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Originally Posted by Ron Stern
Are you saving your explanation of the difference between a derivative mode and a parallel mode til later?
Originally Posted by jonasfixe
They didn't even exist there until I read them here. I'm told they exist in a book. Are you saying they don't?
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07-07-2009 02:12 PM
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The modes of a scale always contain the same notes as the parent scale. Lydian mode begins on the 4th scale degree. Originally Posted by Ron Stern
So, for G major, lydian mode is derived from the notes of G major, played starting on the 4th degree of the scale (C). So, lydian mode for G major looks like this:
C D E F# G A B (1,2,3,#4,5,6,7)
Those are the intervals of lydian mode.
I think you are just confusing musical intervals and scale degrees, which is why in your example you sharped the C, because you were thinking that you need to have a sharp 4th for lydian, which is exactly right, but it's the interval that's sharp (the F# is the sharped 4th with respect to the root C), not the 4th scale degree. I think that's what Mr. B was getting at in his last post?
Seriously: go back and look at Bako's post very carefully. He explains it perfectly.
PS: I've edited this oh, about 5658674 times, but I think this is finally correct (or at least what I wanted to say) as of 13:17 MDT (convert to zulu as needed for those in the process of circumnavigating the globe right now).Last edited by Goofsus4; 07-07-2009 at 03:18 PM.
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Hi Ron,
I presume you don't have a guitar teacher? Perhaps you know someone who might be able to help you out with this? mr. beaumont was almost certainly correct in saying that it'd be much easier to explain face-to-face (preferably with a guitar or other instrument handy).
I think we might all just be confusing you more with our slightly different explanations.
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OK, Goofsus4,
Well, at least we have two clearly different answers here, one of which must be wrong, it would seem.
You say Lydian mode of G major is C D E F# G A B.
My book says Lydian mode of G major is G A B C# D E F# G
I confirmed this by my own calculation but that doesn't add much at this point, eh?
I will restate yours to align it with mine:
yours =G-A-B-C---D-E-F#-G
mine = G-A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G
Yours looks like the G major scale to me, i.e. 1 sharp, i.e. C sharp. It's what I would call the original scale or mode root (my
book's term). It's not the "parent scale", in my understanding. You start with the "original scale" or "mode root" -- G -- and you want a certain mode of it. A bunch of calculations and as a result out pops "the parent scale" which is a second scale. But the other modes have other parents.
The parent scale of the Lydian mode of the G major scale is the D major scale, but the D major scale is not the parent scale ofThe modes of a scale always contain the same notes as the parent scale.
of all the modes of the G major scale. The notes of a mode always contain the same notes as the parent scale, indeed, in that
sense they are identical. When you convert the parent scale to a mode you don't change the notes but just state them in a
different order.
Yours: The modes of a scale always contain the same notes as the parent scale.
Mine: A single given mode of a scale always contains the same notes as the parent scale of the single given mode. Every
mode of a scale has a different "parent scale".
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ron,
you're getting way too confused...You say Lydian mode of G major is C D E F# G A B.
My book says Lydian mode of G major is G A B C# D E F# G
C Lydian = C D E F# G A B is the 4th mode in the key of G major. it is the 4th mode off of the G major parent scale (called Lydian) and it starts in C, because in the G major scale (G A B C D E F# G) C is the 4th note. the G major scale is in the key of G major.
G Lydian = G A B C# D E F# G is the 4th mode of D major. it is the 4th mode off of the D major parent scale and it starts in G, because in the D major scale (D E F# G A B C# D) G is the 4th note. the D major scale is in the key of D major.
we say C lydian is the 4th mode in the key of G major because, if you take a C major scale (C D E F G A B C) and apply the interval pattern of the Lydian mode (1 2 3 4# 5 6 7 8) to it you end up with (C D E F# G A B C) and that's basically a G major scale with its notes re-arranged.
the C major scale and C lydian are only "related" because they have the same root (which is C) but as soon as you play F# you are in the key of G major.
in the same way, G major and G lydian are "related" because they share the same root, but the C# and F# tells you you're in the key of D major.
i hope this helps you a little bit more in understanding this.
edit: note that i specifically used Key and Scale where it would be pertinent, that way you don't get more confused trying to relate all the scales to each other and you start thinking "X mode is in the key of Y major" and not "X mode comes from Y scale"Last edited by Gabe2099; 07-07-2009 at 09:01 PM.
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not exactly... Originally Posted by Ron Stern
C Ionian (C D E F G A B C)
D Dorian
E Phrygian
F Lydian
G Mixolydian
A Aeolian and
B Locrian
those all can be seen as coming from the C major scale, they contain the same notes starting on different roots.
now...
C Ionian (C D E F G A B C)
C Dorian
C Phrygian
C Lydian
C Mixolydian
C Aeolian and
C locrian
these all share the same root (C) but they can all be seen as coming from different "parent scales" because, if you look at the notes they contain, it would be like looking at different major scales starting on different roots.
here's what matt warnock (great teacher, great guitarist and all around great person that posts here too) said to me when i was confused with them modes too:
and here's the thread i started about modes a while back. Originally Posted by m78w
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/getti...out-modes.html
even after i started that thread, i stayed somewhat confused with modes for about 3 weeks. so don't get down if you don't seem to quite get it right now, it'll hit you in the head one day (or night) and you'll get it.
Last edited by Gabe2099; 07-08-2009 at 02:12 AM.
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Ron,
Either you've misread or misunderstand what the book says OR the book is wrong OR you haven't read and understood the responding posts.
Several people here have offered clear explanations of modes. This is not a complicated subject. The approach you are taking is making a muddled complicated mess out of a simple thing.
The only mode of the key of C Major that has C as a root is C Ionian. The other modes of the key of C are: D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian & B Locrian.
Likewise, the only mode of G Major that has G as a root is G Ionian. The other modes in G major are: A Dorian, B Phrygian, C Lydian, D Mixolydian, E Aeolian & F# Locrian. All these modes have one sharp.
The same holds true of the rest of the major scales and their modes.
Regards,
monk
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If i'm in a jam and someone calls out 'C Mixolydian', I would take it to mean C D E F G A Bb C, if they called out 'Mixolydian in C', i'd take it to mean C D E F G A B C.
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You mean G A B C D E F G, right? Different tonal centre. Originally Posted by ichijou
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Hi, Gabe, thanks for the help, and especially for the encouragement.
Looks like the C major scale to me. I thought that G major had F#, not F. Originally Posted by Gabe2099
That's true, once you have determined the modes, they will all start on the root note of the mode, though they will all have different notes, because they all have a different parent scale. Originally Posted by Gabe2099
Again, I only know what they tell me.
I realize that you can express any mode as a step sequence, e.g. Mixolydian = 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 8 and simply lay that over the scale you're playing in and see what happens. E.g. in C it gives you Bb as 7. I derived the table on paper and checked it against the table in the book. I've even designed a few rudimentary arpeggios attempting to emphasize the difference between playing the straight scale versus playing one the modes. It's far easier that way of course -- just figure out which notes are different and lean on them -- and I imagine at some point you begin looking at the modes as just another set of scales and remember them by their fingering patterns rather than as a series of notes, and then even forget that once the harmonic effects take root in the subconscious. None of this is the issue. If I'm making some mistake in the derivation of the table, it may well be because I've missed something fundamental which may cause other and further difficulties. The time to find it is now.A term that will be used throughout this book is parent scale. Simply put, this refers to the major scale that a mode is derived from. For example, C major is the parent scale of D Dorian. C major is also the parent scale of E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, and so on.
Example
To find the parent scale of A Lydian:
Step 1) Lydian is the fourth mode.
Step 2) A is the fourth scale step of E major.
Step 3) E major is the parent scale of A Lydian.
To find the parent scale of _________ ________________
1. ----- is the ______ mode.
2. ___ is the _____ scale step of ____ major.
3. ____ major is the parent scale of ____ _____
-- Jeff Kolb, Scales And Modes (2003) Musicians Institute.
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Ron, out of curiousity, what's the book?
it's probably better at this point to just look at the modes the way matt explained them, via intervals of a half step or whole step. this book seems to be screwing things up for you by trying to draw parallels between parent scales and such, and it sounds like, if what you typed is verbatim, some of the info is flat out wrong. put the book away, and dig some of the info in this thread--it's correct.
i'll stand by what i said: the modes are not hard to understand, but they're also not beginner shit. until you have the major scale DOWN, put the modes away...the modes are no magic potion, i promise you.
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I concur but this other guy says a mode is a change of key. You can look at it as a change of key precisely because the parent scale of the mode is a different scale than the scale of the mode root but I don't know why you would. I would think that usually the time period over it wouldn't last long to make it worthwhile. E.g. Originally Posted by Gabe2099
1. you're playing in C and you want to be cool and throw in the Mixolydian mode of C.
2. The parent scale of the Mixolydian mode of C is F which has Bb rather than B. That's why F is called the parent scale, because that's where the Bb came from.
3. If you substitute Bb for B in the C scale -- the scale of the mode root -- you're playing the Mixolydian mode of C, not the C major scale. In the context of the C major scale, substituting Bb for B, a la mode, produces a formula, i.e. 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 8, which is the mixolydian mode no matter what major scale you apply it to. Right?
In practical terms, flat the 7th note of the scale during the mode, then un-flat it to go back to the original key. What is the advantage of considering these transactions as a key change?
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I think you've got it figured out. yay! Originally Posted by Ron Stern
there is no advantage to calling it a key change, Just remember that one is C mixo and one is C major.
theory is all about condensing large amounts of info into one or two words. It's to be able to think more quickly and to achieve more of the sound you want with less guessing. it's used for mostly non-guitar-specific musical tasks.
It is understanding the "Harmonic Language" of music. It's a lot like geometery and won't make you a better player... or hip.... It just speeds everything up, everything, because you are relying on centuries of research and liturature to guide instead of JUST your fingers and ears.
Basically, you just have to memorize this stuff.. and it really helps to have a teacher who can answer your questions in words as well as aurally, and visually.Last edited by timscarey; 07-08-2009 at 12:18 AM.
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The Guitar Handbook by Ralph Denyer. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Jazz Guitar by Jeff Schroedl.
Chord Tone Soloing by Barrett Tagliarino.
Scales and Modes by Jeff Kolb.
Don't actually own the latter, just copied the part on modes from the library.
The main problem seems to be differing definitions of "parent scale."
By "the" major scale do you mean w w h w w w h ? The step sequence? E to F and B to C are built-in half-steps? Scale notes are numbered 1-7? Intervals from the root to each, and from note one any other, etc.? Each note a root of a series of chords known as the diatonic chord? I mean, there's the major scale formula, and then other things that are founded upon it, refer to it, etc. I do not in fact have the key signatures memorized. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
The practical value of modes for me at present is to keep from falling into various ruts in improvising melodies, really just melodic fills as I call them. Put something new in there, see what happens. But what, exactly? Later, if I get that far, I'd like to check out the results of applying the modes to various harmonic schemes, chord progressions, etc.
Funny thing about books, in the part about the modes, they say they do all kind of wonderful things, then rarely mention them again. Perhaps they are implicit in the succeeding material.
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you're right, it is C i was going for but i started laying out the modes for G major and when i changed to C major to make it easier, i forgot to change the G to a C. my bad Originally Posted by Ron Stern
when you're playing, you won't be thinking key change or "i'll use the 5th mode of F major" but when you're studying it, you have to know that C major and C mixo are not in the same key, even if they share the same root.In practical terms, flat the 7th note of the scale during the mode, then un-flat it to go back to the original key. What is the advantage of considering these transactions as a key change?
it is a lot like typing or speaking... when you're typing, you're not thinking "hmm i'll use an intransitive verb and i'll use the active participle of said verb", all that happens subconciously and it just comes out how you meant it.
if you like reading and don't mind all the theory, check out the wikipedia entry on modes:
Properties of musical modes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
that helped me too when i was dealing with modes, if there's anything you don't quite get, just post here or PM me.
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ron, as for the major scale, i mean the major scale--w w h w w w h.
E to F and B to C are not "built in" half steps. when figuring out a major scale, never stray from that pattern.
once you figure out what notes are in each major scale (if you haven't done this, you need to) numbering the notes will show you the scale degrees...
so C major
C=1 D=2 E=3 F=4 G=5 A=6 B=7
have you learned about major scale harmony? learning how to harmonize each scale into chords, learning arpeggios based off of each chord, and playing the changes of a song is going to get you sounding jazzy a lot quicker than the modes.
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Now that is one of those old school greek philosopher fundamental-style truths there! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Ron,
I did a Google search for Ralph Denyer & The Guitar Handbook. Ten pages each.
1. Ralph Denyer was a British rock guitarist who played briefly in a band called Blonde On Blonde (1969) and another called Aquila (1970). No mention of him playing jazz nor anything about gigs or recordings since those dates. He has made his living writing guitar books.
2. According to the Table Of Contents of The Guitar Handcook (courtesy of Amazon) the book only devotes two pages to modes.
No wonder you are confused.
The Guitar Handbook is one of those "Complete Encyclopedia Everything You Ever Wanted To Know About The Guitar" type of books. These kinds of books seldom live up to the hype.
If your desire is to play jazz, there are recommendations to be had on this website for good, well written, easy to understand books on how to play jazz guitar. Look for books and DVDs by known jazz players or educators who have a proven track record in jazz guitar.
Mr Beamont has given you some solid advice. Follow it. Get the basics down. Build a strong foundation. There are no shortcuts.
Despite all of the hype, modes are not the answer to playing jazz.
Now, put the book down and slowly back away.
Regards,
monkLast edited by monk; 07-08-2009 at 12:29 PM.
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For Bigdaddy...
Okay, let's now focus on one of the more esoteric, but useful scales - the Awkward scale.
It is a one note scale, which means it's both rootless and rooted at the same time, making it quite a chameleon and ideal for improvisation over those difficult fast tempo songs with 4 chord to the bar changes.
In C, the Awkward Scale is:
C
It's musical intervals are:
1
This scale can be harmonized in any number of useful ways when employed in it's rootless form, but it's purely diatonic harmonization is:
C
But what about it's modes? Ah, here's where it gets interesting. The modes of the Awkward Scale are:
C (Awful Mode)
Use the Awful mode of the Awkward scale when you want to jump outside just for a moment and then slip back in. Tip: Don't just "run" the Awful mode over changes. Be creative with it. Good phrasing is essential to get the most out of the Awful mode.
Discography for examples of the Awkward scale and the Awful mode:
Freuden Solstice, "I Don't Like Jazz Now That I'm In My Forties" Dessicated Records, 1962
Henry "Single Stop" Johnson, "See C Rider," Gooden Records, 1973
Debbie Sliddel, "Awful Awkward Auckland Blues," Down Under Records, 1957
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GoofSus4,
You forgot In C - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I've always liked the musical instruction "traditionally played by a beautiful girl", but then I like my girls like my guitars: with curves on them.
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Interesting link. An Awful modal piece if there ever was one! Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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Ah the 60's! You know what they say about "if you can remember them, you weren't there..." Originally Posted by Goofsus4
I have a fondness of pieces like that and, say. Steve Reich's "Music for 18 Musicians". Long (40-50minute) pulsating pieces. I think of it as "Music to make out to", although my wife hates it when I say "here comes some syncopation that's really cool"
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Yeah, I know. Looking back on it I can't remember what I was trying to say. Let's drop that, and by the way, the entire original post. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I'd been working on that for a few weeks when I decided to take up modes, for variety. Learned Satin Doll, I'll Be Seeing You (In All the Old Familiar Places), some turnarounds and so on. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
"Stick with the major scale until you've memorized every note in every key" doesn't work for me. Without some application, the memory just doesn't retain it. I have to go back and forth between exercises which demonstrate theoretical concepts and actual music. For example, harmonize the major scale into chords, put them in sequence starting with the root, play that sequence, play the same sequence starting with same chord, different position, then different chord, different chord, different position, etc. It's actually fun, I suppose that's good. But it doesn't satisfy the musical appetite. So I pick some song or chord progression I know and compare it to the sequence of diatonic chords, i.e., obviously it's a different progression than the diatonic sequence, but is there a pattern to the differences? What happens if you just invent some pattern, like add a iiim7 after every I (assuming the progression has a I), or every other I, whatever. What happens? Rarely anything good, but at least it forces me to think about the relation of a chord progression that I know to the diatonic sequence, which if nothing else, reinforces it. Sometimes doing this I find parts of other songs, which then makes me want to chase down other similarities, differences and on and on and on.
Hope this makes sense. Thanks for you help.
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Here's a pattern for you to use to help you retain the harmonies. You can play the corresponding mode to it (C major 7 use C major scale, F maj7 use F lydian)
The numbers are I IV vii iii vi ii V I.
Or in C: Cma7 Fma7 Bmi7b5 Emi7 Ami7 Dmi7 G7 Cma7.
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That's the way I do it now. The parent scale is the mode. But you're not playing in the key of the parent scale, and the mode has notes not in the scale you are playing in, because you put notes from the mode, which was the point in the first place. Originally Posted by guitar-monkey
Three things:
1. Scale of the key you're playing in.
2. Mode you want to employ.
3. Parent scale of that mode, which are the notes of #2. Gives notes which substute for notes of #1.
How's that?Last edited by Ron Stern; 07-08-2009 at 06:00 PM.
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