another name for a 7b9 chord?

[Jazzarian]

C7b9 C E G Bb Db


Take way the root and it sure looks diminished to me :}

[mr. beaumont]

absolutely.

[kaige]

Let's see if I have this right. Without the root C we have E G Bb Db which can be E dim, G dim, Bb dim or Db dim.
Does it not follow that if I play a 4 note diminished chord I can designate any one of those notes as a b9 and have a 7b9 without the root? Seems to work.
The reason I ask is because I am quite comfortable accessing diminished chords and to have it serve as a 7b9 is a bonus.
Also easy to move the bb7 to a b7 and have a m7b5.

[Jazzarian]

Does it not follow that if I play a 4 note diminished chord I can designate any one of those notes as a b9 and have a 7b9 without the root? Seems to work.
The reason I ask is because I am quite comfortable accessing diminished chords and to have it serve as a 7b9 is a bonus.

That is indeed correct.

You'll see many a 7b9 in the Real Book. It's easiest to zero in on the b9 aspect, in terms of a "name".

[kaige]

Thanks. A few lights went on. I use the half-whole scale often. If I think of one of the notes ( in the diminished chord) as an unrooted flat 9 then the other notes are chord tones. Move the grip a half step down and it is a rooted diminish. So back and forth I go, tension and release.
Me and a lot of other folks are happiest if I think less and play more and this will help.

[jonasfixe]

I´m collecting chord equivalences and this is the part of the table from 7b9 chord:

7 b9:
1 3 5 b7 b9
C E G Bb Db

dim7 b13:
1 b3 b5 b6 bb7
E G Bb C Db

dim7:
1 b3 b5 bb7
G Bb Db E

[Jazzaluk]

I´m collecting chord equivalences and this is the part of the table from 7b9 chord:

7 b9:
1 3 5 b7 b9
C E G Bb Db

dim7 b13:
1 b3 b5 b6 bb7
E G Bb C Db

dim7:
1 b3 b5 bb7
G Bb Db E

Pat Martino's book 'The Nature of Guitar" delivers a very eloquent way of looking at diminished chords and how they relate to Dominant 7th.

Take any diminished 7th chord (a stack of minor 3rds) and pick one note and lower it by a semi-tone. The result will be a Dominant 7th chord with the root of the note that was lowered.

For example:
take G#dim = G#, B, D, F
Lower G# to G gives G,B,D,F = G7th
Lower B to Bb gives G#,Bb,D,F = Bb7th
Lower D to Db gives G# (Ab),B, Dd,F = Db7th
Lower F to E gives G#,B,D,E = E7th

If you apply this to one position on the guitar and analyse the resulting chord forms you will see that each 7th chord represents a unique inversionn that basically conforms to one of the five guitar positions in the CAGED system.


G#dim.....G7....Db7...Bb7...E7
--4-------3-----4-----4-----4--
--3-------3-----2-----3-----3--
--4-------4-----4-----3-----4--
--3-------3-----3-----3-----2--
--------------------------------
--------------------------------


As you probably already know, the diminshed chord form is symetric on the neck which means that if the same chord form is moved up in minor third intervals (3 frets), all the notes of the diminished chord are repeated (in a new inversion). So, using this characteristic, it is possible to quickly construct new inversions of these same 7th chords by moving diminished chord form 3 frets and applying the same Martino rule. Move the form again and more inversions are revealed. This will work for any of your favourite diminished chord forms.

Of course this is not music but merely another piece of the puzzle that may help open up the neck a bit.

[jonasfixe]

Yes, very interesting undeed.
By the way, curiously, if we raise any note a half step we get the half diminished chord (m7 b5 - hd):


G#dim......Bhd....Dhd....Fhd...Ahd
--4-------5-----4-----4-----4--
--3-------3-----3-----4-----3--
--4-------4-----4-----4-----5--
--3-------3-----4-----3-----3--
--------------------------------
--------------------------------


I think this chord may be used:
-In major tonalities, as the 7th degree: an extention/substitution of the dominant (V):
G B D F -> B D F A

-in minor tonalities, as the 2nd degree: preparation or substitution of the dominant:
D F Ab C -> G B D F
Ab is the b9 of the dominant, and C is the 11th, so the II m 7 b5 is basically a DOM 7b9)

Pat Martino's book 'The Nature of Guitar" delivers a very eloquent way of looking at diminished chords and how they relate to Dominant 7th.

Take any diminished 7th chord (a stack of minor 3rds) and pick one note and lower it by a semi-tone. The result will be a Dominant 7th chord with the root of the note that was lowered.

For example:
take G#dim = G#, B, D, F
Lower G# to G gives G,B,D,F = G7th
Lower B to Bb gives G#,Bb,D,F = Bb7th
Lower D to Db gives G# (Ab),B, Dd,F = Db7th
Lower F to E gives G#,B,D,E = E7th

If you apply this to one position on the guitar and analyse the resulting chord forms you will see that each 7th chord represents a unique inversionn that basically conforms to one of the five guitar positions in the CAGED system.


G#dim.....G7....Db7...Bb7...E7
--4-------3-----4-----4-----4--
--3-------3-----2-----3-----3--
--4-------4-----4-----3-----4--
--3-------3-----3-----3-----2--
--------------------------------
--------------------------------


As you probably already know, the diminshed chord form is symetric on the neck which means that if the same chord form is moved up in minor third intervals (3 frets), all the notes of the diminished chord are repeated (in a new inversion). So, using this characteristic, it is possible to quickly construct new inversions of these same 7th chords by moving diminished chord form 3 frets and applying the same Martino rule. Move the form again and more inversions are revealed. This will work for any of your favourite diminished chord forms.

Of course this is not music but merely another piece of the puzzle that may help open up the neck a bit.

[kaige]

As the poet said "to see the world in a grain of sand"...
Moving the grip up or down by minor 3rds is tres handy and I use that a lot.
Moving individual notes down a semi-tone is a new world. I'll be trying that and also moving individual notes up a semi-tone. Whole new world to explore because of a 7b9.

[Jazzaluk]

jonasfixe and Kaige...you picked up on that pretty quick.

It is a great tool to find pivot points to new keys. If you dig into the Pat Martino's approach a bit more you will find a similar tool to generate minor and major triads from the symetric augmented triad which pretty much completes the puzzle.

I'm not a big fan of Pat Martino's music, but I find he is an amazing human being and his concept is pure genius.

[kaige]

Would you slap a bit of paint on 'symetric augmented triad?

[Jazzaluk]

Kaige

Pat Martino has put his book on his website:

Pat Martino

Just click on the link "the Nature of Guitar" and you can get everything you need from the source (explained better than I could hope)

I certainly don't profess to fully understand how Pat uses his system but if you have any questions I would be happy to give you my perspective and share some ideas on how to apply it to create voice leading in chord melodies.

[kaige]

Thanks Jazzaluk.
I backtracked to your post #7 and then could figure out what 'symetric augmented triad' meant. I feel like that guy in Moliere who exclaims
"you mean I've been speaking prose all this time and didn't know it?"
I've been playing symetric augmented triads for awhile and never knew it.
I'll check out that website and in the meantime I have more than enough to chew on.

[Adelaarsvaren]

This thread opened some doors for me - thanks gentlemen!

[sparog]

i just started to get melt with this mind waving jazz. any idea to get my bluesminded familiar with those jazz. i mean, how to impro over or to start with

[derek]

i just started to get melt with this mind waving jazz. any idea to get my bluesminded familiar with those jazz. i mean, how to impro over or to start with

You might start with Grant Green, or Robben Ford, two guys who walk in both worlds. Grant was considered a jazz player who used the blues a ton.

Robben is a blues player who played for Miles and with the YellowJackets for a while, but now is mosty a blues player, but uses diminished ideas all the time. His video "Blues and Beyond" explains his mixing of mixolydian, minor/major pent, pick up notes, and diminished scales. Very useful video for getting some of these sounds going. Good luck

[Jazzarian]

You might start with Grant Green, or Robben Ford, two guys who walk in both worlds. Grant was considered a jazz player who used the blues a ton.

Robben is a blues player who played for Miles and with the YellowJackets for a while, but now is mosty a blues player, but uses diminished ideas all the time. His video "Blues and Beyond" explains his mixing of mixolydian, minor/major pent, pick up notes, and diminished scales. Very useful video for getting some of these sounds going. Good luck

Both Larry Carlton and Robben Ford have some excellent "method" books and videos.


I saw them both in concert once, in Philly. Robben was with David Sanborn, Carlton with his own band. Robben did a great job on "Help the Poor" with that group. A most excellent double bill indeed.

[DMatthewsBand07]

The holy grail of jazz theory. There's definitely more complicated and cooler stuff out there, but understanding diminished chords and 7b9 chords is one of the most useful things you'll ever stumble across. Opens up a whole new possibility for improvising over a dominant chord (using a diminished scale built off of any of the chord tones, except the root). And it makes analyzing progressions a whole helluva lot easier. I used to see some weird diminished chord sittin out in the middle of nowhere and get so confused. They love to throw those V7b9 chords in there to resolve right to their I, but they always call them some whacked out dimished chord, just to confuse everyone. Good stuff.

[m78w]

Hey All,
Great stuff in this post. If you want to take this theory one step further you can take the Kurt Rosenwinkel approach. This is where you treat any chord as a diminished chord. So for example:

If you have an F7 chord, say the first four bars of the blues like so:

F7/F7/F7/F7

you could play any 7th chord built out of the Fdim7 family, so F7 Ab7 B7 D7.

So the first four bars of the blues could them become.

F7/Ab7/B7/D7

or

F7/D7/B7/Ab7

or any combination of some or all of those four chords you like.

This substitution approach can be applied to any chord type, so if you have a Cmaj7 chord, you can play Cmaj7, Ebmaj7, Gbmaj7 and Amaj7.

It's a little hard to squeeze this in on short changes, or at quick tempos, unless you're Kurt! But it works good on blues and modal tunes with longer changes, like So What for example. Dm7 becomes Dm7 Fm7 Abm7 Bm7 and Ebm7 becomes Ebm7 Gbm7 Am7 Cm7.

This might sound kind of advanced so a good way to start playing with these subs is just take two and go between them. A good start is playing F7 and B7, interchanging at will, over the first four bars of a F blues. You can hear this in Woddy Shaw, Jake Langley and Joey Defrancesco's playing for example.

Give it a shot, if anyone wants to see written examples of this give me an email and I'll gladly send you some examples.

m78w@yahoo.ca
MW

[DMatthewsBand07]

That's the 'Trane Changes. Coltrane uses that all over the place the

|C Fm Bb7|Eb Abm Db7|Gb Bm E7|A Dm G7| thing

he uses it in Giant Steps and I think Countdown and Central Park West.

[m78w]

The Trane thing is a little different but the same principle. Where Kurt divides the octave into four equal parts, C Eb Gb A, Trane would base his subs on the Augmneted triad, dividing the octave into 3 equal parts, C E G#.

Like in Giant Steps Trane plays the three keys based off of the Eb aug triad, Eb, G and B.

Same thinking but a bit of a twist by each player.
MW

[ancontreras]

Hey All,
Great stuff in this post. If you want to take this theory one step further you can take the Kurt Rosenwinkel approach. This is where you treat any chord as a diminished chord.MW

Great post man! this is the first time I read a very clear clue to understanding Kurt style! I love his music and I´ve been wondering how his mind work while improvising those original ideas and phrasing. Now I have at least a point of reference to start understanding what I transcribe! Thanks a lot Mathew!.
By the way, do you know how to deep on this Kurt approach?
Best wishes. Antonio.

[m78w]

Hey Antonio,

Glad the info was helpful. If you are looking for exercises to start working on this kurt approach try this, it's an exercise I learned from him at a master class.

1) Pick a chord, let's say Cmaj7.

2) start on the lowest possible note of that chord, E the open 6th string, and play 4 notes per string.

3) Start with quarter notes and switch chords each time you switch strings.

So like this;

6th: E F G A Cmaj7

5th: Bb C D Eb Ebmaj7

4th: F Gb Ab Bb Gbmaj7

3rd: B C# D E Amaj7

2nd: F G A B Cmaj7

1st: C D Eb F Ebma7, then Gb Ab Bb B Gbmaj7

Then turn around and go backwards, if you want a written example of this just email me at m78w@yahoo.ca.

MW

[derek]

I learned that minor third sub thing this summer at NGW Jazz Summit. The 2nd minor third winds up being the tritone. Nice trick, but I haven't worked it into my playing yet.

[ancontreras]

Actually all 4 chords in a minor third substitution are close related to each other: let´s considering G7 as the primary dominant (we are in C of course), in this case, Bb7 is bVII (bVII7 to I, also called back door progression, and you can see that as modal interchange chord, from his related IIm7, Fm7, the subdominant minor chord (IVm7 in C). Db7 is the subV7 chod, and finally, E7 is V/VI7, this means also the V7 of A minor, the "parental" key (the key that share key signature with C, I don´t know if "parental" is the word in English, excuse me).