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Originally Posted by Ron Stern
I assume the sameway . Relative and parallel. However I learned them back in 1976, both ways. Starting at the nut and working my way up the neck maintaining the key and then starting off of the same note and just change the key. I also learned my 2 octave arpeggios this way. 3 octaves I kept the note the same.
I also learned them using 9 different fingerings and in all 12 keys.
I then took these concepts and applied them to the harmonic minor, melodic minor, harmonic major, double harmonic. I used similar concepts to learn about 6 more 5,6,7 and 8 note scales.
A lot of work, but I was in colege to learn jazz and I was studying with one of the "Budda's" of guitar
And after all this I can honestly say that when I play I don't think of any names of scales, notes , whatever. all the theory becomes applied rather than practical and the music just comes out.
This is why Charlie Parker (and others) are always credited with saying "learn everything you can about your horn, then forget it".
If learning you modes in a parallel manner worked for you that's great.
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07-06-2009 05:19 PM
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Dude, Originally Posted by Ron Stern
check it out, you are just not getting it, let me try and explain it.
The mode names are nouns. we put a letter name in front of them to lell us what note is the "root" of the scale pattern.
All 7 of the diatonic modes are derived from the "diatonic system" otherwise known as "w-w-h-w-w-w-h". The "Major scale" is just this pattern from the beginning. it is also known as the "ionian scale" or the "Key".
you know that already, all you have to do now is start memorizing which modes are in which keys.
There is only 1 "thing", the diatonic system.
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OK with me, but there it is in black and white: Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
Here's some more:The seven modes of C major all contain the same notes; they just start and end on a different pitch.
The staves below set out the seven modes . . . You can can see that because they are formed by playing only the white notes on the keyboard . . .
Ralph Denyer, The Guitar Handbook
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I'm not sure what you are trying to say, or if you are confused and trying to ask a question. But the previous quote is about the following:The seven modes of C major all contain the same notes; they just start and end on a different pitch.
C major (=Ionian): C D E F G A B C
D Dorian: D E F G A B C D
E Phrygian: E F G A B C D E
F Lydian: F G A B C D E F
G Mixolydian: G A B C D E F G
A Aoelian: A B C D E F G A
B Locrian: B C D E F G A B
(I included the final, octave note, so that they would end where they started.)
Now do you have a question?
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i'm beginning to think we're arguing the same point with different words here...
Nevermind the fact that the modes existed before western music, in jazz theory, C mixolydian "comes from" or is "diatonic to" the F major scale. it is relative, or to use another word, derived from F major. hence the Bb.
C mixolydian is not derived from the C major scale. we can draw parallels, but i think this is where the confusion begins. We can also view C mixolydian as a C major scale with a flatted seventh degree, but i'm sensing more confusion coming from that wording...
at the end of the day--
mixolydian= 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
or, W W H W W H W
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So if you're playing along, nothing but notes from the C major scale, and you start playing notes from Mixolydian, you call it C Mixolydian? To remind yourself that the root of the C major scale is C? Originally Posted by timscarey
All keys don't have all modes? So like if F# doesn't have Mixolydian it's just too bad?you know that already, all you have to do now is start memorizing which modes are in which keys.
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Big daddy, I'm quoting book which lies open in front of me:
Except, as you say, the Mixolydian mode has a b7. Whereas, the Ionian does not. How then is it possible that they contain the same notes?The seven modes of C major all contain the same notes
I don't see the point of playing the same notes in a different order and calling it a mode. By that reasoning everything but the scale played in scale order from the root would be a mode. All music, except the bare bones scales, would be modes.
OTOH if you're changing the notes, according to some definition, it might produce something useful. But if you're changing the notes, you don't have the same notes. Once again:
The seven modes of C major all contain the same notes
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If they're both right, they're both right, though as you say one may be better. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
To me it's more confusing to change letters because that is associated in my mind with a change of key, which, I presume is not what is occurring. If I'm playing along in C, and for some reason I want some of that Mixolydian flavor in there, I just flat the 7th of C. Likely the use of the Mixolydian will be brief.
Also likely that other modes require more tweaking of the original scale, i.e. the scale of the key of the passage to which these other modes are being applied, requires many instances of sharping and flatting.
But here's this book that says it's all done with the white keys only.
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The quote is pointing out that Originally Posted by Ron Stern
C major(=Ionian) is C D E F G A B C
G Mixolydian is G A B C D E F G
Both of these contain the same notes (the white notes on the piano). What's the difference? The tonal centre -- what feels like tonic or rest note. Listen to some folk music to get a feel for modal music.
The point is the tonal center. If I play a C octave drone on an organ and doodle around on the white keys, it's going to sound "major". If I play a G octave drone and doodle around with the white keys, it's going to sound different. Originally Posted by Ron Stern
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Okay, now you're just misreading the book. C major is played with the white keys and so are the modes based on C major: Originally Posted by Ron Stern
C Ionian: C D E F G A B
D Dorian: D E F G A B C
E Phrygian: E F G A B C D
F Lydian: F G A B C D E
G Mixolydian: G A B C D E F
A Aoelian: A B C D E F G
B Locrian: B C D E F G A.
But that's just one example (the simplest on the keyboard). Now choose another major key, say D major. It has two sharps and there are modes built around it, in the same manner:
D Ionian: D E F# G A B C#
E Dorian: E F# G A B C# D
F# Phrygian: F# G A B C# D E
G Lydian: G A B C# D E F#
A Mixolydian: A B C# D E F# G
B Aoelian: B C# D E F# G A
C# Locrian: C# D E F# G A B
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Too much talk, not enough music? Listen to the best known modal Jazz piece, So What:
It's form is
D Dorian (16 bars)
Eb Dorian (8 bars)
D Dorian (8 bars)
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okay, i think i've figured out the problem.
when the book says that all the modes of C major can be played on the white keys only, it's right.
the modes ARE indeed closely linked to the major scale. each major scale can be pulled apart like this...
playing it from the 1st note back to the first note= ionian, or the major scale (synonymous)
starting on the second note (in the key of C, that second note is D) and playing thru to D, it's Dorian. Yes, D Dorian is a C major scale...Don't glaze over yet, this isn't my favorite way of explaining something like this either (rather be sitting at a piano with ya) anyway--And so on...
major scale from the 3rd: phrygian
4th: lydian
5th: mixolydian
6th: aeolian (also called the natural minor)
7th: locrian
so, G mixolydian is G A B C D E F. G is the fifth note of C major, mixolydian is the fifth mode of any major scale. so it's all of the notes of C major, starting on G. i know, hang in there...
again, now yes, it's all C major. again, like i posted before, a lot of the basic applications of modes are pretty vanilla, and boring. G mixolydian sounds fine over a G7 chord, but it's about the least juicy example i can think of as far as scale choice. When we say G mixolydian and talk about the note that makes it "mixolydian," we're referring to it in terms of the G major scale. Why? because all western theory starts there. So we can talk until we're blue in the face about how G mixolydian comes from C major, but when we look at the scale formula for the mixolydian mode, or the interval pattern, we're starting with G.
still there? okay, i'm sorry, like i said, this wouldn't be my favorite way of explaining it, but i really think i can set ya striaght if you give me a chance...
when we talk scale formulas, for example, mixolydian as havng a "b7"--it has nothing to do with that note being a "flat" itself. for example--we're talking relative to the I, and it's all in terms of the major scale. so the flat seventh in the key of E is D.
E major scale: E F# G# A B C# D#
if we "flat" the seventh note of that scale, we get a D.
so "E mixolydian" is E F# G# A B C# D you may also notice that this is the same notes as A major, and indeed, yes, E mixolydian is the fifth mode of the A major scale. how's that for confusing?
check it with the interval pattern for "mixolydian"-- W W H W W H W. it gels.
this all comes from an understanding of the major scale.
"what?" you say?
the major scale is the basis for ALL of this, and if you don't know it inside out yet, i'm telling ya, save yourself a lot of grief and put the modes away. yes, there's cool sounds in there, but there's also a world of confusion if some other things aren't straight...man, i hope that helps and doesn't hurt.
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Well said, Mr.B! Especkley the part about understanding Keys very well before taking on Modes.
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All keys have modes, 7 of them. Originally Posted by Ron Stern
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You've found your answer. Now, get creative with it. Originally Posted by Ron Stern
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Wow. 65 replies to this thread (and I've just added another). I think mr. beaumont's explanation is about as clear as it can get.
And BigDaddyLoveHandles's YouTube link is probably about the clearest example you'll get of a D Dorian mode that doesn't sound at all like its 'parent' C Major scale -- it never resolves to C and doesn't sound like it should.
Anyway. I'll go back to quietly lurking and reading others' posts instead of spreading confusion by replying.
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Originally Posted by timscarey
and here they are:
major-key-chord-chart-and-mode-names
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Originally Posted by Ron Stern
Ron,
With all respect, the only one that can explain those terms is you, because they exist only in your mind.
I will try to put is as simple as I see it. There is only one concept you need to know: a scale.
A scale is s sequence of tones, caracterized by two things:
1- The starting note (same as the ending note), or the root, which is responsible for the name of the scale. A C scale, always starts in C; an F scale always starts in F; etc
2- The intervals between the notes in the scale. For instance, for a major scale, the distances are w w h w w w h (w-whole tone; h=half tone); a mixolydia is w w h w w h w .
This is responsible for the "adjective" you put next to the root name. The adjective can be something like major, minor, augmented, or a mode, like lydian, etc. It always refers to the relationships between the notes.
So, C major scale is C D E F G A B
A C mixolydian is C D E F G A Bb C
This is the terminology musicians are using over the centuries (at least since the ancient greece), and I don't think it is a good idea trying to impose another one (even if it was better).
I believe this will get pretty obvious with time and practice.
Hope it helps,
Joao Pedro
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I still say Bako has the clearest post in this thread - that's all there is to the modes. Using the principles outlined in that post, I have constructed the modes of the Ultrabop scale (it's only three notes, because I'm lazy).
In C, it looks like this:
C, F#, A (1,b5,6) - Ultrabop (or Fragobop mode, if you will. But if you won't, what am I to do? Sigh.) Pretty plain, vanilla, or "normal" sounding, at least for jazz. Use the Ultrabop scale when playing over a major7 if you want a bit of edge, but of course it also works over a dom 7.
Now, let's commence to finding the modes of the Ultrabop Scale. They are:
F#,A,C (1,b3,b5) - Hyptnobop mode, a workhorse altered mode - equally at home over minor 7ths or dom 7ths
and
A,C,F# (1,b3,6) - Lictobop mode, good over dom7th chords - brighter sounding, very bluesy, works well with country too.
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Looking forward to your post on the modes of the two note scale: C, F#
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Goofsus4
You have saved my day!! Still laughing here. Real tears, man, real tears!!!
mango
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I sat down with my guitar but found I'd forgotten how to play it. Originally Posted by timscarey
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I think I agree, if: Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
1. I know what you're talking about
2. I know what I'm talking about
3. You know what I'm talking about
How's that for some modes. In any case, thanks for your help. Perhaps my biggest misunderstanding so far. The same notes/white keys analogy applies to C major -- where else?
Here goes:
C major scale: C D E F G A B C
C major scale, Lydian Mode: F G A B C D E F
The mode does not contain notes outside the scale.
G major scale: G A B C D E F# G
G major scale, Lydian mode: G A B C# D E F# G
The mode contains notes outside the scale.
OK, OK the modes of the C major scale contain no notes outside the scale. I'm guessing, while busily calculating to make sure, this is the only major scale of which this is true. It's a peculiarity of the definitional case, not part of the definition. Apply the definition in the definitional case and you get the peculiarity. Apply the definition in any other case and you don't. That's how you know the peculiarity is not part of the definition. Assuming this is the case, why, oh why do I care about the peculiarity?
Several days now I'm struggling to articulate the process to myself in words, but in the meantime I would be very grateful for any comments you might make on the above, and again thanks for your help.
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p.s. the mode names themselves form a sequence generated by the C major scale, I got that.
If you put the notes of C major in order, in a vertical colum, and write a mode name opposite each one, in an adjacent vertical column, you produce in the second column a sequence of mode names that corresponds to the C major scale. Therefore the sequence of mode names incorporates the major scale step pattern. The sequence of mode names is in the key of C major, you might say. In any case, the sequence of mode names never changes, whereas when you put the sequence of mode names up against scale X is where the fun begins.
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Ron, Originally Posted by Ron Stern
After reading your posts, if I were your teacher, I would suggest you are trying to understand something you don't have the background for, hence the confusion. Imo, you would be best served by a thorough study of the key circle, and get to where you can quote every note in each key around the circle quickly, say under 60 seconds.
While there is nothing magical about being able to do this, you will have a good working knowledge of all the accidentals in each key. From there one can begin a conversation about modes. Imo you are confusing a couple of modal concepts.
G major and G lydian are from different keys, so they are not going to share the same notes. G major (ionian) is in the key of G. G lydian is in the key of D, as lydian describes the 4th of the key. G is the 4th of D, therefore G lydian is in the key of D.
D major: D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#
G lydian: G, A, B, C#, D, E, F#
So, I am suggesting you are getting some of this mixed up because you may not have the requisite knowledge to understand it. Please correct me if I am wrong.
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