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Having a fun time (!) reading through Art of Partimenti (Sanguinetti) and Music in the Gallant Style (Gjerdingen) and I understand a few others have those books and have investigated them.
I've always loved 17th and 18th century music and was interested in learning more about that style of harmony and composition anyway, but of course there are always links to later tonal music, including standards.
I've always found classical theory very helpful for understanding why standards are composed the way they are (most standards are composed
The Gjerdingen book is particularly focussed on the modules that 17th/18th century composers used to assemble compositions. Now of course with anyone who has taken a look at Conrad Cork's Harmony with Lego Bricks or Jerry Coker's hearing the changes (or his just learned lots of stock jazz rep) will find a bell ringing at this point. One main difference is that the bass progressions are also linked to a melody.
The harmonic theory is all based around figured bass - which can be a bit inaccessible at first. For example, what we would call a ii-V-I would be written out differently depending on the inversion. But, I actually find that this system makes a lot of sense in many ways, and it's becoming more intuitive.
There's also a lot of links to later harmony, including jazz... Some of the modules are... familiar.
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08-25-2016 08:48 AM
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I ended up majoring in theory because I found it all pretty interesting. I used to have to physically go to the library at North Texas to find all the classic theory books. Now, not only is everything translated to English, but surprisingly there is no real market for old music theory books, so most of the stuff I read in college is available used on Amazon for three bucks.
I've been reading Heinrich Schencker's "Die Freie Satz" and Couperin's treatise on ornamentation
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I could never really understand classical composition texts, though. Well, I could but it all seemed too complicated for me to apply to the act of composition.
These books get you in there right away. I'm getting pretty close to being able to improvise a minuet in a reasonably idiomatic and historically correct way, which is nice. Because of the way the voice leading is 'baked into' the basic modules things like consecutives are much easier to avoid, too.
Then there's the partimenti exercises which refine your ability to recognise these formulae at a glance and apply them in the real world.
This is all based on recent research - as the quote on the back puts it, the question of how the composers of the 17th and 18th century were able to compose so much music (and improvise) hasn't really been asked by academia before. I feel that these books bring the answer into sharp focus - unlike 19th/20th century functional harmony etc (but then I don't really like 19th century music as much.)
While to become fully conversant with the style is obviously 10,000 hours study, I'm delighted by how accessible I'm finding it, and how many cross-overs there are with jazz.
May take a look at the Couperin book at some point.Last edited by christianm77; 08-25-2016 at 12:46 PM.
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the Couperin book is really only good for a reference of period ornamentation practice. I'm reading it again because I'm preparing a couple of the cello suites right now.
The Schenker book is pretty interesting. I'm rereading the chapters on the middleground, again with an eye to playing a more insightful interpretation of Bach
you would probably enjoy this, if you haven't checked it out already.
https://www.amazon.com/Continuo-Play.../dp/0193184338
That's about as close to the "horse's mouth" as it gets
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Cello suites? On guitar I presume?
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yes, there's going to be some opportunities coming up for me to play some classical repertoire over the next few months. I've played 3 of his suites in the past, 2 of the cello suites and the E major lute suite. I'm getting the 4th cello suite back on the memory banks now. That one isn't played as often (the 1st and the 6th cello suite seem to be the popular ones). I play a transcription in A major, but the original for solo cello was in E flat.
Bach's 6 cello suites, 4 lute suites and 6 violin partitas are all popular with classical guitarists. It always amazes me that he wrote all that chamber music in only 6 years.
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Originally Posted by Nate Miller
My wife plays cello incidentally, she plays the Bach suites.Last edited by christianm77; 08-26-2016 at 11:34 AM.
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Ever been tempted to try the lute, BTW?
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no, my right hand is used to classical guitar and I use nails. So going with no nails and thumb behind my fingers for lute never appealed to me.
I had a good buddy in college that ended up getting into baroque performance practice with the music history department and he played the school lute for a while. We talked a lot about the differences, and I decided back then that lute wasn't really for me
you play one, though, don't you?
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Originally Posted by Nate Miller
Anyway, not playing lute at the moment. Didn't get enough time. I need one in modern pitch so I can play with others... Think I'd play more then.
I loved Julian Bream playing Weiss, and then I heard it on the original instrument. No going back for me... Maybe I should go towards baroque lute, but that's a whole weird tuning and so many strings...
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Oh to be a fly on the wall:
In later life, Weiss became a friend of Wilhelm Friedemann Bach and met J.S. Bach through him. Bach and Weiss were said to have competed in improvisation, as the following account by Johann Friedrich Reichardt describes:
"Anyone who knows how difficult it is to play harmonic modulations and good counterpoint on the lute will be surprised and full of disbelief to hear from eyewitnesses that Weiss, the great lutenist, challenged J. S. Bach, the great harpsichordist and organist, at playing fantasies and fugues."
Baroque cutting contest. (I like the way Bach is name-checked as an instrumentalist BTW. I understand that he was extremely highly rated as an improviser and AFAIK his compositions were not well known.)Last edited by christianm77; 08-26-2016 at 02:43 PM.
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Well, I've played theorbo, archlute, 13c baroque lute, 11c baroque lute, 10c transition lute, 7c Renaissance lute, 6c early Renaissance lute, and 5c late medieval lute, plus baroque guitar. Also played continuo in baroque orchestras. I maintain that learning to improvise from a figured bass was the best musical education I ever had. Nothing else came close. Playing the lute part in Bach's St John Passion was a highlight...although a rather nervous one! But it went well.
I sold all my lutes a few years back. I never had all those at one time, as I had to sell in order to buy - they are very expensive. I don't miss them, as I'm too engrossed in the things I'm doing now. But what I learned then has stayed with me.
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playing in a period baroque ensemble must have been a blast, Rob! The baroque guitar, too, would be interesting to play. I never had the opportunity.
I used to play that Weiss Passacaglia that everybody plays...the one in the Noad book...and I also played one of his suites. A baroque guitar would have been the thing for me when I was playing Weiss. He writes a lot of big stretches, which really aren't that big on a period instrument, but are pretty stretchy on a modern classical guitar. In the end, I started getting pain in my hand from the repeated practice of his work and stopped playing his stuff entirely.
a baroque guitar would have been nice to have around back then
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Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
The St John Passion is a roast on all fronts, I can't imagine the continuo part is easy....
That piece is how I met my wife (singing - although it took us a while longer to get together.) I sang Betrachte, Meine Seele.
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Ha, maybe I accompanied you...probably not.
There is an excellent tutor book that came out a couple of years ago: Figured Bass On The Classical Guitar, by Peter Croton. Recommended.
Figured bass on the classical guitar
Nate, Weiss's music music does not fit on a baroque guitar. In fact he is unlikely to have heard one in Germany, but probably heard a few when he visited Italy with his employer. Here's my baroque guitar Playlist, 13 videos:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...276E31AFD1C126
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Originally Posted by Nate Miller
Baroque guitars are awesome things, although as with all period plucked strings, rather pricey. I would probably spend the money on an archtop TBH...
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Hi there
How is it going with your partimenti excercises?
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Partimento is generally unfigured bass. Just mentioning.
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Originally Posted by jazzlover21
I haven't ha much time to work on this recently. I want to knuckle down and work through some stuff when I get a chance though.
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Baroque guitars are awesome things, although as with all period plucked strings, rather pricey. I would probably spend the money on an archtop TBH...
I occasionally got a chance to play continuo this week for singers (it's amateur but with very good professional leader).
Since I do not have lots of experince with it I first grabbed baroque guitar - obviously much easier to work it out on spot (but no basses).
But now I am ready to use renaissance lute on two tunes and baroque lute on one...
The thing is that most of the tunes are not baroque but earlier time and they do not have figuered bass - basically I have just to make an arrangement from a vocal score...
I also want to put in solo baroque guitar suite... really hope for that gig to get more invitation for continuo playing so I have to do my best.
Don't know how it will work out finally... but lots of fun so far... and I have to put jazz aside for a week or two for sure((
PS
I always try to play dominant chords as dominant 7th... (not on purpose of course)... the conductor says: My dear, it sounds like again you tried to make harmony a little more rich?
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Originally Posted by Jonah
Dom 7s on bass V for unfigured bass? Heaven forfend!!!!!Last edited by christianm77; 09-27-2016 at 09:21 AM.
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Dom 7s on chord V? Sound like you need to shed the rule of the octave...
and at fast tempo in some songs they change chords so swiftly that you just strum - bang! - and it's too late... already done dom7...
Boccherini is one of favourite composers. Very fresh, inventive.
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Dom 7s on bass V for unfigured bass? Heaven forfend!!!!!
In Arcadelt madrigal there was kind of Am - D harmony in poliphony mixing in different voices - for the moment making the strong feel of D7 (with resolution to G)... of course it was not real D7..
but the fact is that if you have to strum a chord here you will just strum D7...
I like this kind of 'proto-classical' cadence in late renaissance music... like modal relations are getting more loose lead them to the new concept of relations gradually
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It's not the standard choice tho you crazy modernist
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It's not the standard choice tho you crazy modernist
Has anyone played or had a Supro Amulet ?
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