how much practice to allocate to min ii-V-i

[franco6719]

He plays it EVERYWHERE!! It's fantastic and so versatile, but you don't want overdo it, like anythign else, of course.

[monk]

princeplanet,
Just to clarify things.

Arabic numbers are used to describe scale degrees (notes), 1 2 3 4 5 6 7.

Roman numerals are used for chords. Upper case for major, I IV V. Lower case for minor, ii iii vi. Add Arabic numbers for extensions, ii7-V7-I6.

Regards,
monk

[derek]

For me personally, I prefer minor ii-V's. I think they're more colorful, ( in general I think minor keys are more colorful ). I will sometimes play a minor ii-v lick over a normal ii-v situation just to blue it up a little.

FWIW

john

Interesting. Haven't heard of anyone doing this, other than of course Martino's minorization ideas. So for a ii V I in Cmaj, you would play a ii V i in Aminor, or Eminor?

[princeplanet]

I thought he meant C minor, hence the "blueing"...

[derek]

I thought he meant C minor, hence the "blueing"...

Yeah, but that is not what he said. Here is the quote,

"For me personally, I prefer minor ii-V's. I think they're more colorful, ( in general I think minor keys are more colorful ). I will sometimes play a minor ii-v lick over a normal ii-v situation just to blue it up a little." - John Curran

I guess it wouldn't matter if you are resolving on some version of Cmajor say, such as an Am7 or Em7. I will have to put a regular ii V I on the looper and play some of my minor ii V stuff over it. Just hadn't thought of it before.

[Goofsus4]

I also though John meant C minor (assuming in his reference the I chord would be C minor 7) because that would give you the b3 over M3 sort of sound which I generally associate with a blues tension.

[franco6719]

No, you just sub min 7b5 and altered dominant for min 7 and dom 7.

[Goofsus4]

No, you just sub min 7b5 and altered dominant for min 7 and dom 7.

Yes, I played some C minor 7 type stuff over the Dm7-G7 movement last night and noted the intervals produced. I see what you are talking about, i.e. C minor 7 lines tend to produce the same intervals you might get if you just played a G7#5 line over the G7.

[JohnW400]

I usually think differently about the iim7b5 only so that it opens up the possibilities without having to think too much.

I change it to either a ma7 or a ma7#5 or b5 (staring off of the 5th of the iim7b5), or I think of the root of the iim7b5 as the 3rd of a dominant 7th.

So if:

Emi7b5 = iim7b5, I use Bbma7 or Bbma7# or b5 (Bb = 5th of Emi7b5) or C7 (E= 3rd of C)

Coincidentally, C7 is in the Symetrical 1/2-W scale along with A7. Its the same scale for both. So you could use the A symetrical scale for Both the iim7b5 ang the V (Emi7b5-A7)

Also, thinking in Bb, You can use Bb lydian or Lydian #5 (4th mode of the jazz melodic) to Bb melodic minor (this gives you the A7 alt scale).

You can play both these modes without moving around too much so it becomes a little easier.

[princeplanet]

cool, and conversely, I've realised that each chord in min 2-5-1 can be seen as a min7b5 pitch collection as V7b9 and im6 are merely respellings of other half dim7 chords. Are there common patterns or licks that exploit this?

[JohnW400]

There is a minor pentatonic that works for all 3. I think they call it the Kumoi scale (for those out there that like to name scales. )

it is a major pentatonic with a b3. C D Eb G A

It yields a mi6/9 in root position, D7 b9 sus4, Eb ma7 b5, Ami11b5 plus others.

You can use this scale as Emi7b5 -A7 starting it on G and then use it statring on D for the i (Dmi) so now thats two of th esame scale type on these cahnges, and they're from a scale you already know well.

[monk]

This scale is also known as Melodic Minor Pentatonic. Same 1 2 3 5 6 formula as Major Pentatonic, only minor. It's also the notes of a minor 6/9 arpeggio rearranged as a scale.

Regards,
monk

[princeplanet]

you could include the nat3 as well, no? as in the maj blues, maj pent with b3 passing....

[JohnW400]

Not if you use it against the sub's. G minor contains Bb. When you add B natural, It doesn't quite fit the Emi7b5

But you could use it in a G blues

[princeplanet]

just lookin at some Bird, geez, not a lot of min ii-V-i going on in the Omnibook, maybe I'm not looking hard enough.....

[JohnW400]

No. Except maybe the second measure of Blues for Alice or bar 10 of Ornithology (Ami7b5 to D7). Those two come to mind.

For what your looking for:

What is This Thing Called Love
Alone Together
Stella by Starlight
Gentle Rain

These three have plenty of that minor ii-V sound you're looking for. But there are plenty more. I'm sure other posters will add to this

[princeplanet]

Thanks man.