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could someone help me to identificate second chord in progression of this song?
Gmaj - Bbdim - Amin - D7 etc...
I see there neither Modal exchange nor Dominant substitution on that chord.
how you explain yourself background of this dim chord?
thanx
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09-30-2016 02:40 AM
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One of the way to explain it could be as passing diminished chord between inversion of Gmaj/B - only without inversion...
Bbdim makes strong tension to A-7, it can be heard as A-7 with suspesion even.
IN general this is uncommon usage of common turnaroud III - IIIbdim - II (or I/III - IIIbdim - II).
So it could be explaind just with common diatonic functional harmony.
To me biggest difference here from common passing chord is that Gershwin takes more space for it and repeats main motive over it... Passing diminished usually sounds secondary to the following or precedent chord (that's why they are passing).
But in this song it has almost the same value and importance.
And this makes it sound even more like IIIb7b5... more strong and independent quality of dominant chord
this Bb in bass - at least for me - has very strong feel of getting 'out of key'... which does not happen with passing dims usually
And this could be explained probably with Modal interchange if you wantLast edited by Jonah; 09-30-2016 at 03:39 AM.
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Dim7 chords have three uses. That is, there are only three possible ways in which they can relate to the following chord, and all ways are used.
1. The so-called "dominant substitution" is the most common, and is a misnomer, IMO. This is a chord in its own right, the viidim7 of the following chord. It has a "dominant function", but is not necessarily a replacement for the V7. In the key of A minor (eg), G#dim7 is the diatonic vii chord and and lead to Am without having to think of it as a "substitute" for E7. When leading to Am in another key, then it's a "secondary leading tone chord".
You recognise this usage when one note (any note) of the dim7 is a half-step below the root of the following chord.
2. The "common-tone diminished" is where one note (any note) of the dim7 is the same as the root of the following chord. This tends to lead to a major chord, and is marked by upward chromatic voice-leading in two other voices.
3. The only other possibility is where one note (any note) of the dim7 is a half-step above the root of the following chord - which is what's happening here. As Jonah says, this is normally just called a "passing" (or "chromatic") dim7, and typically it occurs between two minor chords a whole step apart, such as the iii and ii chord in a major key (as in "Night and Day"). In that case, you can sometimes see it as vii of the preceding chord - eg, in this case, replace Gmaj with Bm (a rootless Gmaj7
), and then Bbdim7 (A#dim7) could seem to work as vii of Bm.
But really the reason it works is the mix of downward voice-leading and shared tones. In this case, you not only get B-Bb-A, you also get D-Db-C, while the G note is shared between all 3 chords - and the E between the last 2 (which could also be the 6th on G). One could use Bbm7, but that would mean - for some tastes - too much emphasis on the chromatic descent and no shared tones (too much parallelism).
It might also be worth pointing out that C#dim7 (same chord re-spelled) is vii of the approaching D7, so if it wasn't for that Am7 we'd have a clear secondary leading tone chord (vii/V). In fact, the descending bass move to Am is more significant, so "passing chromatic" dim7 is the best interpretation.Last edited by JonR; 09-30-2016 at 05:41 AM.
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u seem confused. its similar to G Bm Am D only with half step lower bass. and its non functional.
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Bbdim7 is a very different chord from Bm.
Originally Posted by EJGuitar
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lol jon ur right. but its essentially the same. most of the time we just have to look how the bass move.
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Diminished sevenths on bIII are extremely common in the standards repertoire. So you should practice them in every key.
This is the usual, but not the only, context in G:
G/B Bbo7 Am7 D7
I bIIIo7 IIm V7
I call this a swing turnaround, as it was at least as common as 1-6-2-5 during the swing era.
I Can't Give You Anything But Love
Pennies From Heaven
Stella by Starlight (unusual in that the song starts on the dim7 - the first chord on this tune was originally to be Dbo7)
Body and Soul
Djangology
Night and Day
China Boy
and loads more I can't think of right now....
Note that this chord is not functioning as a tonicising diminished chord - that is a dim chord on the leading note (a semitone below the target chord.)
Because of this I think of it as a bridging diminished chord - chromatic voice leading leading us from G6 to Am7. Barry Harris points how this works in his classes:
B D E G = G6/B
Bb Db E G = Bbo7
A C E G = Am7
See how smooth that is.
Obviously this can go either way.
A C E G = Am7
Bb Db E G = Bbo7
B D E G = G6/B
There are different ways of handling this progression in improvisation, but it's probably good to start with the arpeggios.
In his contrefact of Embraceable You, Quasimodo, Bird pretty much ignores it. Bird not like biiii diminished.Last edited by christianm77; 09-30-2016 at 06:20 AM.
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I treat it like a II7, A7.
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Indeed could see Originally Posted by 4thstuning
Bbo7 Am7 D7 G
as
A7b9 D7 G
However, I don't personally really like this perhaps because of the way I handle 7b9 chords as minor dominants. So I would be playing D minor (harmonic/natural/melodic) over A7b9 really. I don't really like the sound of that scale in this context.
Funnily enough I happy with the exact same scales on JonR's case 3 - for example C#o7 (Go7) going to G, so we have D minor --> G major
However, if you tend to match diminished scales on 7b9, that works very well, as I like the sound of the Bb W-H or A H-W on that particular chord.
BTW the diminished seventh chord is kind of seen an old fashioned sound in jazz. Great if you are playing old school music, but not so good if you are playing more modern stuff.
Therefore, in the Jazz repertoire a lot of songs with bIII chords in have had them swapped out for bIIIm or a bIIIm bVI7 - that is a ii V in a semitone up. For example, in Darn that Dream the end of the A section was originally:
G/B | Bbo7 | Am7 | D7
And in the standard modern real book changes we have
Bm7 E7 | Bbm7 Eb7 | Am7 | B7
In this case, they actually change the melody to fit the new changes. Notice that the Eb7 is a tritone substitute of the A7 chord. This progression is pretty common actually. Just Friends and Stablemates spring to mind right away.
Just Friends: G | Bbm7 | Eb7 | Am7 | D7 |
Stablemates (transposed to G) Bbm7 Eb7 | Am7 | D7
When soloing in a bop context I don't think that would cause too many ripples unless you are playing with a pianist. You are not limited to playing the changes as written.
AFAIK Reg plays 1-b3-2-5 as 1-6-2-5 because he doesn't like the way diminished chords sound - so he will play E7b9 or E7alt on Bbo7. And if you are going for that Blue Note/Post Bop sound, that's completely acceptable.Last edited by christianm77; 09-30-2016 at 06:37 AM.
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So to sum up, using Jon R's three types of dim7 chord, this is how I handle dim7 chords in soloing.
1) e.g. G#o7 Am7
A harmonic/natural minor scale, or G mixolydian, raise G to G# (same notes different concept)
2) e.g Bbo7 Am7
Some decoration of the Bbo7 with chromatics including Bb W-H scale
Play the G blues scale which has most of the important notes.
Or - I 'iron it out' replacing with
E7b9 Am7 (VI7-II)
Bbm7 Eb7 Am7 D7 (sideslip II-V's - very bop)
Or ignore it completely
To my ears, these last three options don't work for tunes where the dim7 is a bit of a 'feature' - e.g. Stella or China Boy. This usually means that the chord is sticking around for a while - two bars say - so can't be thought a pure passing chord. It works fine for Embraceable You.
However, there is the Stella sub:
Bbo7 | % | Am7 D7
becomes
C#m7b5 | F#7b9 | Am7 D7
Or two rather disjointed ii-V's.
3) e.g. Bbo7 G/B or Go7 G
Interpret the Bbo7 (bIIIo7) as a C#o7 and take the C (IV) mixolydian and raise the C to a C#. Also can be viewed as a D minor scale.
I find these are the sounds I gravitate to.
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We all have our own ways of doing it. My version of that tune is:
GM7 | A7b9/Bb | Am7 E7....
I don't like the E7b9 for the Bbdim, it just emphasizes the wrong notes for me. Same for using a Dm variant.
Here's a solo take I did from 2010 over the changes using the II7 approach:
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what about take it more easy:
Gmaj - Bbdim - Amin - D7 etc...
(A7 sub ) going to D7, just IImi is inserted
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Lovely playing. Originally Posted by 4thstuning
It sounds to me like you often play II mixolydian on the diminished chord. Is that correct? Seems to work well for you.
In which case of course you can always take the root of the mixolydian and put it up a semitone to get the Bbo7. So, in G, A mixolydian has the A raised to Bb and you get in effect B harmonic minor.
Not an approach I had considered, TBH. I might try this.
Incidentally I often play this grip for the second chord (in G) BTW - can be written as A13b9/Bb
6 x 5 6 7
Check out what Parker wrote on Embraceable You - Quasimodo. He just plain ignores the dim7.
I think I want to point out (to myself as much as anyone) that the changes are not immutable or sacrosanct when soloing on a tune. You can muck around with them quite a bit.
The changes also have a horizontal as well as a vertical aspect. Vertical is covered by CST etc, but horizontal is understood through functions, resolutions and targetting.
If you play the E7b9 you ignore the vertical aspect of the Bbo7 and concentrate on it's function or horizontal direction which is to move to the Am7 chord. This might seem a bit weird, but it's actually quite common for bop guys to play changes this way. If you do this you need to resolve into the A minor chord very emphatically and lead the phrase into it. What Reg might call a 'tonal target' (if I understand him right.)
The changes are not immutable of sacrosanct when accompanying a melody either - it's the melody that is immutable and sacrosanct. The 1-b3-2-5 bassline is an attractive way of accompanying the melody of the song - which is why Gershwin wrote it of course - and the I bIIIo7 IIm V7 supplies attractive inner voice leading, but it oesn't have to be that way of course.
I have to remind myself of these things being a guitar player :-)
Embraceable You BTW is one of those tunes with MANY MANY variations in the changes.
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Actually - I think A mixolydian-(A#) | D mixolydian | % | might have just become my favourite way to express Bbo7 | Am7 | D7 | no fuss.
It's funny that I have to think of the Bb as an A# to get it working..... But A mixolydian does indeed work very well.
Another way of looking at it
C#m7b5 F#7b9 | D7 | % |
Which is our Stella sub, right?
Cheers!Last edited by christianm77; 09-30-2016 at 07:33 AM.
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Bb dim wins. Or Bird used C# Min 7 F# 7b9. Also, original 1st chord is likely G6, b/c E in melody is 1st note on 1st beat. I don't have Mr. Gershwin's sheet, so I won't swear to it, but it feels right. Originally Posted by mertas
Modal exchange? WTF? Lose the $5 words, please, and instead go listen to a 'straight' singer like Doris Day or Jo Stafford to get the original melody and good arranger's changes. Trust me, I wouldn't tell you wrong.
Good luck!
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With this song...
To me it is important to avoid reduction of original changes to typical turnarounds...
That's why I stressed that though originally it could come from typical passing dim (like III-IIIbdim - II)...
what Gershwin does here is more than that... bringing this chord forth he gets it released from its passing quality... it sounds more independent
I would not make it a universal rule... in some cases yes, but here I see that original changes are important to keep the character of the tune...The changes are not immutable of sacrosanct when accompanying a melody either - it's the melody that is immutable and sacrosanct. The 1-b3-2-5 bassline is an attractive way of accompanying the melody of the song - which is why Gershwin wrote it of course - and the I bIIIo7 IIm V7 supplies attractive inner voice leading, but it oesn't have to be that way of course.
Cole Porters sonds often have very minimalistic melody and without original changes they can almost becom unidentifiable...
I guess 'I'll be seeing you' gets lots of it s charm from changes...
I do not say we cannot make subs... but if we think in a way that we want to have and develope original song idea - it is important that we consider the character of original changes too... namely the character... the meaning (not only its formal place and function in some concept)
We speak a lot of musical theoretic issues, but what is the meaning of this or that turnaround... how it effects on the melody, lyrics, how spaces in the tune work... what are realtions between the parts...
Here Gershwin uses the same simple motive and very typical turnaround but with just small shift and balance of spaces he turns - yes I really think so - in very new original harmonic solution...
And we should try to work with it like this as with new unusual individual turnaround... not trying to reduce it to something typical or standard/
I know how to deal with typical III - IIIbdim - II... but this IIIbdim in 'Embraceable' has been also something new when I encoutered it... it is kind of challenge... why? Because I just hear it works differently...
By the way - I think Peter Bernstein said that after he really did this tune he felt that he could do almost everything in jazz... (not sure that it's precise quote)... but when I read that I understood what he meant.Last edited by Jonah; 09-30-2016 at 08:42 AM.
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If you keep the G in the bass, you have the bass-line constant with movement in the chord, plus you have the melody note, E natural, on top. Or, if you play the first chord with the B in the bass, you can put the Bb in the bass on the BbDim7 and have a chromatic line moving to the Am7. Also, the E and G in the chord can gesture at the Em, the vi chord in G. Originally Posted by mertas
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my jazz guitar friend - we all are tired, old and overloaded with jazz progressions. our brains are tired and we do not smile that much like rockn'roll players. Lets take it less seriosly. Originally Posted by Jonah
Bill is also not youngest anymore, but he keeps it simple
do you like it?
or rather this talented guy
I love both, both play it fresh and with deep respect to basics IMHO.
relaxing and ejoying journey to roots of songsLast edited by mertas; 09-30-2016 at 09:07 AM. Reason: correction
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it cant be passing for theres no III. can it.
even C-Bdim-C is not T-D-T.
now everything in tonal harmony is always about I V I and elaboration in between. ppl tend to get distracted when they find case like this. Bbdim. in reality. chords move in subordinate way. on the surface. V is subordinated to I as we find in overtone series. but then we cant just have I in progression. otherwise is not a progression. thus V gains a structural role. the other degress are not structural. or functional as u'd say. why. cos theyre less stronger than V. hence theyre more subordinated.
some old theory tells us that SD has a function. actually its more like honorary bcos it drives T towards D. and it gives different colour especially when theres no other degree intervening. but in reality. its barely structural. if not at all.
well the tricky part is to recognize what chord subordinate to what chord.
had we find that Bbdim is a Bb7. we would say oh thats how it goes. while in reality its just the same chord.
were too much focusing on dominant-tonic relation and its variation. which is right in the context of secondary structure (i.e, tonicization). but here we have a different case. and even get more tricky bcos its a Bb instead of B. but actually its just similar. as an inventory of G. only in another dimension.
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I only read enough to see a lot of you are overcomplicating this. I take Christian's view on things, though the detail was starting to make my head spin. Generally, I'm just "what-he-saiding." the biii is an awesome chord that pulls to the ii or the I. Just let it be its own thing. I play a major scale with the flat biii dim chord tones in it over this chord; whatever that is.
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To add my 0.5 cent ...
I sometimes think the progression
vi , II7 , ii , V7
Gets overlooked by us lot here !
I don't hear much talk of it but its really common in tunes
To me , This is one of those disguised a bit...
Em, A7 ,Am,D7 can be
G A7 Am D7 can be
G , Bb dim , Amin ,D7
Well that's one way I hear it ....
PS the summaries of the three different ways
A dim operates are most welcolm tho
Many thanks guys
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On another thread a guy provided a very clever punchline to a joke I proposed: Originally Posted by christianm77
Dorian, Locrian and Mixolydian go to a bar. When they try to order the bartender says
'Before I can serve you you'll have to give me your keys'...
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The way I like to think of Dim 7 chords is the way I learned from Alan Kingstone's Barry Harris book.
There's only 3 possible dim 7th chords to spell. each one has a place in each key.
The biii dim and all its inversions pull to the I or ii
The bii dim " " pull to the ii
The ii dim " " pull to the I
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Wow, another sharp cookie around here. What is 'SD'? Originally Posted by EJGuitar
I don't think about this stuff myself, just use the original change or--in rare instances---one of my own or someone else's devising I like better.
I remember Gerald Wilson saying in an interview about how the songwriter himself doesn't always use the best changes (he was talking about ELLINGTON!). I guess that's why God, in her wisdom, created arrangers.
In my view melody is sacrosanct, unless you're a Paul Desmond---and who among us is? Melody more so than changes. The public and especially players (singers too?) will make 'editorial' corrections' on your changes, if they don't wash---just as they do with lyrics (another topic for another day)...
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I think Doruzka is a MF, and quite original. Originally Posted by mertas
FWIW...
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