how much practice to allocate to min ii-V-i

**princeplanet** · 06-10-2009, 11:31 AM

Like many of you, I'm slowly makin' my way through as many maj 2-5-1's as I know of, but wondering how important 2-5-1 in minor is, I mean relatively. In the jazz lexicon, do you come across it, say, 3 times less often then the major variants? I'm realising that life's just too short to practice absolutely everything with equal weighting.....

**FatJeff** · 06-10-2009, 11:45 AM

4:1 ratio seems about right to me. But what the hell do I know? :-0

**deadcow** · 06-10-2009, 12:33 PM

i hope i;m not making a complete fool of myself but i recently discovered that playing a minor 251 progression is the same thing as playing a major one.since all the notes in the melodic minor scale are the same as the notes in the major scale and since all the modes come one after the other (unless you tune your guitar otherwise) you will be able to play minor and major using the same 5 shapes. if you make a G ionian arpeggio but go down a step in the circle of modes you will have a G aeolian arpeggio.so the first arp is a Gmaj7 and the next one will be Gmin7. if you know the min7 maj7 dom7 etc (or know none of them and just know and "feel" the notes on the fretboard) you can transpose maj to min in one second or less. here it is :
http://www.pego.be/index.php?option=...sk=view&id=204
if i;m wrong please tell me to erase this post.

**John Curran** · 06-10-2009, 12:56 PM

For me personally, I prefer minor ii-V's. I think they're more colorful, ( in general I think minor keys are more colorful ). I will sometimes play a minor ii-v lick over a normal ii-v situation just to blue it up a little.

FWIW

john

**princeplanet** · 06-10-2009, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by deadcow

i hope i;m not making a complete fool of myself but i recently discovered that playing a minor 251 progression is the same thing as playing a major one.since all the notes in the melodic minor scale are the same as the notes in the major scale and since all the modes come one after the other (unless you tune your guitar otherwise) you will be able to play minor and major using the same 5 shapes. if you make a G ionian arpeggio but go down a step in the circle of modes you will have a G aeolian arpeggio.so the first arp is a Gmaj7 and the next one will be Gmin7. if you know the min7 maj7 dom7 etc (or know none of them and just know and "feel" the notes on the fretboard) you can transpose maj to min in one second or less. here it is :
http://www.pego.be/index.php?option=...sk=view&id=204
if i;m wrong please tell me to erase this post.

Hey Deadcow, the ii chord in minor is actually iim7b5, the V chord is generally treated as an altered Dom and the "i" can also be m6 which points to Dorian. I like to practice combining arps and scales/modes and so the minor ii-V needs new material not found in maj ii-V's. Targeting guide tones with these is tricky as well, I've decided I like targeting the b5 in place of the 3 or 7 in the half dim chord. For the V I'm getting used to the alt scale descending from the targeted 3rd. Doing all keys in the one position essentially rotating the 5 CAGED patterns. It's a little harder to pre hear at first, but I'm getting to like it. Think I'll start using the alt scale as part of the maj ii-V's, mixolydian is starting to sound too obvious....

ps. the melodic minor (jazz minor) is like ionian b3 so is quite different from the major derivations, getting to know it's modes is quite a challenge, it's unbelievable how much difference that single alteration makes, it opens up another universe!

**timscarey** · 06-10-2009, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Like many of you, I'm slowly makin' my through as many maj 2-5-1's as I know of, but wondering how important 2-5-1 in minor is, I mean relatively. In the jazz lexicon, do you come across it, say, 3 times less often then the major variants? I'm realising that life's just too short to practice absolutely everything with equal weighting.....

Just think of it as practicing the "back end" of the key. Bmb5 - Ealt - Amin is in C maj so practice that when you practice your ii - V to C maj.

Dm - G7- CMaj - Fmaj - Bm7b5 - Ealt - Amin

ii - V - I - IV - vii - iii - vi

the iii chord is altered to create a resolution to the vi (minor ii-V-I )

Widen the scope and practice the whole key. minor ii - V's are super common.

**deadcow** · 06-11-2009, 02:25 AM

i'm sorry.i was thinking that just by moving the third and sometimes the seventh i can go into minor and respect the standard.since i don;t understand the half diminished chords i can't really begin a polemic about this.it seems to me however that i can play the notes in the major/melodic minor and still get a 7/b5 or any other chord or arpeggio just by moving the intervals.it's hard and if i would do this all over the guitar it would be a different scale.but if i know how to apply intervals to locrian for example i should be able to do it.i'm trying to realate everything to the major scale.there are hundereds of modes and specific scales out there.arabic...hungarian gypsy.etc.if i were to learn each and every one of them like this i would go mad.u have to be a genious or practice every day for 8 hours for the rest of your life to get them.not play them.i'm going to come back to this post when i understand minor standard.by the end of the week.i searched a couple of minor 251-s and i know i can relate to maj scale so please don;t be angry.i'll have a response in a couple of days.

**princeplanet** · 06-11-2009, 03:30 AM

Deadcow, you're on the right track, as Timscary pointed out, 2-5-1-in minor is like 7-3-6 in major, except that the 3 chord will now contain a raised 3rd (g#), the leading note that makes harmonic and melodic minor different from natural minor. This creates different chords in the harmonised scale (eg iim7b5, V7b9 etc).

You can't learn all this stuff in a day..... well I can't anyway

**voelker** · 06-17-2009, 05:42 AM

Deadcow, your talking about applying a relative major/minor idea. i often choose to play the relative minor on a major chord anyway. so like timscarey mentioned, a 2,5,1 in C is closely related to a minor 2,5,1 in Am. (2)Dm6=Bm7b5 (5)G6=Em7 (1)C6=Am7. the G# just adds the melodic minor flavor to the Am (A-maj7) and makes Em (Ealt) a true dom V chord to supply some tension, E Phrygian, the iii of C major already has a b9, b3, b13 giving it the alt flavor. Gsusb9=Ealt in this case

**monk** · 06-18-2009, 11:36 AM

Hello folks,
I'm new here and hope no one minds if I join this conversation. I noticed some comments were made regarding the Melodic Minor as well as Dorian.

However, the minor ii7-V7-i is derived from the Harmonic Minor. The harmonic minor scale was created by adding a leading tone to the natural minor scale to provide an authentic cadence for minor harmony.

In Cm, the chords would be Dm7b5-G7b9-Cm. I hope this is helpful.

Regards,
monk

**princeplanet** · 06-18-2009, 11:50 AM

Your most welcome. The melodic minor bit comes in when playing against the V7b9 chord. It's kinda standard to play an Alt scale against this which is derived the lydian dom a tritone away, or another way to think of it, a melodic minor scale starting a half step up from the root of the alt dom chord. This scale (super locrian) just happens to contain the main chord tones plus the altered 5 and altered 9 tensions...

**monk** · 06-18-2009, 02:29 PM

While the Melodic Minor can be a useful improvisational tool in regard to dominant seventh chords and their alterations, the Melodic Minor scale is not the source of the minor "two-five".

Harmonising the M.M. scale yields the following chords:
Cm(Maj7) Dm7 EbMaj7(#5) F7 G7 Am7b5 Bm7b5. You would have to extend the V7 to the b13 before you encountered an altered tone.

Please note that the ii7-V7 is Dm7-G7, the same as in major.

The Harmonic Minor scale yields:
Cm(Maj7) Dm7b5 EbMaj7(#5) Fm7 G7 AbMaj7 Bdim7. Extending the V7 by a third will produce a V7b9.

This produces Dm7b5-G7b9, the minor "two-five".

Current teaching trends use ALT as a blanket term to describe any and all of the possible alterations to a dominant chord.

I believe it's better to know and understand the major and minor from the most basic level before engaging in Super Locrian and Lydian Dominant superimposition. But that's just my opinion.

Regards,
monk

**RyanM** · 06-18-2009, 03:00 PM

^Yeah, he's right.
There are a lot of ways to play over a minor ii-V; m.m. up a whole step/ up a half-step, etc. is just one approach.
Really, over a minor ii-V-i, I think you could just play anything you would play over a major ii-V, then just lower the 5th on the ii chord, the 9th of the 5 chord and the third of the i chord to match the progression.
I think one of the characteristic sounds of the progression, the voice leading, is the b9 of the V resolving to the 5th of the i.

**princeplanet** · 06-18-2009, 11:36 PM

Fair call, I've often thought the alt scale is too much too soon...

**mr. beaumont** · 06-19-2009, 12:28 AM

gonna play some bossa? know that shit.

**franco6719** · 06-19-2009, 04:23 AM

Originally Posted by John Curran

For me personally, I prefer minor ii-V's. I think they're more colorful, ( in general I think minor keys are more colorful ). I will sometimes play a minor ii-v lick over a normal ii-v situation just to blue it up a little.

FWIW

john

Me too. I just love that sound for some reason, it seems less overworked and there are almost infinite possibilities with scales, etc..

**franco6719** · 06-19-2009, 04:31 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Like many of you, I'm slowly makin' my through as many maj 2-5-1's as I know of, but wondering how important 2-5-1 in minor is, I mean relatively. In the jazz lexicon, do you come across it, say, 3 times less often then the major variants? I'm realising that life's just too short to practice absolutely everything with equal weighting.....

No, you can't practice everything equally. That's true. But you really do need to set aside some effort specifically for the minor II-V and other centrally important progressions. A suggestion: Look for specific tunes where it is used very prominently, learn the tunes and then practice some licks or patterns, work out something of you own, or whatever (with or without backing tracks). Ex: Stella by Starlight, What is this Thing Called Love, etc..

**Joe Dalton** · 06-19-2009, 04:33 AM

I don't think that's the right idea. Rather than learn to play over situations learn to improvise over progressions. Whether it's 2 5 1 to a minor or a tritone to a major if you have the knowledge of the harmony it's just a matter of playing what you want.
I think many players forget that a musical piece is a whole.

**franco6719** · 06-19-2009, 04:33 AM

And, of course. many bossa tunes.

**franco6719** · 06-19-2009, 04:46 AM

Originally Posted by Joe Dalton

I don't think that's the right idea. Rather than learn to play over situations learn to improvise over progressions. Whether it's 2 5 1 to a minor or a tritone to a major if you have the knowledge of the harmony it's just a matter of playing what you want.
I think many players forget that a musical piece is a whole.

The point is just that in learning those sorts of tunes, you will have to play over minor II-Vs. This can be useful as exercize or practice material for that sort of thing. I agree it could be harmful to think of a tune like Stella in terms of minor II-V, major II-V...oops, what now? Ultimately, the tune is one long, carefully constructed progression that you have to internalize as a whole and not a bunch of exercises.

**princeplanet** · 06-22-2009, 11:57 PM

well, I extended a routine to include 7-3-6-2-5-1 (where 3 is alt) but found it better to go 2-5-1 -7-3-6 or 2-5-1 (maj) - 2-5-1-(rel min). I lke the sound of this succession better and am now putting this thing to work in all 5 CAGED positions in every key. Just simply arp up, bebop down and making every position fit somehow while still targeting notes. I'm liking targeting 3rds for 2-5-1 in maj, but b5-3-5 for the min 2-5-1. The notes are falling better for me like that. Question, with every chord, I'm hitting chord tones on every down beat (just to get used to the sounds), but of course with the alt chord, it's meant to sound out, right? Or are them some chord tones I should be trying to hit on down beats more than others to bring out it's essential sound? If so I may be in trouble cos I'd have to modify these practice ideas in a way that throws everything else out of whack.
Oh well, wouldn't be the first time....