Scale, mode, modulated scale

**danjw** · 07-05-2009, 10:15 AM

think you're kind of over complicating things here!!!!
For a start the semantics of what the terms mean is unimportant. just know this:
Cmajor is the same as Gmixolydian
Cmixolydian is the same as Fmajor
A mixolydian mode is a major scale starting from the 5th note.
Fact.
millions of people around the world know this and have done for hundreds of years.
you haven't uncovered a hidden truth. you're just wrong

**bako** · 07-05-2009, 10:58 AM

Mick Goodrick uses the terms derivative and parallel in his book the Advancing Guitarist to describe 2 approaches to generating "modes" in the contemporary usage of the phrase.

Derivative: the modes coming from one scale

Generator Scale: C D E F G A B C

I- CDEFGABC
II- DEFGABCD
III-EFGABCDE
IV-FGABCDEF
V-GABCDEFG
VI-ABCDEFGA
VII-BCDEFGAB

Parallel: Using an interval formula in relation to the Major scale of the same letter.

I- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
II- 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8
III- 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8
IV- 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 8
V-1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 8
VI-1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8
VII-1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 8

In relation to Root C

I- C D E F G A B C
II-C D Eb F G A Bb C
III-C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C
IV-C D E F# G A B C
V- C D E F G A Bb C
VI-C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
VII-C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C

Theory is a description and organizing tool of real world sonic phenomena that is intended to aid our understanding and consequently our ability to execute certain sounds on our instrument. There are right and wrong answers when taking a test in school but out in the world a concept is either helpful or not. No one theory concept is fluid for all situations and for all people.I believe what Ron Stein is describing as a "modulated scale" is related to the parallel approach.

**mr. beaumont** · 07-05-2009, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

sounds like we're complicating the simple here.

yup, i was right.

**Ron Stern** · 07-05-2009, 11:50 AM

Thanks, Bako.

So there are three things (at least), not two.

1. A Scale.

2. A mode which derives from scale, which Mr. Goodrick calls a "derivative mode".

3. Another scale, or if you insist, another mode, which derives from the scale and the derivative mode, which Mr. Goodrick calls a "parallel mode". What is parallel to what? If one may ask.

It's good to call to two things two things and not one. Otherwise you get into something like saying, a pair of shoes has a left shoe and the other left shoe. Oh heck let's just call them both left because they're both shoes.

**Ron Stern** · 07-05-2009, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

yup, i was right.

Are you saving your explanation of the difference between a derivative mode and a parallel mode til later?

**JohnW400** · 07-05-2009, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

yup, i was right.

+1

**m78w** · 07-05-2009, 12:42 PM

I think the easiest way to think of it is the intervals that make up any/all of these items.

C Major Scale = W W H W W W H or C D E F G A B C

C Mixolydian Mode = W W H W W H W or C D E F G A Bb C

Their titles and names are always going to be a matter of semantics but it's the sound that really matters in the end. C Major Scales sound like Cmaj7 chords with a natural 11th, C Mixolydian Modes sound like C7 with a natural 11th. That's what I like to focus on the sound, not the nomenclature.

MW

**mr. beaumont** · 07-05-2009, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by Ron Stern

Are you saving your explanation of the difference between a derivative mode and a parallel mode til later?

semantics is right, as matt suggested. what's the point?

i don't get what's so hard to dig about the concept of "C mixolydian?" that, to me, means mixolydian mode (1 2 3 4 5 6 b7) with C as the root. the names "derivitave mode" and "parallel mode" mean nothing to me. how does that effect the playing, the sound.

i'm sorry to get pissy about this, it's just that, as an educator, the unecessary complication of simple things irritates me. i can see students of mine getting even more hung up on modes than they currently do...and it doesn't have to happen.

**Ron Stern** · 07-05-2009, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

the names "derivitave mode" and "parallel mode" mean nothing to me.

Then how do you know they're wrong? Over-simplified? Under-simplified?

**JohnW400** · 07-05-2009, 03:04 PM

They are terms used similar to the way relative minor and parallel minor are uses.

Am is the relative to C major, C minor is the parallel minor to C major

Quite frankly in jazz they are learning tools that once learned, have outlived their usefullness. Once you know it , move on.

**mr. beaumont** · 07-05-2009, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by Ron Stern

Then how do you know they're wrong? Over-simplified? Under-simplified?

never said it was wrong, i said it was overcomplicating a simple thing.

**happyjack** · 07-05-2009, 07:36 PM

After 30 years on guitar and less than 2 years theory obsessive I find this facinating and think that the major scale is a benchmark that allows us to understand and communicate music theory to each other and not much more ! why does lets say 1 b3 5 1 aeolian sound so good when you descend the root by a semitone 5 steps back to 4 steps then resolve on the 5 step with a dominant app ? I hear this a lot in a wide variety of music ranging from chim chiminy to Janis Joplin Robert Cray and most recently Vanessa Mae doing Classical Gas reggae style on youtube ! This an extremely interesting thread to me though still foggy with it cheers

**bako** · 07-05-2009, 10:36 PM

The sounds we play will always be more important than our theoretical naming systems.
That said though I do like the terms "derivative" and "parallel"
They are 2 extremely simple ideas and methods of generating musical materials.
Derivative: start with a collection of notes (possibly a scale) and see what intervalic combinations and harmonies it contains.
Parallel: the process of applying an intervallic formulas to a major scale of the desired fundamental tone.
(In tonal harmonic theory the major scale is ground zero and the formulas modify it as needed)

I am not familiar with the term "modulated scale" as used by Ron Stern but it seemed to cover the same idea as "parallel".

**RyanM** · 07-06-2009, 01:53 AM

Geez.. this thread is weird...
modes aren't that hard to understand..

parallel modes= derived from the same root note (C major, C mixolydian, etc)

relative modes= derived from the same key (C major, G mixolyian, etc.)

modes ("scales") have associated chords which are built by stacking the mode (scale) in thirds..

chords equal scales(modes). chords imply scales(modes), scales(modes) imply chords, understanding modes is the key to understanding chord extensions..

the term 'mode' and 'scale' are usually used to mean the same thing... but I guess more specifically, a 'mode' is a a scale starting on a specific note of that scale, while the term scale would mean either, the same thing as the term mode, or it could mean the scale as a pitch collection more generally, which implies it would be any of the 7 modes contained within.

modulated scale = a non-existant term

understanding modes is valuable mostly for understanding harmony: chord degrees and their implied scales(modes), extensions, etc.
modes(scales) have little to do with melody and improvisation.

I only skimmed through this thread, sorry if this is no longer relevant.

**mr. beaumont** · 07-06-2009, 11:13 AM

i'm still having problems with this, and i'd like to understand why we need another term in the already fogy area of modes.

i've already stated i don't even like the terms "derivitave" and "parallell" when considering modes. this is because there's already a lot of confusion among beginners concerning modes..."relative" would be the only word i'd like in that context, and that's how i teach modes--as they are relative to a major scale.

the more i roll it around, i'm okay with the idea of "parallel" modes, as i'm okay with saying "parallel minor" for example...but i do worry a bit that this wording could still be confusing to beginners especially...

as for modulated scale, well, that's what i don't get. it just seems to be useless terminology.

to me the easist, surefire way of getting things right is to call them what they are. want somebody to play using the pitch set C D E F G A Bb? call it C mixolydian...i just don't get what's confusing about that.

**derek** · 07-06-2009, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

i'm sorry to get pissy about this, it's just that, as an educator, the unecessary complication of simple things irritates me. i can see students of mine getting even more hung up on modes than they currently do...and it doesn't have to happen.

I so agree with this. I don't know why modes have been presented as this magic fount of music, and why the heck they get discussed in such confusing ways. I find the derivative method to be MUCH less confusing than the parallel approach.

When I discuss that D Dorian is the C major scale starting and ending on D, students seem to glaze over and begin to drool. It is after understanding the intervallic relationships that they can then see the parallel approach easier. YMMV.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 07-06-2009, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by derek

When I discuss that D Dorian is the C major scale starting and ending on D, students seem to glaze over and begin to drool. It is after understanding the intervallic relationships that they can then see the parallel approach easier. YMMV.

I guess I'm a drooler. It's another ball game if you're playing modal Jazz, but if you're talking about playing over a ii-V-I, say:

Dmi7 G7 Cmaj7

I took a class where I was taught:

Dmi7 ... D Dorian (D E F G A B C)
G7 ... G Mixolydian (G A B C D E F)
Cmaj7 ... C Ionian (major) (C D E F G A B)

But it didn't help me at all. Thinking "D Dorian is the C major scale starting and ending on D" would only make me play those scales starting and ending on D. You might as well hypnotize me and implant post-hypnotic suggestions!

Life got better when I thought: it's all in the Key of C. Know your chord tones and guide tones, then get a little fancy with passing notes, neighbor notes, blues notes, substitutions, etc...

But modes? Why bother?

**derek** · 07-06-2009, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

I guess I'm a drooler. It's another ball game if you're playing modal Jazz, but if you're talking about playing over a ii-V-I, say:

Dmi7 G7 Cmaj7

I took a class where I was taught:

Dmi7 ... D Dorian (D E F G A B C)
G7 ... G Mixolydian (G A B C D E F)
Cmaj7 ... C Ionian (major) (C D E F G A B)

But it didn't help me at all. Thinking "D Dorian is the C major scale starting and ending on D" would only make me play those scales starting and ending on D. You might as well hypnotize me and implant post-hypnotic suggestions!

Life got better when I thought: it's all in the Key of C. Know your chord tones and guide tones, then get a little fancy with passing notes, neighbor notes, blues notes, substitutions, etc...

But modes? Why bother?

Yes, you are describing what I am talking about. However, if you think of the derivative way, then Dorian is a natural minor scale (Aeolian) with a natural 6th, and is the brightest of all the minor scales, or Locrian with the b2, b3, b5, b6, b7 is the darkest, then imo, you are getting at something more useful. This way you can take your minor 7 arp, and add these additional tones if you wish for more or less "minorness"

So when playing over a minor, we have this wide variety of minor "colors" from Dorian to Aeolian to Phryigian to Locrian, lightest to darkest. That doesn't take into account Melodic Minor, or Harmonic Minor and their modes of course.

In the end, it is really whatever works for you and makes the most sense, but as stated above by many, modal theory seems unnecessarily confusing.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 07-06-2009, 03:12 PM

I think we're agreeing for the most part, too. It's good to have a toolbox full of ideas, and modes fit in there, but they are not a primary tool for me.

Take your Dorian-vs-Aeolian comment. When playing Dmi7-G7-Cmaj7, the difference between D Dorian and D Aeolian is the B natural versus Bb. Which would I play over Dmi7? I think I'd use my ears. Sometimes I lump Dmi7 and G7 together into "G dominant" so the Bb would sound like a flat third blues note of G7.

Another take would be as a neighbour note: if I am playing a descending line or the upper neighbour of A, the Bb sounds good to me:

C Bb A ... or ... A Bb A

But if I am playing an ascending line or a lower neighbour of C, the B nat sounds good:

A B nat C ... or C B nat C

With this mind set, I'm not thinking "darker" or "lighter" minor, but note tension and resolution. But there's lots of ways of blowin'

Another example: suppose the Dmi7 is hanging around for a few beats, or I can play faster than I really can... and I play the pattern against it:

D-B?-C-D C-A-B?-C B?-G-A-B? A-F-G-A

Should B? be Bb or Bnat? Or a mix, like:

D-B-C-D C-A-B-C Bb-G-A-Bb A-F-G-A

In this setting, modal thinking may pop up more, because I've got more time to think!

**derek** · 07-06-2009, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

I think we're agreeing for the most part, too. It's good to have a toolbox full of ideas, and modes fit in there, but they are not a primary tool for me.

Take your Dorian-vs-Aeolian comment. When playing Dmi7-G7-Cmaj7, the difference between D Dorian and D Aeolian is the B natural versus Bb. Which would I play over Dmi7? I think I'd use my ears. Sometimes I lump Dmi7 and G7 together into "G domimant" so the Bb would sound like a flat third blues note of G7.

Another take would be as a neighbour note: if I am playing a descending line or the upper neighbour of A, the Bb sounds good to me:

C Bb A ... or ... A Bb A

But if I am playing an ascending line or a lower neighbour of C, the B nat sounds good:

A B nat C ... or C B nat C

With this mind set, I'm not thinking "darker" or "lighter" minor, but note tension and resolution. But there's lots of ways of blowin'

I think we agree also. Modes like anything else are another tool for the toolbox. Your mention of addressing D-7 and G7 by just playing off the G7 is reminescent of Joe Pass' approach, whereas Martino plays the ii V off the minor and will ignore the dominant at times.

As you say, "there's lots of ways of blowin'". If we all played the same stuff, it would get pretty boring pretty quickly.

**mr. beaumont** · 07-06-2009, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

I took a class where I was taught:

Dmi7 ... D Dorian (D E F G A B C)
G7 ... G Mixolydian (G A B C D E F)
Cmaj7 ... C Ionian (major) (C D E F G A B)

?

oh man, tell me they didn't really waste your time like that? people got paid to teach that? i'm sorry that happened to you--you're dead on--that's useless and no help whatsoever.

there's a lot of good sounds in the modes, but it's certainly not in that vanilla context. this is why, as always, i tell my students "don't even talk to me about modes until you have the major scale licked, i mean DOWN COLD all over the neck. i don't wanna hear about 'em."

**Ron Stern** · 07-06-2009, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by JohnW400

They are terms used similar to the way relative minor and parallel minor are uses.

How are they used when applied to modes?

**Ron Stern** · 07-06-2009, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

i don't get what's so hard to dig about the concept of "C mixolydian?" that, to me, means mixolydian mode (1 2 3 4 5 6 b7) with C as the root.

I only know what they tell me.

The seven modes of C major all contain the same notes; they just start and end on a different pitch.

Jeff Schroedl, Jazz Guitar (2003) Hal Leonard Corporation.

If C Ionian has no B7, how does C Mixloydian?

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 07-06-2009, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by Ron Stern

If C Ionian has no B7, how does C Mixloydian?

Huh? (I assume you meant flat-7th.)

The difference between C Ionian (=major) and C Mixloydian is precisely the 7th: major seventh versus minor seventh, B natural versus B flat.

**Goofsus4** · 07-06-2009, 05:19 PM

Mmm, mmm, mmmph. I LOVE me a good mode thread.

This was posted on the 4th and it already has 47 or so replies.

I still say just treat each mode as a scale with it's own intervallic formula and be done with it. All the questions people pose about the modes is resolved instantly once you go back and look at Bako's post and see the intervals each mode represents.

I think the worst explanation of the modes ever is the one that starts with "it's just the major scale." No it's not. It's 7 different scales, all with a different sound. Yes, they are derived from the major scale but once that derivation is done the modes are as far from the major scale as you can get (except Ionian). It's like saying that "it's all just carbon" when talking about earth-based life forms or something.