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  1. #1

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    Hello, thought I would share this and save everybody from trudging through the book (which is worthwhile imo).


    So, in plain English.... LCC will give you tons of options, your ears and musicianship need to do the rest.

    Essentially, there are 11 parent scales which get further "out" sounding as you go (iow they add more tensions). You need to learn how to find the parent lydian scale, once you do that, you can use any of the 11 scales beginning on the lydian tonic. We will only concern ourselves with thinking about the dom7 and its ii chord for now.

    G7=F lydian ..... think about it....

    So, essentially you're playing off the b7 of the dom. Below are my notes on playing off the dom7 (and the ii). Put on the ii V I(play lydian over I) jam track and start soaking up the new vocabulary. While the system can go deeper, this is a huge chunk of it. Enjoy!!! .....p.s. the mode formula begins on b7 of dom, = means easy way to think of those notes. P.p.s notice the last four modes include the 4th.


    Mode 1 Lydian 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
    =mixolydian starting on the root of dom7.... basically major scale




    2 Lydian aug 1 2 3 #4 #5 6 7
    =lydian dom off root of V,
    adds #4 sound to dom 7




    3(very similar to 6) Lyd Dim1 2 b3 #4 5 6 7
    =hw dim off root dom. no #9



    4 Lydian dom 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7 (note NOT REGULAR LYD DOM)
    =lyd dom off b7 of dom
    =1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7 from root
    Cm/G top… im/bottom V.... Or MM of the I chord




    5 aux aug(wt)1 2 3 #4 #5 b7
    = wt scale off root (or b7) of dom7




    6 hw aux dim 1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 6 7
    =hw dim off root of dom




    7 aux dim blues
    = hw dim off b7 of dom




    8 Major f g a Bb c d e
    b7 1 2 #9 11 5 13
    Like playing mixolydian off I chord



    9 Mixolydian f g a Bb c d eb
    b7 1 2 #9 11 5 b13
    Like playing Dorian off I chord




    10 Maj aug 1 2 3 4 5 #5 6 7
    f g a Bb c C# D E
    b7 1 2 #9 11#11 513
    Like playing mixolydian with an added #1 of I chord



    11 African Amercian Blues 1 2 b334b55 6 b7
    f g Ab A Bb B C D Eb
    b7 1 b9 9 #9 3 11 5 b13
    Like Min i chordscale (c d eb f g) from G chromatic back up to C
    Last edited by vintagelove; 01-05-2016 at 09:35 PM.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    oh this is the simple version !
    thanks man

  4. #3

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    Aha!
    So you are one of the 14.7 People who actually understand that book !

    As a Rock / R&B Player looking to expand I once read a bit of it.

    But I was looking at Theory Books for Harmony and Modulations etc.

    It was slightly over my head- like the next floor up...lol.

    I am currently using Parent Keys for Modes
    of course so G Ionian ( all the structures in G major not just a 7 note scale) is the Parent Key for A Dorian - I use that all the time and now I am doing a thing with Pentatonics and Transposed Pentatonics ( the scale that sounds less like a scale) that can gradually go more and more outside and digesting them and getting under my fingers ( then I will chromaticize them and stick arpeggiated triads in them etc. )
    And the Jazz Guys use a shortcut on Altered Dominants the b3 Minor Pentatonic
    which is enharmonic to the #4 Major Pentatonic which is all the Tones NOT in the Parent Major Key...so I am trying to catalog these and get them under my Fingers and into my mind etc.

    So the reason I am converting to Pentatonics is it seems like a great way to go from Totally Inside ( ALL Chord Tones)
    to Totally Outside ( No Chord Tones)
    and many points in between..
    7 Note Scales do not do this as Precisely - you could say...do you agree ?

    1)Why did the Author ( is it George Russell ?)
    use Lydian as the Parent Key ?

    2)I notice they are all started on a* Chord Tone like the b7 of a Dominant - the common Mode would be Mixolydian or basically playing in the IV Major Parent Key-
    right?
    So he uses Lydian and starts it on the b7- is that it for one example ?

    And it just creates some cool and unusual Tensions depending on where it's started on the chord you are playing over ?

    Also since every 7 Note Parent Key or Mode
    contains the I IV and V Pentatonic scales ( and their Relative Minors) can these Lydian Parent Scales be enharmonically converted to Lydian Pentatonics in a similar way to what I am doing with Dorian and Mixolydian Parent Pentatonics now ?

    I know they can be converted but since they are 5 Notes will it be more useful and sound less like a " scale" and be less critical for the starting notes ?

    Plus ...if it sounds good..

    The Lydian Chromatic Pentatonic Concept- now that's a really catchy Title...

    I know I am going to have to read the answer to this at least three times to get it...lol.

    * Playing Devil's Advocate here- when you
    "frame" any motif or short phrase from chord tone to another chord tone - and do it Rhythmically - you can get away with almost anything outside especially if you play it fast...and make it work..right?
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 01-05-2016 at 08:29 PM.

  5. #4

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    the LCC is hierarchical approach to chromaticism. that's the point of the LCC.

  6. #5

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    I was rather reminded of a line or two of Byron:

    'And Coleridge, too, has lately taken wing,
    But like a hawk encumber'd with his hood,
    Explaining Metaphysics to the nation—
    I wish he would explain his Explanation.'

    But actually this is very nicely distilled. Of course, the question is, what do with these scales?

  7. #6

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    Thanks for this! I understand them all except #4? How -where do I start-use this scale?
    Thanks,
    Rob

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by rquattro View Post
    Thanks for this! I understand them all except #4? How -where do I start-use this scale?
    Thanks,
    Rob

    Hello, for number 4, if you already have fingerings for traditional lydian dom, play them off the b7 of the dominant.

    if you don't, you can think about it as a new scale starting from the root of the Dom, 1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7


    Cool sounds in that one.... Good luck!!!

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I was rather reminded of a line or two of Byron:

    'And Coleridge, too, has lately taken wing,
    But like a hawk encumber'd with his hood,
    Explaining Metaphysics to the nation—
    I wish he would explain his Explanation.'

    But actually this is very nicely distilled. Of course, the question is, what do with these scales?


    Just like any other scale, they are each a box of crayons filled with colors to draw a picture with.


    The possibilities are only limited by your imagination.

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    Aha!
    So you are one of the 14.7 People who actually understand that book !

    As a Rock / R&B Player looking to expand I once read a bit of it.

    But I was looking at Theory Books for Harmony and Modulations etc.

    It was slightly over my head- like the next floor up...lol.

    I am currently using Parent Keys for Modes
    of course so G Ionian ( all the structures in G major not just a 7 note scale) is the Parent Key for A Dorian - I use that all the time and now I am doing a thing with Pentatonics and Transposed Pentatonics ( the scale that sounds less like a scale) that can gradually go more and more outside and digesting them and getting under my fingers ( then I will chromaticize them and stick arpeggiated triads in them etc. )
    And the Jazz Guys use a shortcut on Altered Dominants the b3 Minor Pentatonic
    which is enharmonic to the #4 Major Pentatonic which is all the Tones NOT in the Parent Major Key...so I am trying to catalog these and get them under my Fingers and into my mind etc.

    So the reason I am converting to Pentatonics is it seems like a great way to go from Totally Inside ( ALL Chord Tones)
    to Totally Outside ( No Chord Tones)
    and many points in between..
    7 Note Scales do not do this as Precisely - you could say...do you agree ?

    1)Why did the Author ( is it George Russell ?)
    use Lydian as the Parent Key ?

    2)I notice they are all started on a* Chord Tone like the b7 of a Dominant - the common Mode would be Mixolydian or basically playing in the IV Major Parent Key-
    right?
    So he uses Lydian and starts it on the b7- is that it for one example ?

    And it just creates some cool and unusual Tensions depending on where it's started on the chord you are playing over ?

    Also since every 7 Note Parent Key or Mode
    contains the I IV and V Pentatonic scales ( and their Relative Minors) can these Lydian Parent Scales be enharmonically converted to Lydian Pentatonics in a similar way to what I am doing with Dorian and Mixolydian Parent Pentatonics now ?

    I know they can be converted but since they are 5 Notes will it be more useful and sound less like a " scale" and be less critical for the starting notes ?

    Plus ...if it sounds good..

    The Lydian Chromatic Pentatonic Concept- now that's a really catchy Title...

    I know I am going to have to read the answer to this at least three times to get it...lol.

    * Playing Devil's Advocate here- when you
    "frame" any motif or short phrase from chord tone to another chord tone - and do it Rhythmically - you can get away with almost anything outside especially if you play it fast...and make it work..right?

    There is a lot to answer here, I'll do my best without rewriting his book


    1) He considered lydian more consonant than a major scale, also mathematics... That justifies what he heard..... That being said, notice mode 1 is the equivalent of using the major scale.

    2) reread exactly what I wrote, all formula start on b7 of the dominant chord, and will work over both the ii and V.... The = is a convenient or traditional way to think of the scale.

    3) I use pentatonic subs all the time. Do the math, get them in your ear, shed them, lots of amazing sounds with ingrained fingerings.

    devils advocate, sure, but that's like saying painting a masterpiece is just drawing some shapes, but if you have a good eye and some colors, you'll be fine...

    Again this is just a cheat sheet for using a bunch of new colors without reading 300 pages. If you dig the sounds, check out the book (or pm me about some lessons). Whether or not someone should drop their conventional theory and go full on LCC, like I said in another thread, I would need to see the great classical works analyzed using LCC. Until then it's just another giant set of possibilities.

  11. #10

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    I see so using #4 would be like C melodic minor over G7?
    Thanks again for posting.

    Rob

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by rquattro View Post
    I see so using #4 would be like C melodic minor over G7?
    Thanks again for posting.

    Rob

    Yes nice catch, I'll add that to the op.

  13. #12

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    Ok thanks again.Lots of great sounds....

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
    Hello, thought I would share this and save everybody from trudging through the book (which is worthwhile imo).


    So, in plain English.... LCC will give you tons of options, your ears and musicianship need to do the rest.

    Essentially, there are 11 parent scales which get further "out" sounding as you go (iow they add more tensions). You need to learn how to find the parent lydian scale, once you do that, you can use any of the 11 scales beginning on the lydian tonic. We will only concern ourselves with thinking about the dom7 and its ii chord for now.

    G7=F lydian ..... think about it....

    So, essentially you're playing off the b7 of the dom. Below are my notes on playing off the dom7 (and the ii). Put on the ii V I(play lydian over I) jam track and start soaking up the new vocabulary. While the system can go deeper, this is a huge chunk of it. Enjoy!!! .....p.s. the mode formula begins on b7 of dom, = means easy way to think of those notes. P.p.s notice the last four modes include the 4th.


    Mode 1 Lydian 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
    =mixolydian starting on the root of dom7.... basically major scale




    2 Lydian aug 1 2 3 #4 #5 6 7
    =lydian dom off root of V,
    adds #4 sound to dom 7




    3(very similar to 6) Lyd Dim1 2 b3 #4 5 6 7
    =hw dim off root dom. no #9



    4 Lydian dom 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7 (note NOT REGULAR LYD DOM)
    =lyd dom off b7 of dom
    =1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7 from root
    Cm/G top… im/bottom V.... Or MM of the I chord




    5 aux aug(wt)1 2 3 #4 #5 b7
    = wt scale off root (or b7) of dom7




    6 hw aux dim 1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 6 7
    =hw dim off root of dom




    7 aux dim blues
    = hw dim off b7 of dom




    8 Major f g a Bb c d e
    b7 1 2 #9 11 5 13
    Like playing mixolydian off I chord



    9 Mixolydian f g a Bb c d eb
    b7 1 2 #9 11 5 b13
    Like playing Dorian off I chord




    10 Maj aug 1 2 3 4 5 #5 6 7
    f g a Bb c C# D E
    b7 1 2 #9 11#11 513
    Like playing mixolydian with an added #1 of I chord



    11 African Amercian Blues 1 2 b334b55 6 b7
    f g Ab A Bb B C D Eb
    b7 1 b9 9 #9 3 11 5 b13
    Like Min i chordscale (c d eb f g) from G chromatic back up to C
    I find this confusing, needs clearer explanation. At any rate, how are these pitch collections any different from modes of Major, Melodic Minor and Diminished scales we already know?

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    I find this confusing, needs clearer explanation. At any rate, how are these pitch collections any different from modes of Major, Melodic Minor and Diminished scales we already know?

    If it's confusing, please ask a specific question, explanations in boldface are about as clear as possibly could be (if someone has a sufficient enough base of knowledge that they should even be working on this) for the purpose of this cheat sheet.

    As to your second question, some of these scales have other names, but, some folks may not know them at all, and some might not have known where to use them, this helps with that. Lastly even if you already know these scales, looking at them in a different way might make you think of something you've never done before. I had a breakthrough thought on a completely unrelated subject the day I really discovered this stuff. Never underestimate the power of getting the creative juices flowing!!!

  16. #15

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    When I read the Title I thought LCC was
    more of a Theory Book....but realized it wasn't and did not for me integrate, unify, simplify, enlighten etc.

    I don't seem to use scales as much as most people ( I do use them kind of but they have wider interval shapes and Arps thrown in ) but I like Pentatonics especially with different endings .. and as I said I am working on Pentatonic Relationships because you can easily get from Inside ( ALL chord tones) to outside (NO chord Tones) and points in between with Pentatonics more quickly than you can with 7 Note Scales.

    Surprised no one wrote the Pentatonic Book yet - probably only 30 Pages ...lol.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 01-06-2016 at 10:13 AM.

  17. #16

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    Now the good news....jazz theory is even simpler than LLC.....

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    Surprised no one wrote the Pentatonic Book yet
    Keep digging and you'll find it's far from an original concept, and is incorporated by enough great players, but rarely as an end all. Check out some educational stuff by guitarist Vic Juris.
    Last edited by cosmic gumbo; 01-07-2016 at 07:19 AM.

  19. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    When I read the Title I thought LCC was
    more of a Theory Book....but realized it wasn't and did not for me integrate, unify, simplify, enlighten etc.

    I don't seem to use scales as much as most people ( I do use them kind of but they have wider interval shapes and Arps thrown in ) but I like Pentatonics especially with different endings .. and as I said I am working on Pentatonic Relationships because you can easily get from Inside ( ALL chord tones) to outside (NO chord Tones) and points in between with Pentatonics more quickly than you can with 7 Note Scales.

    Surprised no one wrote the Pentatonic Book yet - probably only 30 Pages ...lol.

    Why not turn these into pentatonic scales, with wide intervals and arpeggios?

    Its just a few new colors to play with.


    If you are not already, check out pentatonic substitutions. If you know what you're doing, and you be careful to avoid/resolve a note or two, you can practically get away with playing them anywhere.

  20. #19

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    Yes. Vintage love- I get away with playing them a lot now..especially when I tack on
    an arpeggiated Triad at the end which forces what I just played to be heard in the Key or Harmonic Region of the destination Triad.
    A "Melodic Cadence"so you rip on a Major Pentatonic and end on the Relative Minor Triad - it will be heard as Minor...
    But you can go to other Triads and cause the whole thing to be heard in another Key
    ( or Harmonic Region) just by the ending!

    I play these all over and with interpolated
    stuff in the middle to disguise them etc. but
    I want to "catalog" them better.

    I also suspect that they are far better than 7
    Note Scales for quickly getting Inside or Outside of Keys -Chord Tones- and when you play three of them you are "enharmonic" with their Parent Mode and they are spread out better on the Guitar than 7 Note scales in many ways for playing parallel fourths simultaneously etc.

    There IS no end all be all...but these seem the most logical step to to compliment 7 Note Scales.

    Yes arpeggiating some of them is a good idea but I am interested in Arps that can be played over the existing Chord inside so if I use a ii Arpeggio over a I min7 have to use a b6 on the ii chord - I want my vertical Arps to be "Inside" so ...not sure how these
    Lydian things would ' stack' up- I am all over the fretboard so I need " Inside " tones ...easy to get "out" but again I am doing some kind of Rhythmic Post Steely Dan R&B etc...outside has to be in context and resolved...quickly..lol.

    Where is a "cheat sheet" of the shortcut Pentatonics Inside to Outside over each Chord Type? That would be interesting.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 01-08-2016 at 03:59 PM.

  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    Yes. Vintage love- I get away with playing them a lot now..especially when I tack on
    an arpeggiated Triad at the end which forces what I just played to be heard in the Key or Harmonic Region of the destination Triad.
    A "Melodic Cadence"so you rip on a Major Pentatonic and end on the Relative Minor Triad - it will be heard as Minor.
    But you can go to other Triads and cause the whole thing to be heard in another related Key within 2 sharps or flats away
    ( or Harmonic Region) just by the ending!

    I play these all over and with interpolated
    stuff in the middle to disguise them etc. but
    I want to "catalog" them better.

    I also suspect that they are far better than 7
    Note Scales for quickly getting Inside or Outside of Keys -Chord Tones- and when you play three of them you are "enharmonic" with their Parent Mode and they are spread out better on the Guitar than 7 Note scales in many ways for playing parallel fourths simultaneously etc.

    There IS no end all be all...but these seem the most logical step to to compliment 7 Note Scales.

    Yes arpeggiating some of them is a good idea but I am interested in Arps that can be played over the existing Chord inside so if I use a ii Arpeggio over a I min7 have to use a b6 on the ii chord - I want my vertical Arps to be "Inside" so ...not sure how these
    Lydian things would ' stack' up- I am all over the fretboard so I need " Inside " tones ...easy to get "out" but again I am doing some kind of Rhythmic Post Steely Dan R&B etc...outside has to be in context and resolved...quickly..lol.

    Where is a "cheat sheet" of the shortcut Pentatonics Inside to Outside over each Chord Type? That would be interesting.

    Honestly most Guitarists just think of a
    7 note scale when you say a Cmajor Scale.
    Saying that the C Major Penta F Major Penta and G Major Penta and their Relative Minors are all enharmonic subs or part of the C major Scale would light up the fretboard for a lot of Guitarists..I never heard it before...give me a Grammy now ...lol

    I heard Michael Brecker using them to great effect once live....

    I saw John Mclaughlin using them but not so great..great chops but typical Guitar Rock stuff...no Transposition or creative Resolution...but that was long ago.

    I watched a Video recently and they 're talking about Modes and Scales and one guy mentioned the enharmonic nature of modes a bit but- when they improvised they were was using a typical bunched up close Interval Alphabetical Order scale...people will not pay to hear that IMO.
    In my Book * " Why Scales Suck" I explain this more fully ...lol.

    *Don't Worry - I didn't really write a book.

    I think guitar players give pentatonics a bad name. The pentatonic scales are the chord tones. What better to play with??

    i have a cheat sheet on pentatonic subs I can send you if you're interested, just pm me your email.

  22. #21

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    Thanks very much I will do that .

    I appreciate you Posting and answering my questions.

    This Forum is a Great Resource - a lot of Guys who have really done their homework etc.

    I don' t want anyone to mistake my attempts at Humor to mean I don't respect and appreciate the Brain Trust here.

    I actual do a more' common ' simpler version of ' Heirarchy '
    Convert to Parent Ionian ..

    The Modes are 7 note scales - Pentas are 5

    So Parent Major = I / IV/ V and their enharmonic minor pentas
    I call this Modal = Enharmonic Pentatonic Conversion

    Then Any Ionian Mode ( Major Scale ) plus the #IV Major Penta = the Chromatic Scale

    Meaning #IV Penta is as" OUT " as you can get and working around the Circle of Fifths or Fourths you get the OTHER Pentas progressively more "Inside " until you are back to totally "inside " .

    But it would "complexify " my realtime conceptual thing to start trying to grock 'lydian ' as the Parent Mode.

    I use parent scales and Parent Keys , and ' Regions'
    but I do not understand the term:


    ' Lydian Tonic '

    C Lydian = G Ionian where's the Lydian Tonic ?
    C right ?
    Where is the Lydian Tonic on a Dom 7th Chord are we converting Mixolydian to Lydian Parent Scale ?

    G7 = G mixolydian = C ionian = F lydian
    So F is Lydian Tonic ? for G7 ?

    This might mean that my conversion to Ionian and using Pentas is just a different , more transparent look at this...
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 03-12-2018 at 09:55 AM.

  23. #22

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    Pentatonics were covered by Ramon Ricker in his book Pentatonic Scales for Jazz Improvisations in 1975.
    Still available on Amazon.

    That was the first one I came across that covered the topic outside of the guitaristic blues thing...[which is great
    in itself of course]

    Ricker is a saxophonist and that immediately gives us a different slant at the many uses of the pentatonics
    by players such as Woody Shaw, Wayne Shorter,Joe Henderson etc.

    He has charts going from most inside to most outside scale to use over various chord qualities.

    If you take one pentatonic and place it successively through the 12 "keys" of that scale you can pretty easily
    figure out what intervals against any one chosen chord and then extrapolate that.
    .....Easy enough to do for yourself, and you'd learn more into the bargain.

    But the book is valuable.....has a few choice solos of the names mentioned above ....transcribed by Bill Dobbins.

    ...More recently Jerry Bergonzi has given his [prodigious] attention to the subject in his Inside Improvisation series
    of books published by Advance ....the one for pentatonics is Vol 2 "Pentatonics".
    Jerry's approach is deep, and if you want a couple of lessons by him to see online go to :

    https://www.mymusicmasterclass.com/


    Also recommend Tony Greaves' website [he's a guitar player...a good one ....jazz on a strat]
    See Lessons 10-16 on pentatonic use, based on Bergonzi's book approach.

    https://allegedartist.wordpress.com/...e-of-contents/

  24. #23

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    Gonna try to keep an eye on this thread, thanks!

  25. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
    Hello, thought I would share this and save everybody from trudging through the book (which is worthwhile imo).


    So, in plain English.... LCC will give you tons of options, your ears and musicianship need to do the rest.

    Essentially, there are 11 parent scales which get further "out" sounding as you go (iow they add more tensions). You need to learn how to find the parent lydian scale, once you do that, you can use any of the 11 scales beginning on the lydian tonic. We will only concern ourselves with thinking about the dom7 and its ii chord for now.

    G7=F lydian ..... think about it....

    So, essentially you're playing off the b7 of the dom. Below are my notes on playing off the dom7 (and the ii). Put on the ii V I(play lydian over I) jam track and start soaking up the new vocabulary. While the system can go deeper, this is a huge chunk of it.
    i want to say huge thanks for explanation...makes me starting curious to learn it, i start to try those scales on Gdom7 on II V I and some scales really catchy, but some i still didnt get feels...

    and i still confused a bit

    on first i still confused about the position chord, based on the dom7 and ii chord,

    so our root will start on F ?
    F G A B C D E
    i ii iii iv v vi vii

    or its second chord of II V I, so it will be V(b7)

    and

    Quote Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post

    2) reread exactly what I wrote, all formula start on b7 of the dominant chord, and will work over both the ii and V.... The = is a convenient or traditional way to think of the scale.
    and if the first state right so..the im confused about the mode...should it will be like this ?
    F G A B C D E
    Imaj7 IIdom IIImin7 IVdim Vmaj7 VIminor7 VIIminor7

    the II is Gdom but the V is maj7

    thanks for explanation...god bless you
    Last edited by an_iron_panda; 02-07-2016 at 06:17 AM.

  26. #25

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    I just played with a bass player who went to the NEC of Music when Geo. Russell taught there.
    He said the rumor going around there was that GR didn't even understand the LCC!

    I read the GR bio, and was amazed to find that all the GR music that I loved had nothing to do with the LCC.

    It turned out that all the GR music I couldn't stand WAS written using the LCC.

    The sad thing was that GR disowned all that great music he wrote before the LCC, and forbade public performance of it.

  27. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by an_iron_panda View Post
    i want to say huge thanks for explanation...makes me starting curious to learn it, i start to try those scales on Gdom7 on II V I and some scales really catchy, but some i still didnt get feels...

    and i still confused a bit

    on first i still confused about the position chord, based on the dom7 and ii chord,

    so our root will start on F ?
    F G A B C D E
    i ii iii iv v vi vii

    or its second chord of II V I, so it will be V(b7)

    and



    and if the first state right so..the im confused about the mode...should it will be like this ?
    F G A B C D E
    Imaj7 IIdom IIImin7 IVdim Vmaj7 VIminor7 VIIminor7

    the II is Gdom but the V is maj7

    thanks for explanation...god bless you


    Hello, thanks for the kind words.

    Put simply, for each chord there is a Lydian tonic, off of this tonic you can play any of the above scales.

    for a dom7 the Lydian tonic is the b7. Any of the above scales, starting on F will work over the G7.

    In your first example, you made the mistake of thinking about chords. The only thing (right now) that will begin on the Lydian tonic are the above scales.

    So over G7, f g a b c d e f

    notice that is just the same thing as playing G mixolydian, nothing special about that. However let's look at the next scale.

    over G7 play Lydian aug, f g a b c# d e f

    now granted, there are other ways you can come up with that sound (4th mode of MM), however as you keep going through those scales you eventually run into new combinations of sounds. The parts I bolded are ways you can think about these new sounds with things we already know.

    Dont get sidetracked thinking about modes, chords, etc. Though I'll leave this little teaser. This concept is fantastic for creating harmony like Allan Holdsworth. If you're looking to create that style of music it's well worth diving deeper. Otherwise, just enjoy a few new colors from these scales.

    best wishes.

  28. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
    Hello, thanks for the kind words. Put simply, for each chord there is a Lydian tonic, off of this tonic you can play any of the above scales.for a dom7 the Lydian tonic is the b7. Any of the above scales, starting on F will work over the G7.In your first example, you made the mistake of thinking about chords. The only thing (right now) that will begin on the Lydian tonic are the above scales. So over G7, f g a b c d e fnotice that is just the same thing as playing G mixolydian, nothing special about that. However let's look at the next scale.over G7 play Lydian aug, f g a b c# d e fnow granted, there are other ways you can come up with that sound (4th mode of MM), however as you keep going through those scales you eventually run into new combinations of sounds. The parts I bolded are ways you can think about these new sounds with things we already know. Dont get sidetracked thinking about modes, chords, etc. Though I'll leave this little teaser. This concept is fantastic for creating harmony like Allan Holdsworth. If you're looking to create that style of music it's well worth diving deeper. Otherwise, just enjoy a few new colors from these scales.best wishes.
    Thanks for enlightenment,Yeah, if i play first scale it just play g mix, or c ion. So, if the root is C no matter what progression those scale above always start on lydian (f). Im Gonna try dig those scales more deeper tonight
    Last edited by an_iron_panda; 02-08-2016 at 08:59 AM.

  29. #28

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    George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization

    George Russell - Storefront


    speaking of, I have a mint copy of the book if interested....

    $75.00 --don't have pay pal but will take check if interested, Or pick up in N. VA

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by an_iron_panda View Post
    Thanks for enlightenment,Yeah, if i play first scale it just play g mix, or c ion. So, if the root is C no matter what progression those scale above always start on lydian (f).
    I think you're missing the point. The "lydian tonic" of what we normally call the C major scale is F. But that doesn't mean you "start on F" when playing. It's the exact same set of notes and you "start" wherever you like, same as if you were thinking "C major". It's just an alternative conceptual perspective.

    What vintagelove is saying (I think) is that the "lydian tonic" perspective can suggest other scales that might work which "thinking C major" would not give you.
    So if you come up with F G A B C# D E (conventionally known as "D melodic minor" or "G lydian dominant" if you use it on a G chord), you can use those notes. Again, starting anywhere. It's simply an alternative pool of notes. (You use your ear to judge how well it works.)
    Eg, thinking from F on a G7 chord might take you more "out there" if you choose F lydian dominant: F G A B C D Eb. (Aka C melodic minor, or G mixolydian b6.)

    It's still mostly just alternative labels for scales you already know, but might not think of from a conventional perspective.

    Remember the application of this concept is limited in improvisation on traditional jazz progressions (eg the typical standards from the great american songbook, major and minor keys, the old ii-V-Is etc). It's about escaping all that stuff; a way of creating new-sounding harmonies, along the lines of modal jazz, but not strictly modal either.
    Last edited by JonR; 02-17-2016 at 05:43 AM.

  31. #30

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    this is an interesting way to look at the issue of going out in an organized way. Its not the way I use, but the underlying idea is strikingly similar. My way has its own thread, 2+2=4

    In this method, you are conscious of the notes that are out of the key. That's at the forefront of how I do this, too.

    Remember that in any diatonic key there are 7 notes in and 5 notes out. By keeping track of which of those 5 notes you have used, you can imply more complex relationships. For me, those relationships are pulled from the triads in the 2 implied keys, and in this method it is accomplished by progressively adding these notes as accidentals to form new scales

    of the two approaches, this one here that vintageLove has laid out is by far the more approachable method

    by that I mean that you will be putting this kind of stuff to use in your playing a lot faster than trying to do things my way.

    I would encourage everyone to experiment with how they handle those 5 notes that are out of the key

    that's where bebop lives. If you find your own way, you'll get your own sound. That's how the old guys did it, too.

  32. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    I think you're missing the point. The "lydian tonic" of what we normally call the C major scale is F. But that doesn't mean you "start on F" when playing. It's the exact same set of notes and you "start" wherever you like, same as if you were thinking "C major". It's just an alternative conceptual perspective.

    What vintagelove is saying (I think) is that the "lydian tonic" perspective can suggest other scales that might work which "thinking C major" would not give you.
    So if you come up with F G A B C# D E (conventionally known as "D melodic minor" or "G lydian dominant" if you use it on a G chord), you can use those notes. Again, starting anywhere. It's simply an alternative pool of notes. (You use your ear to judge how well it works.)
    Eg, thinking from F on a G7 chord might take you more "out there" if you choose F lydian dominant: F G A B C D Eb. (Aka C melodic minor, or G mixolydian b6.)

    It's still mostly just alternative labels for scales you already know, but might not think of from a conventional perspective.

    Remember the application of this concept is limited in improvisation on traditional jazz progressions (eg the typical standards from the great american songbook, major and minor keys, the old ii-V-Is etc). It's about escaping all that stuff; a way of creating new-sounding harmonies, along the lines of modal jazz, but not strictly modal either.

    Agreed. That being said, the example are a simple way you can get some of those sounds over typical bebop changes, ii V's etc. I also agree where you really start getting good stuff out of it is (for lack of a better word) "Holdsworthian" type complex harmonic music. It (being the way all the notes ring "consonantly" gives a very rich sonority to the harmonies, avoiding some of the dissonance that makes some of that music unapproachable for the average listener.

  33. #32
    destinytot Guest
    Fabulous thread - thank you!

  34. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post

    i have a cheat sheet on pentatonic subs I can send you if you're interested, just pm me your email.
    I realise I may be a little late to the party here but i've been pondering the use of pentatonic subs for a while now and would be interested in taking a look at your 'cheat sheet' if it wouldn't pain you too much? As someone that has just started a jazz course at university I have a feeling learning the proper applications for pentatonic subs might be a slightly less painful way to start experimenting with sounds I'm less familiar with. Insert training wheels metaphor perhaps?

    In any case, thanks for dumbing down the concept of LCC for me! It is far beyond my ability to comprehend fully right now, I feel as though once i've finished my degree I may come back and try to understand your abridged version haha

    Cheers

  35. #34

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    LCC in one sentence:

    What's the beef with the C# George?

  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by nick1994 View Post
    the LCC is hierarchical approach to chromaticism. that's the point of the LCC.
    Yes but I outlined Traditional Parent Key for Modal ..

    So you want Dorian - use the ENTIRE bVII Key and ALL it's Structures ..

    So D minor ...you are using Cmajor including ALL ARPS and
    The I , IV, V Pentatonics and their Relative Minors ii iii vi Minor Pentas--

    NOW - to go Outside Completely
    Shift the Major Pentatonic to #IV
    And work your way back around the Circle of Fifths to go back ' Inside', using Pentatonic.

    Based on the simple fact that any
    Major Scale and the #IV Major Pentatonic equals the Chromatic Scale.

    So you use the Pentas to add Chromatic Tones.

    No need to convert to Lydian .
    Unless you want the Lydian Parent Key which is the V Key, Mixo is the IV Key etc.

    But the Pentas are always the way ' OUT '.

  37. #36

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    One thing I noticed recently - interested if you guys hear it this way...

    Harmonically with chords I hear the brightest chords

    as 1) Major .... Ionian
    2) Non Altered Dominants next Mixolydian
    3) Major 7b5 , Major 7#11, and Major 9b5 and major 9/6 b5 etc. Major 13 b5
    so that is Lydian ..

    Those to my ears are the three brightest chord families starting with brightest or most consonant .

  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    One thing I noticed recently - interested if you guys hear it this way...

    Harmonically with chords I hear the brightest chords

    as 1) Major .... Ionian
    2) Non Altered Dominants next Mixolydian
    3) Major 7b5 , Major 7#11, and Major 9b5 and major 9/6 b5 etc. Major 13 b5
    so that is Lydian ..

    Those to my ears are the three brightest chord families starting with brightest or most consonant .
    Russell thought Lydian was the most consonant. I don't really have any followup to that, but I remember reading in the LCC book that the Lydian mode "sounds a unity" with the Maj7 chord.

    (No, I don't have a copy of the book. My ex-gf was a music grad student and got it out of the library for me.)

  39. #38
    Sit at a piano, stack 5ths from c until you get to f, hear that? Now play f#.

  40. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Joe View Post
    Russell thought Lydian was the most consonant. I don't really have any followup to that, but I remember reading in the LCC book that the Lydian mode "sounds a unity" with the Maj7 chord.

    (No, I don't have a copy of the book. My ex-gf was a music grad student and got it out of the library for me.)


    Sit at a piano, stack 5ths from c until you get to f, hear that? Now play f#. That’s what he meant.


    hope that helps.

  41. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
    Sit at a piano, stack 5ths from c until you get to f, hear that? Now play f#. That’s what he meant.
    I understand why.

    I was just kind of riffing on RobertKoa's post about the Ionian sounding brighter than Lydian. Most of the stuff I've read put Lydian at the top.

  42. #41
    Bright is the key word.

    It doesn't matter if you play the scale. If you're hearing for example the +5 as a dark b6 then the theory won't make any sense. Also keep in mind every bit can be potentially harmonically resolved. A bright harmonizing 4 is really hard to connect to. A negative 4 directly connects.

  43. #42

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    I was thinking/listening from a Chordal , Harmonic, perspective of the chords ...in modern composition not the scales.

    As I said I hear , generally, Major type Chords as Brightest, most Consonant , followed by

    Major 7 b5th, and all the Majors with flat 5ths [ Major 679 b5 etc etc ]
    Then the Major Sharp11ths [ here meaning both 5ths are present in the voicing] - although these are unusually consonant for the structure - on paper they look like they would be dissonant.
    You can do a ii - V -I to any of these
    Major b5 chords including those voicings with both n5 and flat 5th -and depending on the voicing - they are almost but NOT as consonant as Major 697 etc. but they sound beautiful- just not quite as' rest' as the pure major versions .
    And some Major b5 voicings don't even quite function as a I - they need a second resolution to complete the cadence .So slightly more dissonant than' pure 'Majors.
    Anyway that's how I hear it.


    Followed by Unaltered Dominant types - more dissonant.

    Followed by altered Dominants - most dissonant.
    Some categories overlap depends on voicing


    I don't have a workstation keyboard now ( piano) -
    but I was able to stack three perfect fifths over C on Guitar and then play an F and an F# on top .. as a voicing with two hands .

    The F# does sound more consonant , sweeter etc. not sure if that's the Overtone Series or the Intervals in the stack though.

    Thanks Vintagelove.

    Then there's the counterintuitive aspect that many of us use the Major Scale as the yardstick for intervals ( and can't sing the lydian mode ) .
    So to convert the whole "parent key system " ( if you think that way ) to
    lydian , rather than referencing Ionian- , is a big shift .
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 05-17-2020 at 08:17 AM.

  44. #43

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    I'm always interested in the opinions in respect of Mr Russell's book. I haven't come across anyone discussing any of the solo transcriptions. These include Barry Galbraith's 2 32-bar choruses on 'Not Me'. I've just played through it and very nice it is too. I'd like to hear what other people think of George Russell's analysis. I have my own ideas. I haven't heard BG's recording.

  45. #44

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    I often think of the b7 of the dominant. It’s the way Prez used to do it... Wes too.

    revisiting, these options make good sense. The Lydian dominant on IV is of course the V of melodic minor. So really it’s a very standard option that Bach used a lot.

    Russell’s theory is kind of a bit muddled. The stack of fifths idea is fudged a bit. But I’m guessing he was in fact going with his ears

  46. #45

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    yea... Love the pent connections. Personally the only door that the approach opened for me.... and this was back in the 70's, was the 3rd scale which is Harm. Major... 4th degree. Sometimes called... Lydian b3, or Min/maj#11, anyway the Harmonic Major scale and it's diatonic or modal chords... of which the 5th degree or Mixo.b9 and it's related II... became pretty standard Modal Interchange chords.

    The others were already in use , just not his organization of creating relationships and developing them.

  47. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    yea... Love the pent connections. Personally the only door that the approach opened for me.... and this was back in the 70's, was the 3rd scale which is Harm. Major... 4th degree. Sometimes called... Lydian b3, or Min/maj#11, anyway the Harmonic Major scale and it's diatonic or modal chords... of which the 5th degree or Mixo.b9 and it's related II... became pretty standard Modal Interchange chords.

    The others were already in use , just not his organization of creating relationships and developing them.

    This is exactly the epiphany that I had when I was studying with Mike Longo and he turned me on to the LCC! All of the other "modes" were in use already and I was aware of the Harmonic Major scale but never really put it into use.