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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    It goes to the IV chord but doesn't have a dominant function (the progression is Gmaj7 | % | Gdimmaj7 | % | C and the melody states the major 7th at the diminished change). We played it by ear but I know some charts have a biii dim there (a la the opening to Embraceable You or penultimate bars of Out of Nowhere). I've even come across C#- | F#7 | at that point.
    bIIIdim is the same chord as Idim, and in relation to IV would be a chromatic passing dim7 (one note descending by half-step to the root of IV).
    That also applies in the more common scenario of passing to the ii chord.
    So Gmaj7 - Bbdim7 - Am7 - D7 is a classic sequence (as in a Real Book chart for this song), and Gdim(maj7) and C are only re-voicings of Bbdim7 and Am7. The maj7 (F#) on the Gdim is just a nice additional touch - echoing the melody as you say. (Does the Gdimmaj7 also have an E, or is that omitted?)

    (I guess you could also argue Bbdim7/Gdim7 is a common-tone diminished relative to both G and Am7 or C, if it's not only the root of the following chord that can define the common tone. )
    Last edited by JonR; 03-07-2017 at 08:54 AM.

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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR
    bIIIdim is the same chord as Idim, and in relation to IV would be a chromatic passing dim7 (one note descending by half-step to the root of IV).
    That also applies in the more common scenario of passing to the ii chord.
    So Gmaj7 - Bbdim7 - Am7 - D7 is a classic sequence (as in a Real Book chart for this song), and Gdim(maj7) and C are only re-voicings of Bbdim7 and Am7. The maj7 (F#) on the Gdim is just a nice additional touch - echoing the melody as you say. (Does the Gdimmaj7 also have an E, or is that omitted?)

    (I guess you could also argue Bbdim7/Gdim7 is a common-tone diminished relative to both G and Am7 or C, if it's not only the root of the following chord that can define the common tone. )
    Indeed, Idim and biiidim are equivalent yet they still feel quite different to me and I like to retain the common root when playing that tune (whereas Gmaj7-Bbdim7-Am7 feels right for Embraceable You). Likewise, I prefer going to IV (C) rather than ii (Am) as the next chord is a II dominant (A7) followed by a Dm7 and the i-VI-ii movement is stronger. Pretty unique tune really in that it modulates up a 4th to C only to have the new II dominant (D7) become the V dominant back into the home key of G.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    Pretty unique tune really in that it modulates up a 4th to C only to have the new II dominant (D7) become the V dominant back into the home key of G.
    The move to C is not really a modulation, as the sequence doesn't spend enough time on C to confirm that as a new key centre. C is simply IV in G. There's not even any F natural around to suggest C as a new key.
    It's the move to C from Gdim7 which is unusual (more unusual than Gdim7 to Am7, which is quite traditional).
    I.e., normally a move to the IV chord would be via a secondary dominant (G7 in this case) or secondary leading tone chord (Bdim7); and sometimes in a deceptive cadence from V/iii (B7 in this case).
    None of those would fit this melody, however, which is probably why Gdim7 was chosen as the transitional chord - it already contains the E and G of the melody, while the F# between is added as the maj7.

    The other nice thing about choosing C rather than Am7 in that bar is that the melody is A - as I think you'd agree, that sounds much better on a C chord than on an Am. (Bass lines are also significant. You can of course retain the G in the bass - across all 3 chords - but two inversions of the G also work nicely: G/B - Bbdim7 - Am; or G/D - Dbdim7 - C6.)

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR
    The move to C is not really a modulation, as the sequence doesn't spend enough time on C to confirm that as a new key centre. C is simply IV in G. There's not even any F natural around to suggest C as a new key.
    It's the move to C from Gdim7 which is unusual (more unusual than Gdim7 to Am7, which is quite traditional).
    I.e., normally a move to the IV chord would be via a secondary dominant (G7 in this case) or secondary leading tone chord (Bdim7); and sometimes in a deceptive cadence from V/iii (B7 in this case).
    None of those would fit this melody, however, which is probably why Gdim7 was chosen as the transitional chord - it already contains the E and G of the melody, while the F# between is added as the maj7.

    The other nice thing about choosing C rather than Am7 in that bar is that the melody is A - as I think you'd agree, that sounds much better on a C chord than on an Am. (Bass lines are also significant. You can of course retain the G in the bass - across all 3 chords - but two inversions of the G also work nicely: G/B - Bbdim7 - Am; or G/D - Dbdim7 - C6.)
    Sorry, but the tune not only modulates to C, a case could be made that it's in the key of C with the opening bars and turnarounds acting as red herrings. The tune's final cadence is in C and while there's only one F in the melody (a passing tone), the F chord appears throughout. Incidentally, the only F#s are in the passages cited.

    The last eight bars, apart from the final turnaround, are all in C: | Fmaj7 (IV) | Bb7#11 (Fmmaj7) (ivm) | Cmaj7 (I) F7 (IV7) | Em7 (iii) A7 (VI#3) | D7 (II#3) | D-7 (ii) G7 (V) | C6 (I) | (Am7 D7) ||. Even that final Am7 sounds like a vi of C until the D7 swing us back to the key of G.

    By the way, even though I heard and was almost derailed by this modulation on a gig the other day, it seems I'm not the first to point out the tonal ambiguity of the tune. A quick Internet search will provide plenty of links.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    Sorry, but the tune not only modulates to C, a case could be made that it's in the key of C with the opening bars and turnarounds acting as red herrings. The tune's final cadence is in C and while there's only one F in the melody (a passing tone), the F chord appears throughout. Incidentally, the only F#s are in the passages cited.

    The last eight bars, apart from the final turnaround, are all in C: | Fmaj7 (IV) | Bb7#11 (Fmmaj7) (ivm) | Cmaj7 (I) F7 (IV7) | Em7 (iii) A7 (VI#3) | D7 (II#3) | D-7 (ii) G7 (V) | C6 (I) | (Am7 D7) ||. Even that final Am7 sounds like a vi of C until the D7 swing us back to the key of G.
    Sorry are these meant to be last 8 bars of Embraceable You? If so where are they from?

    (This song has a lot of variations. I don't think I've played these changes on this song.)

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    Sorry, but the tune not only modulates to C, a case could be made that it's in the key of C with the opening bars and turnarounds acting as red herrings.

    The tune's final cadence is in C and while there's only one F in the melody (a passing tone), the F chord appears throughout. Incidentally, the only F#s are in the passages cited.
    Sorry I though you were talking about the opening bars. I meant the C you were talking about in bar 3.
    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    The last eight bars, apart from the final turnaround, are all in C: | Fmaj7 (IV) | Bb7#11 (Fmmaj7) (ivm) | Cmaj7 (I) F7 (IV7) | Em7 (iii) A7 (VI#3) | D7 (II#3) | D-7 (ii) G7 (V) | C6 (I) | (Am7 D7) ||. Even that final Am7 sounds like a vi of C until the D7 swing us back to the key of G.

    By the way, even though I heard and was almost derailed by this modulation on a gig the other day, it seems I'm not the first to point out the tonal ambiguity of the tune. A quick Internet search will provide plenty of links.
    Your C section is in a different key from the sources I have (assuming the opening chord is G) - maybe it's a special arrangement? What's the source?

    The changes I have are as follows (from a mix of three sources, which all differ slightly here and there, but not on the key of the C section):
    [A]
    |G6 - |Bbo - |Am7 - |D7 - |
    |Am7 - |Cm6 - |Gmaj7 - |F#m7b5 A7 |
    [B]
    |Em Em/D |C#m7b5 F#7+ |Bm7 - |Em7 A7 |
    |Dmaj7 D#o |Em7 A7 |Am7 - |D7 - |
    [A]
    |G6 - |Bbo - |Am7 - |D7 - |
    |Am7 - |Cm6 - |Gmaj7 - |Dm7 G7 |
    [C]
    |Cmaj7 - |F#m7b5 B7b9 |Em Em(maj7) |C#m7b5 Cm6|
    |Bm7 E7 |Am7b5 D7b9 |G6 - |(Am7 D7)|

    Looks like key of G to me, overall (starting and finishing). There's a modulation to D in the B section and (yes) to C at the beginning of the C section; but it works its way back to G pretty conclusively, both times.

    (This is obviously a side issue regarding the topic . We were discussing the Bbdim being played as a Gdimmaj7 going to C instead of Am.)
    Last edited by JonR; 03-09-2017 at 11:30 AM.

  8. #57

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    Yup

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR
    Sorry I though you were talking about the opening bars. I meant the C you were talking about in bar 3.
    Your C section is in a different key from the sources I have (assuming the opening chord is G) - maybe it's a special arrangement? What's the source?

    The changes I have are as follows (from a mix of three sources, which all differ slightly here and there, but not on the key of the C section):
    [A]
    |G6 - |Bbo - |Am7 - |D7 - |
    |Am7 - |Cm6 - |Gmaj7 - |F#m7b5 A7 |
    [B]
    |Em Em/D |C#m7b5 F#7+ |Bm7 - |Em7 A7 |
    |Dmaj7 D#o |Em7 A7 |Am7 - |D7 - |
    [A]
    |G6 - |Bbo - |Am7 - |D7 - |
    |Am7 - |Cm6 - |Gmaj7 - |Dm7 G7 |
    [C]
    |Cmaj7 - |F#m7b5 B7b9 |Em Em(maj7) |C#m7b5 Cm6|
    |Bm7 E7 |Am7b5 D7b9 |G6 - |(Am7 D7)|

    Looks like key of G to me, overall (starting and finishing). There's a modulation to D in the B section and (yes) to C at the beginning of the C section; but it works its way back to G pretty conclusively, both times.

    (This is obviously a side issue regarding the topic . We were discussing the Bbdim being played as a Gdimmaj7 going to C instead of Am.)
    It all makes sense. Jon, they're the changes for Embraceable You not Unforgettable, the tune mentioned in my initial post. That definitely modulates to C as per the chords I outlined. We were probably both thinking, "what's wrong with this guy's ears"? Apologies everyone, do carry on!

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    It all makes sense. Jon, they're the changes for Embraceable You not Unforgettable, the tune mentioned in my initial post. That definitely modulates to C as per the chords I outlined. We were probably both thinking, "what's wrong with this guy's ears"? Apologies everyone, do carry on!
    Well, apologies from me too!

  11. #60

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    Using dimMaj7th over Dom7 is touched upon briefly in Garrison Fewell's Harmonic Approach book pg 84-85.

  12. #61

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    Anyplace you're using a dim chord you can play a dim triad with a major 7th, so you can use
    FdimMa7/G=G13b9, AbdimMa7/G=Gaddb9, BdimMa7/G=G7#9, DdimMa7/G=G7b9b5(no 3rd), over E7, G7, Bb7 and Db7. It prevents things from sound too symmetrical. So for any Dom7 chord you go up 1/2 step from it's root, you can play (either/ and/or)) a dim triad with maj7th as well as on the 3rd, 5th and 7th degree of that Dom 7. It creates some unexpected sounds as we're all so use to hearing those successive minor thirds.
    Last edited by whiskey02; 03-14-2017 at 08:38 AM.

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by whiskey02
    Anyplace you're using a dim chord you can play a dim triad with a major 7th, so you can use
    FdimMa7/G=G13b9, AbdimMa7/G=Gaddb9, BdimMa7/G=G7#9, DdimMa7/G=G7b9b5(no 3rd), over E7, G7, Bb7 and Db7. It prevents things from sound too symmetrical. So for any Dom7 chord you go up 1/2 step from it's root, you can play (either/ and/or)) a dim triad with maj7th as well as the 3rd, 5th and 7th degree of that Dom 7. It creates some unexpected sounds as we're all so use to hearing those successive minor thirds.
    Weirdly that's one of the first things I was taught about jazz harmony.

    I often play a pattern which belongs to the W-1/2 scale where you play the dim chord with a note a step up (i.e. dim maj7) and then resolve to dim. This has kind of an old school sound actually.

    If you don't resolve it sounds more modern.

    So yesterdays harmonic embellishment = today's harmony.

    It's happened time and time again in jazz history

    maj7 used to resolve to maj6
    7sus4 used to resolve to 7
    m11 used to resolve to V7 up a fourth
    o7(maj7) used to resolve to o7
    And so on

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee
    Yes, that would be the more obvious use, which is why I questioned what you meant. GdimMa7 over G7 would be more "unusual".
    I dunno. Standard usage of a non-leading tone dim 7 chord would be in some sort of turnaround, for instance:

    I bIIIo7 IIm7 V7

    There's no real reason (as I am starting to realise) why you couldn't express this as a 1-6-2-5,

    I VI7 IIm7 V7

    especially on rapid changes. In fact this is quite often what happens.

    (The reason why we would use one rather than the other would be based on what melody note was in use. As always, in fact.)

    You are just saying bIIIo7 = passing chord moving to IIm7

    So the VI7/bIIIo7 (which is the same as VI7/VIo7) becomes a potential sub by default. Stick in a (diatonic) maj7 on that VIo7 (the 7 of the key) and G7 --> Gdim(maj7) WILL GO.

    It's like the fact that:

    I IV I is often subbed as either
    I IV #IVo7 I
    I IV IVm6 I

    And one sub gets used over the other far more often than you would naively think from taking jazz theory too seriously.

    Some players seem to have a seriously hard time accepting this it would seem. They might come up with some sort of theory to explain it, to justify it. For example, they might say Gdim(maj7) --> G7 has something to do with the diminished scale, to which I say make burnt offerings and libations to your gods if you must.

    For me it's an empirical observation that jazz musicians play fast and loose with passing chords ALL THE TIME and it sounds COOL, and that looking at things this way actually makes life easier.
    Last edited by christianm77; 03-12-2017 at 01:11 PM.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee
    Yes, I follow this. But what about on the actual V7 to I cadence.
    Sure! Why not?

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee
    Yes, I follow this. But what about on the actual V7 to I cadence.
    I need a little clarification also on this
    Chord.
    Initially in Classical Harmony a °vii chord was always a Dominant Function or Secondary Dominant so it was °vii7 of i or sometimes ( later in History ) °vii7 of I (substituting for a half diminished chord)
    and the °vii 7 could also be °vii7 of ii, iii ,IV,
    etc. [ preceding any scale degree Chord ]as a secondary Dominant function .Technically a secondary °vii7 Chord.
    It was a V chord with the root missing but resolved the same way .
    Then in the 20th Century Classical and Jazz Composers ( and the Books credit Jazz as helping to extend Theory and Practice) took everything further.

    So this Thread and this Chord is a non dominant Diminished M7- right ?

    Anyway - I voiced it as an alternate chord not a substitute to a Gmaj7 and voiced the
    GdimM 7 with the common tone on top of both chords and it passed the James Taylor / Michael Hedges fingerpicked test and the R&B Test as a not too outside sounding chord - a plus ..

    Later in the Thread someone has this as a half step ABOVE the alternate chord -I assume again non dominant and using the
    M7 as a common Tone to the Root of the Alternate Destination chord ?

    So in the half step above you might have

    Cmajor ( root on top ) alternating with C# DimM7 which also has the C note on top to
    smooth out the two via common tone ?

    Please correct ANY of the above if I have it wrong...[and I will edit my Post] .

    The first example works so it's a done deal...for me ..

    Not sure if I understand the #i DimM7.
    Jazz seems to work for everything if I get it right ...so ?
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 03-13-2017 at 10:30 AM.

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa
    I need a little clarification also on this
    Chord.
    Initially in Classical Harmony a °vii chord was always a Dominant Function or Secondary Dominant so it was °vii7 of i or sometimes ( later in History ) °vii7 of I (substituting for a half diminished chord)
    and the °vii 7 could also be °vii7 of ii, iii ,IV,
    etc. [ preceding any scale degree Chord ]as a secondary Dominant function .Technically a secondary °vii7 Chord.
    It was a V chord with the root missing but resolved the same way .
    Then in the 20th Century Classical and Jazz Composers ( and the Books credit Jazz as helping to extend Theory and Practice) took everything further.

    So this Thread and this Chord is a non dominant Diminished M7- right ?

    Anyway - I voiced it as an alternate chord not a substitute to a Gmaj7 and voiced the
    GdimM 7 with the common tone on top of both chords and it passed the James Taylor / Michael Hedges fingerpicked test and the R&B Test as a not too outside sounding chord - a plus ..

    Later in the Thread someone has this as a half step ABOVE the alternate chord -I assume again non dominant and using the
    M7 as a common Tone to the Root of the Alternate Destination chord ?

    So in the half step above you might have

    Cmajor ( root on top ) alternating with C# DimM7 which also has the C note on top to
    smooth out the two via common tone ?

    Please correct ANY of the above if I have it wrong...[and I will edit my Post] .

    The first example works so it's a done deal...for me ..

    Not sure if I understand the #i DimM7.
    Jazz seems to work for everything if I get it right ...so ?
    #Io7 going to I is pretty rare. I can't think of too many examples. Anyone?

    bIIIo7 going to IIm is extremely common.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa
    l
    I need a little clarification also on this
    Chord.

    But initially in Classical Harmony a °vii chord was always a Dominant Function or Secondary Dominant so it was °vii7 of i or sometimes ( later in History ) °vii7 of I (substituting for a half diminished chord)
    and the °vii 7 could also be °vii7 of ii, iii ,IV,
    etc. [ preceding any scale degree Chord ]as a secondary Dominant function .
    It was a V chord with the root missing but resolved the same way .
    Then in the 20th Century Classical and Jazz Composers ( and the Books credit Jazz as helping to extend Theory and Practice) took everything further.

    So this Thread and this Chord is a non dominant Diminished M7- right ?

    Anyway - I voiced it as an alternate chord not a substitute to a Gmaj7 and voiced the
    GdimM 7 with the common tone on top of both chords and it passed the James Taylor / Michael Hedges fingerpicked test and the R&B Test as a not too outside sounding chord - a plus ..

    Later in the Thread someone has this as a half step ABOVE the alternate chord -I assume again non dominant and using the
    M7 as a common Tone to the Root of the Alternate Destination chord ?

    So in the half step above you might have

    Cmajor ( root on top ) alternating with C# DimM7 which also has the C note on top to
    smooth out the two via common tone ?

    Please correct ANY of the above if I have it wrong...[and I will edit my Post] .

    The first example works so it's a done deal...for me ..

    Not sure if I understand the #i DimM7.
    Jazz seems to work for everything if I get it right ...so ?
    I see dim7s as having three possible uses:

    1. vii of following chord. This is the most common. One note (any note) in the dim7 moves up a half-step to the following chord root.

    2. common-tone diminished. This is where one note (any note) in the dim7 is the same as the following chord root.

    3. passing chromatic diminished. One note (any note) in the dim7 moves down a half-step to the following chord root.

    Because dim7 chords are symmetrical (there are only three, each with four possible names and spellings), no other usage is possible. Every single dim7 chord can be interpreted in one of those three ways, because the bass note (chord inversion) is irrelevant.

    However, there are still limitations on where each one might be (commonly) used.
    So, usage (1) can precede just about any chord (with the possible exception of another dim7). Although it derives from vii of harmonic minor, it can resolve to majors too; and in secondary capacity too of course.
    Usage (2) is most common before a major chord, but that can be I, IV or V (or minor key III or VI).
    Usage (3) is most common before the ii chord in a major key, or between two minor chords a whole step apart - which tends to imply they are iii and ii in a major key. Like christianm77, I can't think of an instance where a bII (#I)dim7 resolves to I. But - having tried it - it sounds OK. A little weird, but not unusable.

    A maj7 could be added to any of these dim7s (any extension a half-step below a chord tone is possible). Obviously in usage (3) that gives it a shared tone with the following chord (root), which might seem to confuse it with usage (2) - but doesn't really.
    IOW, adding an extension to a dim7 has some interesting effects. It can make it more ambiguous - or less ambiguous! I.e., adding a maj7 to a viidim chord makes it a 7b9 chord - although not necessarily the right 7b9 for the key. Adding A# to Bdim7 turns it into Bb7b9, making it less adaptable to other contexts.
    Last edited by JonR; 03-17-2017 at 09:12 AM.

  19. #68

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    It can also be the dominant 7th sharped 5th, sharped 9th minus the root.