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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by an_iron_panda
    i want to say huge thanks for explanation...makes me starting curious to learn it, i start to try those scales on Gdom7 on II V I and some scales really catchy, but some i still didnt get feels...

    and i still confused a bit

    on first i still confused about the position chord, based on the dom7 and ii chord,

    so our root will start on F ?
    F G A B C D E
    i ii iii iv v vi vii

    or its second chord of II V I, so it will be V(b7)

    and



    and if the first state right so..the im confused about the mode...should it will be like this ?
    F G A B C D E
    Imaj7 IIdom IIImin7 IVdim Vmaj7 VIminor7 VIIminor7

    the II is Gdom but the V is maj7

    thanks for explanation...god bless you


    Hello, thanks for the kind words.

    Put simply, for each chord there is a Lydian tonic, off of this tonic you can play any of the above scales.

    for a dom7 the Lydian tonic is the b7. Any of the above scales, starting on F will work over the G7.

    In your first example, you made the mistake of thinking about chords. The only thing (right now) that will begin on the Lydian tonic are the above scales.

    So over G7, f g a b c d e f

    notice that is just the same thing as playing G mixolydian, nothing special about that. However let's look at the next scale.

    over G7 play Lydian aug, f g a b c# d e f

    now granted, there are other ways you can come up with that sound (4th mode of MM), however as you keep going through those scales you eventually run into new combinations of sounds. The parts I bolded are ways you can think about these new sounds with things we already know.

    Dont get sidetracked thinking about modes, chords, etc. Though I'll leave this little teaser. This concept is fantastic for creating harmony like Allan Holdsworth. If you're looking to create that style of music it's well worth diving deeper. Otherwise, just enjoy a few new colors from these scales.

    best wishes.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by vintagelove
    Hello, thanks for the kind words. Put simply, for each chord there is a Lydian tonic, off of this tonic you can play any of the above scales.for a dom7 the Lydian tonic is the b7. Any of the above scales, starting on F will work over the G7.In your first example, you made the mistake of thinking about chords. The only thing (right now) that will begin on the Lydian tonic are the above scales. So over G7, f g a b c d e fnotice that is just the same thing as playing G mixolydian, nothing special about that. However let's look at the next scale.over G7 play Lydian aug, f g a b c# d e fnow granted, there are other ways you can come up with that sound (4th mode of MM), however as you keep going through those scales you eventually run into new combinations of sounds. The parts I bolded are ways you can think about these new sounds with things we already know. Dont get sidetracked thinking about modes, chords, etc. Though I'll leave this little teaser. This concept is fantastic for creating harmony like Allan Holdsworth. If you're looking to create that style of music it's well worth diving deeper. Otherwise, just enjoy a few new colors from these scales.best wishes.
    Thanks for enlightenment,Yeah, if i play first scale it just play g mix, or c ion. So, if the root is C no matter what progression those scale above always start on lydian (f). Im Gonna try dig those scales more deeper tonight
    Last edited by an_iron_panda; 02-08-2016 at 08:59 AM.

  4. #28

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    George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization

    George Russell - Storefront


    speaking of, I have a mint copy of the book if interested....

    $75.00 --don't have pay pal but will take check if interested, Or pick up in N. VA

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by an_iron_panda
    Thanks for enlightenment,Yeah, if i play first scale it just play g mix, or c ion. So, if the root is C no matter what progression those scale above always start on lydian (f).
    I think you're missing the point. The "lydian tonic" of what we normally call the C major scale is F. But that doesn't mean you "start on F" when playing. It's the exact same set of notes and you "start" wherever you like, same as if you were thinking "C major". It's just an alternative conceptual perspective.

    What vintagelove is saying (I think) is that the "lydian tonic" perspective can suggest other scales that might work which "thinking C major" would not give you.
    So if you come up with F G A B C# D E (conventionally known as "D melodic minor" or "G lydian dominant" if you use it on a G chord), you can use those notes. Again, starting anywhere. It's simply an alternative pool of notes. (You use your ear to judge how well it works.)
    Eg, thinking from F on a G7 chord might take you more "out there" if you choose F lydian dominant: F G A B C D Eb. (Aka C melodic minor, or G mixolydian b6.)

    It's still mostly just alternative labels for scales you already know, but might not think of from a conventional perspective.

    Remember the application of this concept is limited in improvisation on traditional jazz progressions (eg the typical standards from the great american songbook, major and minor keys, the old ii-V-Is etc). It's about escaping all that stuff; a way of creating new-sounding harmonies, along the lines of modal jazz, but not strictly modal either.
    Last edited by JonR; 02-17-2016 at 05:43 AM.

  6. #30

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    this is an interesting way to look at the issue of going out in an organized way. Its not the way I use, but the underlying idea is strikingly similar. My way has its own thread, 2+2=4

    In this method, you are conscious of the notes that are out of the key. That's at the forefront of how I do this, too.

    Remember that in any diatonic key there are 7 notes in and 5 notes out. By keeping track of which of those 5 notes you have used, you can imply more complex relationships. For me, those relationships are pulled from the triads in the 2 implied keys, and in this method it is accomplished by progressively adding these notes as accidentals to form new scales

    of the two approaches, this one here that vintageLove has laid out is by far the more approachable method

    by that I mean that you will be putting this kind of stuff to use in your playing a lot faster than trying to do things my way.

    I would encourage everyone to experiment with how they handle those 5 notes that are out of the key

    that's where bebop lives. If you find your own way, you'll get your own sound. That's how the old guys did it, too.

  7. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by JonR
    I think you're missing the point. The "lydian tonic" of what we normally call the C major scale is F. But that doesn't mean you "start on F" when playing. It's the exact same set of notes and you "start" wherever you like, same as if you were thinking "C major". It's just an alternative conceptual perspective.

    What vintagelove is saying (I think) is that the "lydian tonic" perspective can suggest other scales that might work which "thinking C major" would not give you.
    So if you come up with F G A B C# D E (conventionally known as "D melodic minor" or "G lydian dominant" if you use it on a G chord), you can use those notes. Again, starting anywhere. It's simply an alternative pool of notes. (You use your ear to judge how well it works.)
    Eg, thinking from F on a G7 chord might take you more "out there" if you choose F lydian dominant: F G A B C D Eb. (Aka C melodic minor, or G mixolydian b6.)

    It's still mostly just alternative labels for scales you already know, but might not think of from a conventional perspective.

    Remember the application of this concept is limited in improvisation on traditional jazz progressions (eg the typical standards from the great american songbook, major and minor keys, the old ii-V-Is etc). It's about escaping all that stuff; a way of creating new-sounding harmonies, along the lines of modal jazz, but not strictly modal either.

    Agreed. That being said, the example are a simple way you can get some of those sounds over typical bebop changes, ii V's etc. I also agree where you really start getting good stuff out of it is (for lack of a better word) "Holdsworthian" type complex harmonic music. It (being the way all the notes ring "consonantly" gives a very rich sonority to the harmonies, avoiding some of the dissonance that makes some of that music unapproachable for the average listener.

  8. #32
    destinytot Guest
    Fabulous thread - thank you!

  9. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by vintagelove

    i have a cheat sheet on pentatonic subs I can send you if you're interested, just pm me your email.
    I realise I may be a little late to the party here but i've been pondering the use of pentatonic subs for a while now and would be interested in taking a look at your 'cheat sheet' if it wouldn't pain you too much? As someone that has just started a jazz course at university I have a feeling learning the proper applications for pentatonic subs might be a slightly less painful way to start experimenting with sounds I'm less familiar with. Insert training wheels metaphor perhaps?

    In any case, thanks for dumbing down the concept of LCC for me! It is far beyond my ability to comprehend fully right now, I feel as though once i've finished my degree I may come back and try to understand your abridged version haha

    Cheers

  10. #34

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    LCC in one sentence:

    What's the beef with the C# George?

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by nick1994
    the LCC is hierarchical approach to chromaticism. that's the point of the LCC.
    Yes but I outlined Traditional Parent Key for Modal ..

    So you want Dorian - use the ENTIRE bVII Key and ALL it's Structures ..

    So D minor ...you are using Cmajor including ALL ARPS and
    The I , IV, V Pentatonics and their Relative Minors ii iii vi Minor Pentas--

    NOW - to go Outside Completely
    Shift the Major Pentatonic to #IV
    And work your way back around the Circle of Fifths to go back ' Inside', using Pentatonic.

    Based on the simple fact that any
    Major Scale and the #IV Major Pentatonic equals the Chromatic Scale.

    So you use the Pentas to add Chromatic Tones.

    No need to convert to Lydian .
    Unless you want the Lydian Parent Key which is the V Key, Mixo is the IV Key etc.

    But the Pentas are always the way ' OUT '.

  12. #36

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    One thing I noticed recently - interested if you guys hear it this way...

    Harmonically with chords I hear the brightest chords

    as 1) Major .... Ionian
    2) Non Altered Dominants next Mixolydian
    3) Major 7b5 , Major 7#11, and Major 9b5 and major 9/6 b5 etc. Major 13 b5
    so that is Lydian ..

    Those to my ears are the three brightest chord families starting with brightest or most consonant .

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa
    One thing I noticed recently - interested if you guys hear it this way...

    Harmonically with chords I hear the brightest chords

    as 1) Major .... Ionian
    2) Non Altered Dominants next Mixolydian
    3) Major 7b5 , Major 7#11, and Major 9b5 and major 9/6 b5 etc. Major 13 b5
    so that is Lydian ..

    Those to my ears are the three brightest chord families starting with brightest or most consonant .
    Russell thought Lydian was the most consonant. I don't really have any followup to that, but I remember reading in the LCC book that the Lydian mode "sounds a unity" with the Maj7 chord.

    (No, I don't have a copy of the book. My ex-gf was a music grad student and got it out of the library for me.)

  14. #38
    Sit at a piano, stack 5ths from c until you get to f, hear that? Now play f#.

  15. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Joe
    Russell thought Lydian was the most consonant. I don't really have any followup to that, but I remember reading in the LCC book that the Lydian mode "sounds a unity" with the Maj7 chord.

    (No, I don't have a copy of the book. My ex-gf was a music grad student and got it out of the library for me.)


    Sit at a piano, stack 5ths from c until you get to f, hear that? Now play f#. That’s what he meant.


    hope that helps.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by vintagelove
    Sit at a piano, stack 5ths from c until you get to f, hear that? Now play f#. That’s what he meant.
    I understand why.

    I was just kind of riffing on RobertKoa's post about the Ionian sounding brighter than Lydian. Most of the stuff I've read put Lydian at the top.

  17. #41
    Bright is the key word.

    It doesn't matter if you play the scale. If you're hearing for example the +5 as a dark b6 then the theory won't make any sense. Also keep in mind every bit can be potentially harmonically resolved. A bright harmonizing 4 is really hard to connect to. A negative 4 directly connects.

  18. #42

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    I was thinking/listening from a Chordal , Harmonic, perspective of the chords ...in modern composition not the scales.

    As I said I hear , generally, Major type Chords as Brightest, most Consonant , followed by

    Major 7 b5th, and all the Majors with flat 5ths [ Major 679 b5 etc etc ]
    Then the Major Sharp11ths [ here meaning both 5ths are present in the voicing] - although these are unusually consonant for the structure - on paper they look like they would be dissonant.
    You can do a ii - V -I to any of these
    Major b5 chords including those voicings with both n5 and flat 5th -and depending on the voicing - they are almost but NOT as consonant as Major 697 etc. but they sound beautiful- just not quite as' rest' as the pure major versions .
    And some Major b5 voicings don't even quite function as a I - they need a second resolution to complete the cadence .So slightly more dissonant than' pure 'Majors.
    Anyway that's how I hear it.


    Followed by Unaltered Dominant types - more dissonant.

    Followed by altered Dominants - most dissonant.
    Some categories overlap depends on voicing


    I don't have a workstation keyboard now ( piano) -
    but I was able to stack three perfect fifths over C on Guitar and then play an F and an F# on top .. as a voicing with two hands .

    The F# does sound more consonant , sweeter etc. not sure if that's the Overtone Series or the Intervals in the stack though.

    Thanks Vintagelove.

    Then there's the counterintuitive aspect that many of us use the Major Scale as the yardstick for intervals ( and can't sing the lydian mode ) .
    So to convert the whole "parent key system " ( if you think that way ) to
    lydian , rather than referencing Ionian- , is a big shift .
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 05-17-2020 at 08:17 AM.

  19. #43

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    I'm always interested in the opinions in respect of Mr Russell's book. I haven't come across anyone discussing any of the solo transcriptions. These include Barry Galbraith's 2 32-bar choruses on 'Not Me'. I've just played through it and very nice it is too. I'd like to hear what other people think of George Russell's analysis. I have my own ideas. I haven't heard BG's recording.

  20. #44

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    I often think of the b7 of the dominant. It’s the way Prez used to do it... Wes too.

    revisiting, these options make good sense. The Lydian dominant on IV is of course the V of melodic minor. So really it’s a very standard option that Bach used a lot.

    Russell’s theory is kind of a bit muddled. The stack of fifths idea is fudged a bit. But I’m guessing he was in fact going with his ears

  21. #45

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    yea... Love the pent connections. Personally the only door that the approach opened for me.... and this was back in the 70's, was the 3rd scale which is Harm. Major... 4th degree. Sometimes called... Lydian b3, or Min/maj#11, anyway the Harmonic Major scale and it's diatonic or modal chords... of which the 5th degree or Mixo.b9 and it's related II... became pretty standard Modal Interchange chords.

    The others were already in use , just not his organization of creating relationships and developing them.

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    yea... Love the pent connections. Personally the only door that the approach opened for me.... and this was back in the 70's, was the 3rd scale which is Harm. Major... 4th degree. Sometimes called... Lydian b3, or Min/maj#11, anyway the Harmonic Major scale and it's diatonic or modal chords... of which the 5th degree or Mixo.b9 and it's related II... became pretty standard Modal Interchange chords.

    The others were already in use , just not his organization of creating relationships and developing them.

    This is exactly the epiphany that I had when I was studying with Mike Longo and he turned me on to the LCC! All of the other "modes" were in use already and I was aware of the Harmonic Major scale but never really put it into use.

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    yea... Love the pent connections. Personally the only door that the approach opened for me.... and this was back in the 70's, was the 3rd scale which is Harm. Major... 4th degree. Sometimes called... Lydian b3, or Min/maj#11, anyway the Harmonic Major scale and it's diatonic or modal chords... of which the 5th degree or Mixo.b9 and it's related II... became pretty standard Modal Interchange chords.

    The others were already in use , just not his organization of creating relationships and developing them.
    Lot of material condensed into that post...and always great to hear Reg's ideas as an actual pro jazz guitarist. Just to clarify, is that iim7b5 to V7b9? Or is there an alternative related II? So much information to learn, so little time!

  24. #48

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    The b6 is probably the most commonly altered note in the major key. What I find interesting is that it can have a mood from ‘romantic Brahmsian sunset’ to ‘playful “wrong” note’ depending on the application.

    Ducks quack this note in my fevered imagination. WAAAAAAAAKKK

    Needless to say Barry Harris thought this note so important he incorporated it into his basic version of the major scale, which is sort of like what you get when you pool a standard Major scale in with a Harmonic Major.

    Radiohead also used this sound to death.

    Melodically I don’t find much use of this scale, as the name suggests it’s main use is a source of harmonies (even more so than harmonic minor). It’s sort of awkward gluing a Major and Hijaz tetrachord together, and seems curiously lacking in identity compared to other scales, so I always tend to conceptualise it as an alteration of Major rather than a scale in its own right.

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Needless to say Barry Harris thought this note so important he incorporated it into his basic version of the major scale, which is sort of like what you get when you pool a standard Major scale in with a Harmonic Major.
    Yes, although I imagine BH thinks of that added b6 in the major scale as a way of accessing both major and its relative minor. Same notes, different angle...

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    Yes, although I imagine BH thinks of that added b6 in the major scale as a way of accessing both major and its relative minor. Same notes, different angle...
    True…

    not one, but three scales in one, with a cheeky little enharmonic switch…..

    Cmaj6-dim encompasses
    C ionian
    C harmonic major
    A harmonic minor


    it’s clever stuff…

    He does think about this stuff with reference to Common Practice harmony…