th can stay the same while the 3rd and 5th move in half steps)

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by yaclaus
    Can anyone explain me the use of this chord? It sounds as if it is a kind of tonic with tension. One can play it with drop 3 and drop 2s. Anyone know a lot about this chord function and maybe about its voicings? The note is contained in the diminished scale, but the chord sounds far from dominant, but who knows?
    diminished chord doesnt have a dominant function. if its usage known in applied dominant category, the "function" you hear is like modulating to another key -- to give you a perception of changing region. so it sounds like it has a dominant function. but the actual usage of diminished chord is for embellishing.

    7th chord is another topic. its an extension chord. meaning the triad is built upon extension tone that is not part of the harmonic tone, a.k.a non harmonic tone. and you can add a chromatic non harmonic tone for that matter. in this case, dimM7th is a dim triad with chromatic non harmonic tone attached. but where does it come from?

    u've mentioned before that its contained in diminished scale or should i say octatonic scale. truth is, that scale is not part of tonal harmonic system. i think the earliest composition using that scale is in the early 20th century atonal music. but in the context of tonal music, imo, people use it for outside playing.

    sure u can say thats from diminished scale. but i prefer to say thats coming from the technique of mixture (which scale must be part of the system) or voice leading motion like in the neapolitan 6th chord.

    hope that helps.

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    With a Cdmimaj7 you have C-Eb-Gb-B which form a Bmaj triad with a b9 on the bass. It has a different, more ambiguous sound then the regular dim/dominant sound.


    ---------------
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpG...ehpkEjhFsr-FZQ

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    When I first saw the title to the thread I was like "wtf is a dim maj 7??". After playing around with it I realize I have been using that chord quite a bit, but thinking of it as a dom7#9 or a major b9 or dom7b9. So yeah, there are lots of uses for it. And i'm not sure what the hell EJ is talking about above, but both dim7 and half-dim7 chords are in fact used in place of the dominant. I even remember back in college music theory class we were instructed to analyze the vii chord as a V chord since usually that is how it is used in classical music.

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by yaclaus
    Can anyone explain me the use of this chord? It sounds as if it is a kind of tonic with tension. One can play it with drop 3 and drop 2s. Anyone know a lot about this chord function and maybe about its voicings? The note is contained in the diminished scale, but the chord sounds far from dominant, but who knows?
    Assuming you mean a diminished triad with a major 7th - eg C Eb Gb B - I agree that's an interesting chord with an ambiguous function.

    If you mean a full dim7 with a maj7 added, that's a inverted 7b9 chord, with a clear dominant function.

    The reason C Eb Gb B is ambiguous is it lacks the A that would reveal it as an inverted B7b9, or simply D#dim7 with a b13 extension. Probably resolving to Em or Emaj.

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    I use that voicing as a rootless 13b9 chord. So you C Eb G B example is a D13b9

    Edit: I should read whole posts instead of last replies
    Last edited by mr. beaumont; 10-16-2016 at 03:06 PM.

  9. #8
    This chord crops up a lot in diminished harmonies and plays nice with quartal voicings as well.

    1. It spells a b913. Pretty straightforward.

    2. Tonic major sub. Sometimes, but not my go-to application. Use this one sparingly. I suppose in a more "modern" context you can do this all day long.

    3. Used to harmonize a diminished scale. Play a #9 on the root note, then a dim/maj7 on the b9. Alternate between these two chords as you go up the scale and you get a harmonized octotonic scale. For example: G#9, Ab dim/maj7, Bb#9, B dim/maj7, Db#9, D dim/maj7, and so on. In this context, you can think of this chord as a b9 in 5th inversion. You would never play it that way. Typically it would be treated as voice leading.

    4. Spells a rootless #9 in first inversion. From the 3rd you also get the 7th, #9, and the 5th. Very cool.

    5. It shows up in the "Barry Harris/dim6/harmonized bebop scale." (Too many names for this pedagogical crutch). In this case it is the 4th and flat 6th chord of the scale. It really is functioning as an embellishment for voice leading. Very handy for harmonizing major lines where the #5 goes down to the 5th. From the root, you get F, B, E, and Ab. These would move down to a pleasant Em11 quartal voicing: from root, E, A, D, G. Very satisfying. This dim/maj7 can also go up to a G11. This chord scale arrangement is arrived at by startin on a Imaj7 block chord and moving up the scale, minding every Ab along the way up or down. For instance: I maj7, ii7b5, iii11, iv dim/maj7, V11, bvi dim/maj7, vi min/maj7, vii7b5.

    From the last example I really start relating this chord to #9s and quartal voicings. These are all ambiguous structures. Try harmonizing the melodic minor with an added b6 as the additional passing tone. The dim maj 7 pops up a couple times with some cool quartal voicings that are adjacent. These voicings and they're respective voice leading allow you to really spice up your comping.

    Also, in terms of voice leading, there are so many adjacent voicings surrounding this chord. By moving one note, you can get maj7#11, min7b5, 13, dim7, 11, min/maj7, etc.

  10. #9
    Wow, impressive first post indeed! Thanks a lot.

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarzen
    When I first saw the title to the thread I was like "wtf is a dim maj 7??". After playing around with it I realize I have been using that chord quite a bit, but thinking of it as a dom7#9 or a major b9 or dom7b9. So yeah, there are lots of uses for it. And i'm not sure what the hell EJ is talking about above, but both dim7 and half-dim7 chords are in fact used in place of the dominant. I even remember back in college music theory class we were instructed to analyze the vii chord as a V chord since usually that is how it is used in classical music.
    Sure u can base on your theoretical background. But I'm not into all verticality harmonic analysis. It's more of the motion towards the function I V I or tonic dominant tonic. And everything in between is a prolongation. So in my case its not about the question of dim function. It's rather how to prolong the function with diminished chord. And what I mean by dim is not just VII or leading tone chord. It could be in any degree without changing its "function" to prolong.

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by EJGuitar
    Sure u can base on your theoretical background. But I'm not into all verticality harmonic analysis. It's more of the motion towards the function I V I or tonic dominant tonic. And everything in between is a prolongation. So in my case its not about the question of dim function. It's rather how to prolong the function with diminished chord. And what I mean by dim is not just VII or leading tone chord. It could be in any degree without changing its "function" to prolong.
    We call that "word salad".

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarzen
    We call that "word salad".
    It's very obvious that your college taught you a rigid and narrow music theory back then.

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by EJGuitar
    It's very obvious that your college taught you a rigid and narrow music theory back then.
    No, it's just that you make no sense whatsoever. To my knowledge there is no such thing as "rigid and narrow music theory". Music theory is simply information. People can certainly be narrow or rigid in their thinking, which I am not. I simply cannot understand what the hell you are talking about. It just sounds like your tossing random words together, that as far as I can tell have no clear meaning. And I have a degree in this stuff. So if I can't understand you, I don't know how anyone else would be able to.

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    Well I understand what EJ Guitar is saying.

    A lot of chords are the product of melody note + bass line + inner voice leading rather than some kind of vertical block chord concept. In classic Western harmony the interplay between the vertical (chordal) and horizontal (melodic) elements is subtle and carefully managed so that both elements can be strong and yet also work together. That's what classical harmony is really.

    In older songs the melody note was harmonised after it was written and the composer might have added in some extra spiffy chromatic movement to spruce things up from the regular diatonic stuff.

    They were thinking of alterations to the prevailing key to create more interesting voice leading and as EJ says this would set up dissonances or prolongations that would lead to more stable sonorities through the use of classic embellishments like suspensions, apoggiaturas and so on.

    This is how Bach and all that lot operated. (That's why it's hard to write a jazz style chord chart even for something harmonically simple like Purcell arias - there's so much embellishment.) By the 20th century harmony had got pretty chromatic with the influence of the late Romantics - even in popular song. The original charts often get boiled down to simpler chords which allow jazz musicians to improvise freely on them. In fact, most experienced jazz musicians have this boiling down ability available on the fly.

    If you dig around in the older repertoire you see a lot of this stuff going on. Having, for example a D melody note on an Ebo7 chord, for example (although a B would be more customary, which would be a Co7(maj7) in fact.)

    These chords often pop up in Gypsy Jazz charts where they are confusingly written as 13b9 chords which also messes up the bass player. So we have G13b9 instead of what should be written - Abo7(#5)

    (Gypsy Jazz harmony is a f**king mess though, to be fair ;-))

    Django writes in Manoir de mes Reves, for example an F# melody on a Bbo7 chord which while technically is a Bbo7(#5) chord does invert to our dim7(maj7) structure, Go7(maj7) in this case.

    These days melody and background harmony is combined into a vertical system in which everything is built from chords. So if you see one of these in a modern chart it's probably some sort of diminished scale thing because that's what people learn at jazz school.
    Last edited by christianm77; 10-19-2016 at 05:33 AM.

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    EJ Guitar is using terms from Schenkerian analysis.

    Steve Larson did a lot of work looking at jazz through that lens. It's a different way to look at things, although honestly not one that particularly excites me. But other people have found it very helpful.

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    Okay - what I like here is that you use vertical and horizontal to refer to chords and melodies. As a flutist, a big part of my problem is that I am learning all melody lines - reading sheet music - it's all horizontal. So here I am trying to learn to improvise and I quickly find out that it's all built on vertical thinking - the chord and even the scale is a vertical framework if you think about it. I never saw it like that.

    So my challenge is that integration. One teacher told me (like 10 years ago) how to improvise. "Just outline the chords," he said. I did play some guitar a long time ago, learned ten or so chords and a bunch of country songs. So at least I understood the idea.

    Thanks ChristianM and all here, because these comments help me get closer to putting it all together. I need to get more vertical! Hahaha.
    Mike

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Well I understand what EJ Guitar is saying.

    A lot of chords are the product of melody note + bass line + inner voice leading rather than some kind of vertical block chord concept. In classic Western harmony the interplay between the vertical (chordal) and horizontal (melodic) elements is subtle and carefully managed so that both elements can be strong and yet also work together. That's what classical harmony is really.

    In older songs the melody note was harmonised after it was written and the composer might have added in some extra spiffy chromatic movement to spruce things up from the regular diatonic stuff.

    They were thinking of alterations to the prevailing key to create more interesting voice leading and as EJ says this would set up dissonances or prolongations that would lead to more stable sonorities through the use of classic embellishments like suspensions, apoggiaturas and so on.

    This is how Bach and all that lot operated. (That's why it's hard to write a jazz style chord chart even for something harmonically simple like Purcell arias - there's so much embellishment.) By the 20th century harmony had got pretty chromatic with the influence of the late Romantics - even in popular song. The original charts often get boiled down to simpler chords which allow jazz musicians to improvise freely on them. In fact, most experienced jazz musicians have this boiling down ability available on the fly.

    If you dig around in the older repertoire you see a lot of this stuff going on. Having, for example a D melody note on an Ebo7 chord, for example (although a B would be more customary, which would be a Co7(maj7) in fact.)

    These chords often pop up in Gypsy Jazz charts where they are confusingly written as 13b9 chords which also messes up the bass player. So we have G13b9 instead of what should be written - Abo7(#5)

    (Gypsy Jazz harmony is a f**king mess though, to be fair ;-))

    Django writes in Manoir de mes Reves, for example an F# melody on a Bbo7 chord which while technically is a Bbo7(#5) chord does invert to our dim7(maj7) structure, Go7(maj7) in this case.

    These days melody and background harmony is combined into a vertical system in which everything is built from chords. So if you see one of these in a modern chart it's probably some sort of diminished scale thing because that's what people learn at jazz school.

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    Main usage:

    "Subbed in to create tension and movement when there's a tonic major chord held for long periods of time. Like first few bars of Remember April... going back and forth between GdimMaj7 and GMaj creates some cool movement (F# - G over a G bass pedal... root and 7th can stay the same while the 3rd and 5th move in half steps)"

    ... extremely useful effect in ballads for embellishing the tonic...Stella, Misty, etc
    ... sort of reminds me of chro
    matic blues 3rds


    Last edited by rintincop; 10-20-2016 at 02:02 PM.

  19. #18

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    Main usage:

    "Subbed in to create tension and movement when there's a tonic major chord held for long periods of time. Like first few bars of Remember April... going back and forth between GdimMaj7 and GMaj creates some cool movement (F# - G over a G bass pedal... root and 7th can stay the same while the 3rd and 5th move in half steps)"

    ... extremely useful effect in ballads for embellishing the tonic...Stella, Misty, etc
    ... sort of reminds me of chro
    matic blues 3rds


    Man, who's this dummy you're quoting from here rintin? haha

    Yes. Great in ballads. Someone was just hitting me up asking me questions about this video I posted forever ago with a solo rendition of Misty and had me watching it again and helping him analyze a couple things in it... including this exact chord in question and it's use... the dimMaj7 chord built on the tonic resolving to the tonic Maj7 chord (technically Maj9). It happens coming out of the bridge, resolving from the dominant chord (Bb13b9) to the EbdimMaj7 and THEN resolving to the EbMaj9. Around 2:05 into the video.


    Also... while great in ballads, still fantastic for mid and uptempo tunes. But a listening example either way seems like a good idea amidst all the theory talk.

  20. #19

    User Info Menu

    (Wrong post - ignore)
    Last edited by blille; 10-20-2016 at 08:13 PM. Reason: (Wrong reference sorry)

  21. #20

    User Info Menu

    CoM7

    This is one of those chords that doesn't actually mean anything. I mean, you can always chuck it in if you want a weird sound.

    The danger is thinking of it as another chord altogether just because it contains the same notes. By that reasoning any group of notes can be anything you want to call it. Technically, for example, x3444x is a CoM7 but you can call it a D7 and resolve it to GM7...

    But it's not a D7, it's a CoM7. So what use has it as a CoM7 ? Don't ask me
    Last edited by ragman1; 11-21-2016 at 08:56 AM.

  22. #21

    User Info Menu

    That's what they used to say about dominant seventh once

  23. #22

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    CoM7

    This is one of those chords that doesn't actually mean anything.
    So what use has it as a CoM7 ? Don't ask me

    It has great use as a dramatic effect when hanging out and embellishing on a tonic chord in a ballad !

  24. #23

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I use that voicing as a rootless 13b9 chord. So you C Eb G B example is a D13b9
    You mean C Eb Gb B, of course ...

    But yes, a rootless D13b9, I didn't notice that (I knew it had to be a partial dom7 of some kind, but didn't manage to think that far).

  25. #24

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by JonR
    You mean C Eb Gb B, of course ...

    But yes, a rootless D13b9, I didn't notice that (I knew it had to be a partial dom7 of some kind, but didn't manage to think that far).
    But that's my point, it's not a D7 chord, it's a C major chord!

  26. #25

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    It has great use as a dramatic effect when hanging out and embellishing on a tonic chord in a ballad !
    Well, I agree it sounds like it ought to resolve, probably to CM7.

    (edit) I've just noticed Jordan Klemons does just that - see his post & vid above.

    I might also use it as a sort of 'final strum' chord, just to be jazzy
    Last edited by ragman1; 10-22-2016 at 06:05 PM.