The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    How was Joe Pass able to play so good without knowing much theory?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    what makes you think Pass didn't know "much" theory? How much theory is "not much" or "a lot"? How much "theory" does the most theory-minded jazz musician know?

    This kind of question always puzzles me. A bunch of people have written "jazz theory" books, and what you need to know for many styles of jazz can be explained in a dozen pages or less. And it is easier than 7th grade math, or other topics that nobody is surprised at when at 12 year old learns it.

    What is hard about being a jazz musician is not "theory". What *is* a challenge is
    gaining enough mastery of the "theory" to be able to use it in creative improvisation: this can take years but not because its hard to understand, but to execute. Every couch potato can understand football, very few can play it. It's the same thing.

    Some music styles have very little "intellectual" content, and hence don't require any command of theory. Jazz needs a little

    In any case, I'm sure Pass knew a decent amount of the structure of music, you can tell just by listening.

  4. #3
    You're basically talking about the difference between "knowing" something and "knowing what it's called". It's a good distinction to understand.

    Theory is to music what grammar is to language and writing. As important as grammar is, the truth is that most people who are really good with grammar and writing had excellent examples of speech from their parents and did a lot of reading coming up. Most grammatical rules are INFERRED from usage : speech , writing Etc., much more so than they are learned in the class. It's more just putting labels on things you already "know".

    I was always good at grammar , but I basically always "knew" it, because I had good examples of speech growing up and read a lot. Artists like Joe Pass or West Montgomery "knew" more grammar than most. Maybe they didn't know it was called a Whatever, just like you might not know that something was called a prepositional phrase, to continue with the language analogy, But you know prepositional phrases whether you know what they're called or not , if you know how to speak properly.

    We may continue to evolve what we call things , but most of it is after-the-fact labeling of what's already been played. At a certain point theoretical ideas extrapolated from various sources can inform actual new forms of composition etc., but mostly theory is about just having ways of talking about music, a subject which otherwise might be very abstract.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 05-28-2016 at 10:55 AM.

  5. #4

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    Though I like the two long answers above and agree with them ...

    the short answer is "ear"

  6. #5

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    So many great musicians were/are unschooled. God gave them the gift of what to do and how to do it.

    For so many of us it will not matter who who we study under or for how long.

    and that is why we buy recordings.

  7. #6
    Do you guys find that students tend to get more into memorizing and talking about theory than actually applying those concepts? Instead of more practicing ear training and transcribing? I'm assuming for Joe Pass.. The theory came "after" the playing?

  8. #7
    Was it a gift? Or was their approach (by ear) better than a academic approach? When you first learned how to walk.. You didn't read up on how to walk. You just did it all the time. I hope this makes sense.

  9. #8
    I'd say that most of learning, in any area of life, is done mostly at a very immersive level. No thinking, just taking things in , maybe just repeating by rote. At certain points though, I believe that you're missing out on a lot if you don't use the human minds ability to deal in abstraction, to analyze the whole, see patterns etc. I mean we don't tell kids "don't worry with learning to read , just listen to people talking. you'll get all you ever need. "

    Personally, I'm as distrustful of "no theory" people as "all theory" people.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
    Was it a gift? Or was their approach (by ear) better than a academic approach? When you first learned how to walk.. You didn't read up on how to walk. You just did it all the time. I hope this makes sense.
    There's a legend about Joe Pass's father forcing him to learn tunes in his room for five hours a day when he was in elementary school.

    Gift? Perhaps not.

    The academic approach should include ear training that corresponds to the theory.

  11. #10

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    The legend about Joe's father is more than a little exaggerated. I knew Joe, took some lessons from him, hung out with him. He knew theory quite well, but in his own way. Instead of using terms like "jazz melodic minor" or any other jargon, he broke things down to their easily-understood elements. I learned a ton of theory from him in an hour, all in plain English. He knew his stuff very well.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    The legend about Joe's father is more than a little exaggerated. I knew Joe, took some lessons from him, hung out with him. He knew theory quite well, but in his own way. Instead of using terms like "jazz melodic minor" or any other jargon, he broke things down to their easily-understood elements. I learned a ton of theory from him in an hour, all in plain English. He knew his stuff very well.
    I figured that might be the case ... .... point being that he practiced his ass off all the time for a long time. Gift? nah. Bought and paid for.

  13. #12

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    I think our "gifts" as adults are strongly determined by what we were doing with our brains and bodies when our neural networks were developing. I'd guess nearly all top-tier musicians had a high level of musical activity at an early age. I feel that's a stronger factor than genetic "gifts". I think academic work builds on that base but can't replace it. Not that one shouldn't try to start music later in life, but don't expect as rapid progress. I think the strongest factor in development as a musician is a lifetime love, enthusiasm and drive for music, both listening and playing.

    (BTW, I'm not a teacher and have attended no music institutions.)
    Last edited by KirkP; 05-28-2016 at 03:27 PM.

  14. #13

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    Joe Pass was fortunate in that his playing was not stilted by too much "jazz education".

  15. #14

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    if you don't have the good fortune to be immersed in a jazz world then you may be unfortunate enough to have to use descriptions of the music (theory) to learn how to play the music

    i'm not sure it is even possible to learn this way

    but what choice does a player have if they don't have a jazz world to be immersed in?

  16. #15

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    The important thing to take away here is you can play a lot of jazz with little or no "theory."

    Mind you, guitar players usually call a bunch of stuff "theory" that isn't.

  17. #16

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    I don't find Joe Pass to be deficient in a knowledge of theory. His two books, Joe Pass Guitar Method and Joe Pass Guitar Style both distill a massive amount of theory into some very helpful and succinct explanations and exercise. He studied a bit of Carcassi (I think) or some other classical method early on.

    His playing was not theory driven or theory laden, but he could take a line he'd played and explain to you the theory behind it and why it fit the chord that was being played, and how it related to the melody of the tune. That's theory. the fact that the lines were wonderful, beautiful, and often surprising was... the gift.

    The problem with Joe Pass' statements about things is that he loved to pull your leg, and he also didn't always particularly feel like explaining himself.

  18. #17
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    but what choice does a player have if they don't have a jazz world to be immersed in?
    Er... call forth and create one by means of an existential act of self self-expression?

  19. #18

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    Before colleges and universities began offering jazz programs, aspiring jazz musicians learned to play by going to jam sessions to watch and listen to older players. They learned solos from recordings. Older musicians would mentor younger musicians. Sometimes they had a teacher.

    The most frequently asked question was "What was that lick you played in.....?" not "Why did you play that lick....?"

    When universities began offering jazz programs they had to have something to sell, so they sold the idea that that learning theory was the key to becoming a great musician. From the 1970s until today, this idea has dominated all others.

    Music theory has always been an ex post facto attempt to try to explain or understand was has happened before.

    Every great musician that I've ever met has always put playing first. Some of them studied theory formally at some point in their lives, others learned on the bandstand from older musicians. What they all had in common was that they learned to play first.

    For every great name in jazz or classical or any other music that we remember and revere, Charlie Christian, Django Reinhardt, Wes Montgomery, Joe Pass, Andres Segovia, Lester Young, Charlie Parker, Itzhak Perlman, Dizzy Gillespie, Jimmy Raney, Jim Hall, the primary goal was to be able to play. Again, the primary goal was to Play The Music.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    Er... call forth and create one by means of an existential act of self self-expression?
    You just went totally Merleau Ponty on me. No idea what that means.

  21. #20

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    The more I dig into older Jazz musicians the answer is learn to play first using your ear and tunes, later learn some theory to put labels on things. That is how Joe Pass learned and many others music first scholastic stuff later. They learned by doing and listening.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    I don't find Joe Pass to be deficient in a knowledge of theory. His two books, Joe Pass Guitar Method and Joe Pass Guitar Style both distill a massive amount of theory into some very helpful and succinct explanations and exercise. He studied a bit of Carcassi (I think) or some other classical method early on.

    His playing was not theory driven or theory laden, but he could take a line he'd played and explain to you the theory behind it and why it fit the chord that was being played, and how it related to the melody of the tune. That's theory. the fact that the lines were wonderful, beautiful, and often surprising was... the gift.

    The problem with Joe Pass' statements about things is that he loved to pull your leg, and he also didn't always particularly feel like explaining himself.

    I think this is important. Joe's favorite guitarist was Django but Joe said he never transcribed any of Django's playing. He seemed much less lick-y than Django (and Charlie and Wes, the other two giants of jazz guitar in Joe's estimation) and more, well, formulaic. (To some, "formulaic" is a bad word but not to me.) The exercises in "Joe Pass Guitar Style" sharpen one's ear, work to avoid lick-y playing (-Joe wrote etudes in unbroken eighth notes to avoid licks and encouraged students to do the same), and, well, show certain formulae of moving chords (and substitute chords) around. That's a giant part of what Joe did. And Joe was a big one for saying that improvisation is NOT just making it up off the top of your head. He knew what he was doing. Inside and out.

    As pkirk said above, the level of theory we are talking about is not that difficult. One may find it boring and not want to learn it, of course, but it's not that complicated.

  23. #22

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    A couple of days ago an interviewer asked a fairly young jazz pro how his study at U of North Texas influenced his playing. He said most of all it gave him a chance to be around great musicians from all over the world. He didn't mention theory or technique.

  24. #23

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    bobsguitars09 - Haha ain't that the question.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    I think this is important. Joe's favorite guitarist was Django but Joe said he never transcribed any of Django's playing. He seemed much less lick-y than Django (and Charlie and Wes, the other two giants of jazz guitar in Joe's estimation) and more, well, formulaic. (To some, "formulaic" is a bad word but not to me.) The exercises in "Joe Pass Guitar Style" sharpen one's ear, work to avoid lick-y playing (-Joe wrote etudes in unbroken eighth notes to avoid licks and encouraged students to do the same), and, well, show certain formulae of moving chords (and substitute chords) around. That's a giant part of what Joe did. And Joe was a big one for saying that improvisation is NOT just making it up off the top of your head. He knew what he was doing. Inside and out.

    As pkirk said above, the level of theory we are talking about is not that difficult. One may find it boring and not want to learn it, of course, but it's not that complicated.
    Is Django licky? I never felt so. Modern Gypsy Jazz guitar players can be licky. Django, not really. Rarely repeats himself in the solos I have studied, maybe just the odd run.

    Charlie Christian is very licky, but varies his licks so much that he never gets old.

    Anyway, Joe Pass? Admire his playing, but haven't felt compelled to study it in depth yet.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by monk
    Before colleges and universities began offering jazz programs, aspiring jazz musicians learned to play by going to jam sessions to watch and listen to older players. They learned solos from recordings. Older musicians would mentor younger musicians. Sometimes they had a teacher.

    The most frequently asked question was "What was that lick you played in.....?" not "Why did you play that lick....?"

    When universities began offering jazz programs they had to have something to sell, so they sold the idea that that learning theory was the key to becoming a great musician. From the 1970s until today, this idea has dominated all others.

    Music theory has always been an ex post facto attempt to try to explain or understand was has happened before.

    Every great musician that I've ever met has always put playing first. Some of them studied theory formally at some point in their lives, others learned on the bandstand from older musicians. What they all had in common was that they learned to play first.

    For every great name in jazz or classical or any other music that we remember and revere, Charlie Christian, Django Reinhardt, Wes Montgomery, Joe Pass, Andres Segovia, Lester Young, Charlie Parker, Itzhak Perlman, Dizzy Gillespie, Jimmy Raney, Jim Hall, the primary goal was to be able to play. Again, the primary goal was to Play The Music.
    Thank you for once again making a point I would try to make clearly and succinctly.

    Problem today - too much college, not enough bandstand. Everyone says it. Not the fault of the educators.