getting mileage from blues scales

[princeplanet]

Read recently a thread that suggested that minor and major blues scales can cover most jazz progressions when soloing. Obviously using several such scales along with chromatic passing notes can get you by when doing Jazz-blues, but have there been players you have managed to find a way to sound "jazzy" enough by using mainly these scales, even against "changes" types of tunes? Maybe mixo for tonics and maj/min blues scales elsewhere?

[wizard3739]

IMHO, what you suggest will work but I would add one other thought. Add the concept "less is more" and let your ear tell you when you have too many notes.

wiz

[peterk1]

Read recently a thread that suggested that minor and major blues scales can cover most jazz progressions when soloing.

Yes, they can, but probably not in the way you're thinking (which is only play a A blues over an A7).

The key is to use non-obvious blues scales, or pentatonics, over chords to bring in the colorful notes. If you can move it around and don't always play the same scale over teh same type of chord it can get quite interesting and you move from playing outside and inside at will.

There's a great article in the latest Just Jazz Guitar magazine, where the writer guides the reader through Giant Steps using only pentatonics.

Just found an earlier article by the same guy which uses Misty as his tune....

http://instructional1.calstatela.edu...tion_using.htm

And his book.....oof... 250 pages....gives you an idea, how deep the subject is.

http://halleonard.com/item_detail.js...0&refer=search

[princeplanet]

Yes, they can, but probably not in the way you're thinking (which is only play a A blues over an A7).

The key is to use non-obvious blues scales, or pentatonics, over chords to bring in the colorful notes. If you can move it around and don't always play the same scale over teh same type of chord it can get quite interesting and you move from playing outside and inside at will.

There's a great article in the latest Just Jazz Guitar magazine, where the writer guides the reader through Giant Steps using only pentatonics.

Just found an earlier article by the same guy which uses Misty as his tune....

Jazz Guitar Improvisation Using Pentatonic Chord Scales

And his book.....oof... 250 pages....gives you an idea, how deep the subject is.

Hal Leonard Online

cheers, interesting links. oh, I did mean to infer that one may need to use several blues scales to substitute for more obvious choices, so yeah, the articles are on point. I learned early on that where there is an A7 and D7 (such as in blues) saving the A min penta/blues scale for use against the D7 sounded cool. This forces you to use other material for the A chord for contrast. From there you start to realise that using penta/blues scales not usually associated with certain chords yield interesting effects. Just wondering if there are examples of playing that take this to the nth degree. That Misty solo sounds like jazz to me, albeit a little safe and formularised. Would love to hear more examples.

[peterk1]

I think Herbie Hancock makes frequent use of pentatonic in this fashion.
Also sax player Jerry Bergonzi is one of the masters of it.

I didn't really like that Misty solo very much myself, but had more to do with the lack of interesting rythmn, than bad note choices.

[peterk1]

If you listen to Lullabye Of The Leaves on my SOundclick page, I think I used only pentatonics and blues scales for that solo as an experiment (it's about 3 mins in).

SoundClick artist: Peter Kossits - page with MP3 music downloads

[peterk1]

Just bringing this one back from the dead.

This month's Guitar Player has a (very simple) article on using pentatonics over "unexpected" chords.

Princeplanet, if you're serious about woodshedding on this concept I can throw you some ideas. In my personal lessons right now, I just happen to be working on getting milage out of pentatonics and my teacher and I are going through some very cool ideas....but it's pretty thorough and needs a bit of work to get the sounds in your ears. If you can set up a chord drone with Band in a Box or something else easily, let me know and I'll post some things for you to try out.

[princeplanet]

Just bringing this one back from the dead.

This month's Guitar Player has a (very simple) article on using pentatonics over "unexpected" chords.

Princeplanet, if you're serious about woodshedding on this concept I can throw you some ideas. In my personal lessons right now, I just happen to be working on getting milage out of pentatonics and my teacher and I are going through some very cool ideas....but it's pretty thorough and needs a bit of work to get the sounds in your ears. If you can set up a chord drone with Band in a Box or something else easily, let me know and I'll post some things for you to try out.

Sure, I'm up for it and I have BIAB.

[peterk1]

What my teacher is doing with me right now, is to examine all of the pentatonic scales and looking at what they sound like used over different types of chords and we're ranking them in order of being "inside" sounds and "outside" sounds. If all of a pentatonic scales notes are inside the scale associated with the chord, then it's completely inside. If the pentatonic contains notes outside of the scale, then the sound can start being more and more outside. We're finding that there's usually 3-4 pentatonics that can be used over each of the big chord families (dominant 7, minor 7 and maj 7) that don't sound too too crazy.

It's best to work on these playing the pent. scales all over the neck (the 5 main positions), but if you only know the form that everyone learns first, that's fine too.

So starting with the dominant 7ths, let's assume a C7 chord is what we're playing over here.

1.Cmaj pentatonic is the most inside and gives you C-D-E-G-A. You can imply a C13 by pushing the A.

So get a C7 drone going in B in a Box at a comfortable tempo (I started at 70). Run that scale is all of the positions you know in 16th notes, til your comfortable with it and then try playing some phrases for a bit.

Used in rock by some players. You can do a blues scale 3 frets down from the usual spot.

Next choice...

2. Eb maj pentatonic also works well and gives Eb(D#)-F-G-Bb-C. The Eb in this one can give you a C7#9 sound.

This is the one that all the rock players use (all the time) and is the one we all probably learned first.

Same exercise. Get comfortable with the scale all over the neck with the drone playing. Try to do some phrases not using any notes outside the pentatonic. I find that a bit frustrating to do because I always feel like I want to resolve by phrase by stepping outside the scale.

Next choice.

3. Bb maj pentatonic gives Bb-C-D-F-G. The F is the note that sticks out in this one.

Next choice.

4. F maj pentatonic gives you F-G-A-C-D. Again the F sticks out, but you have a 9th and a 13th to play with as well.

So over C7, the following pentatonic scales work well

C maj / Amin,
Eb maj/ Cmin,
F maj / D min,
Bb maj / G min.

If you get to the point of being able to switch between them on a dime (I'm nowhere close to that yet), the simple little pentatonic offers some really nice colors and possibilities.

I think I'll stop here. If there's any interest I can do the same thing for the major 7 and minor 7 chords.

[princeplanet]

What my teacher is doing with me right now, is to examine all of the pentatonic scales and looking at what they sound like used over different types of chords and we're ranking them in order of being "inside" sounds and "outside" sounds. If all of a pentatonic scales notes are inside the scale associated with the chord, then it's completely inside. If the pentatonic contains notes outside of the scale, then the sound can start being more and more outside. We're finding that there's usually 3-4 pentatonics that can be used over each of the big chord families (dominant 7, minor 7 and maj 7) that don't sound too too crazy.

It's best to work on these playing the pent. scales all over the neck (the 5 main positions), but if you only know the form that everyone learns first, that's fine too.

So starting with the dominant 7ths, let's assume a C7 chord is what we're playing over here.

1.Cmaj pentatonic is the most inside and gives you C-D-E-G-A. You can imply a C13 by pushing the A.

So get a C7 drone going in B in a Box at a comfortable tempo (I started at 70). Run that scale is all of the positions you know in 16th notes, til your comfortable with it and then try playing some phrases for a bit.

Used in rock by some players. You can do a blues scale 3 frets down from the usual spot.

Next choice...

2. Eb maj pentatonic also works well and gives Eb(D#)-F-G-Bb-C. The Eb in this one can give you a C7#9 sound.

This is the one that all the rock players use (all the time) and is the one we all probably learned first.

Same exercise. Get comfortable with the scale all over the neck with the drone playing. Try to do some phrases not using any notes outside the pentatonic. I find that a bit frustrating to do because I always feel like I want to resolve by phrase by stepping outside the scale.

Next choice.

3. Bb maj pentatonic gives Bb-C-D-F-G. The F is the note that sticks out in this one.

Next choice.

4. F maj pentatonic gives you F-G-A-C-D. Again the F sticks out, but you have a 9th and a 13th to play with as well.

So over C7, the following pentatonic scales work well

C maj / Amin,
Eb maj/ Cmin,
F maj / D min,
Bb maj / G min.

If you get to the point of being able to switch between them on a dime (I'm nowhere close to that yet), the simple little pentatonic offers some really nice colors and possibilities.

I think I'll stop here. If there's any interest I can do the same thing for the major 7 and minor 7 chords.

Hey thanks for your time. Of the listed ones for a C Dom7 chord I already use them except the D min pentatonic which sounds unworkable due to the non altered 11th (f). Actually, I'm more interested in the blues scale with the extra passing note (eg extra D# for Cmaj penta, extra f# in Cmin penta). Ot's these extra chromatic possibilities that create interest for me Eg, in a simple C6- F7 vamp , if you use the Cmaj blues for the C chord and the Cmin blues for the F7 , if you switch tastefully b/n them on the same neck position you have chromatic options galore due to a nice run of d, d#, e, f. f#, g.

The passing notes create more options in jazz, eg, Gmin penta/blues against your C7 chord yields Db which is your b9. So expanding the idea further, was hoping to get a tried and true list of options for all sorts of jazz situations where such scales could suffice. I wonder if there are any Jazz players who use mainly these scales in improv without sounding too bluesy, or too "rock"....

[timscarey]

Try using minor blues from the 3rd of a major chord (E blues on a C chord).

or from the 2nd of a minor chord (E blues on a Dminor chord)

use your ear though.

[princeplanet]

Any one here ever try a blues scale a half step up from an Alt Dom chord?

[derek]

I have posted this in the past, but since it has come up again, here goes. These are some of the subs you can use over various 7th chords. peterk1 covered some of it already.

Uses of the Minor Pentatonic Scale 1 b3 4 5 b7

• Over major CM7 use

3rd = E MP 3 5 13 7 9
EGA B D
6th = A MP 13 R 9 3 5
A CDEG
7th = B MP 7 9 3 #11 13
BDE F# A

• Over minor C-7 use Root

2nd = D MP 9 11 5 13 R
D F G A C
5th = G MP 5 b7 R 9 11
G BbCD F

3. Over dom C7 use
2nd = D MP 9 11 5 13 R
D F G A C
5th = G MP 5 b7 R 9 11
G BbCD F
6th = A MP 13 R 9 3 5
A C D EG

• Over Altered Dom use

b7 = Bb MP b7 b9 #9 4 b13
BbDbEbF Ab
#9 = Eb MP #9b5b13b7b9
EbGbAbBbDb

Hope this helps. Good luck

[princeplanet]

Nice, now there's a few I hadn't thought of! Know of any examples of players who use these ideas heavily?

[derek]

Nice, now there's a few I hadn't thought of! Know of any examples of players who use these ideas heavily?

Good question. To be honest with you, I listen more to phrasing than what scales/devices guys use. Perhaps it is just where I am developmentally.

[fast1]

I have posted this in the past, but since it has come up again, here goes. These are some of the subs you can use over various 7th chords. peterk1 covered some of it already.

Uses of the Minor Pentatonic Scale 1 b3 4 5 b7

• Over major CM7 use

3rd = E MP 3 5 13 7 9
EGA B D
6th = A MP 13 R 9 3 5
A CDEG
7th = B MP 7 9 3 #11 13
BDE F# A

• Over minor C-7 use Root

2nd = D MP 9 11 5 13 R
D F G A C
5th = G MP 5 b7 R 9 11
G BbCD F

3. Over dom C7 use
2nd = D MP 9 11 5 13 R
D F G A C
5th = G MP 5 b7 R 9 11
G BbCD F
6th = A MP 13 R 9 3 5
A C D EG

• Over Altered Dom use

b7 = Bb MP b7 b9 #9 4 b13
BbDbEbF Ab
#9 = Eb MP #9b5b13b7b9
EbGbAbBbDb

Hope this helps. Good luck

this is great, thanks!

[The Korux]

Nice, now there's a few I hadn't thought of! Know of any examples of players who use these ideas heavily?

Scott Henderson does that very often..

[JohnW400]

I don't know if these were mentioned

All against C

Db major pentonic = Alt 9 sus4 sound
D major = C lydian or Lydian Dominant sound
Eb major = Cminor or 7#9 sound
F major= Sus 4 sound, Dominant or minor
F# major = Alternate 5's and 9's sound
G major = C major sound
Ab major = 7#9, sus4 sound
Bb major = 9th ,11th sound

These two sound ok if you leave out a note

A major = 13#9 sound (leave out the B)
E major = Cma7#5 sound (leave out or change the C# to C)


The other thing this does is that it get's you to think about compund chords such as Db/C or Eb over C7

The pentatonic contains the major triad so if you took the major triads listed above and put them over a C bass or E and Bb together (or vice a versa) you get som cool chord voicings and solo ideas

[gravitas]

A cool idea I nabbed from Herbie Hancock is to use the pentatonic scales (major or minor) whose tonic notes are the same as the tones that spell the arpeggio of the chord.

Over C minor 7, he might play:

C Minor Pentatonic
Eb Minor Pentatonic
G Minor Pentatonic
Bb Minor pentatonic

Over Cmaj7, he might play:

C Major Pentatonic
E Major Pentatonic
G Major Pentatonic
B Major Pentatonic

It can sound preeetty outside, but so long as you're sure to maintain the integrity and the direction of the line, and (here's the important bit) resolve it to the next chord, it can sound pretty exciting too.

I hear Coltrane do this kind of stuff a lot... Likely Trane did it first when he started doing the whole sheets of sound thing, but I discovered it by transcribing Herbie Hancock solos.

[princeplanet]

This is great, what about ideas using pentas for "side slipping"?

[gravitas]

You mean like Michael Brecker does all over this head and solo?

[princeplanet]

You mean like Michael Brecker does all over this head and solo?

Yeah! Wow, that's not just side slipping, that's to the moon and back. I'm still learning to appreciate late Coltrane so I'm not quite excited to hear soloing that hangs outside quite so much and for quite so long. Dunno, in a way I hope I never go that way cos then you're playing for other players, ya know? Gimme Parker, Adderley or Golson, guys who knew how to slip out just enough to keep it interesting and, really, interesting enough for most of us, no? Somebody shoot me when I start tryin' to play like Brecker!

[gravitas]

It seems to me that the trait that all of the great horn players- from any era- have in common, is that when they play the notes are the furthest thing from their mind. Whatever their vocabulary, they're focused more on the overall effect of the line than the accessibility or the function of each individual note. Cannonball, Bird, Joe Lovano, Eric Dolphy, Sonny Rollins, Brecker... They've all done enough woodshedding. To me they sound like they're confident enough that whatever comes out of their horn is going to be the right kind of note theoretically at that time. As a result, they can divert more attention to contour, dynamics, tone, or what have you. Don't be turned off by notes that sound unfamiliar... You may find that Brecker and Bird have more in common than you think

[princeplanet]

It seems to me that the trait that all of the great horn players- from any era- have in common, is that when they play the notes are the furthest thing from their mind. Whatever their vocabulary, they're focused more on the overall effect of the line than the accessibility or the function of each individual note. Cannonball, Bird, Joe Lovano, Eric Dolphy, Sonny Rollins, Brecker... They've all done enough woodshedding. To me they sound like they're confident enough that whatever comes out of their horn is going to be the right kind of note theoretically at that time. As a result, they can divert more attention to contour, dynamics, tone, or what have you. Don't be turned off by notes that sound unfamiliar... You may find that Brecker and Bird have more in common than you think

Well, a few years back I studied composition at University for 5 years where the main thrust was 20th C composers, you know, serial, atonal, Schoenberg, Webern, Hindemith etc etc, so I don't find dissonance unfamiliar, infact for a while there I couldn't stand listening to diatonic music and even 50's jazz started to sound "cheesy" to me! And therein lies my point- getting too familiar with dissonance breeds a prejudice against, well, consonance! I mean, we were taught that Beethoven was "simple" and antiquated music! The equivalent in Jazz is where someone insists that Ornette Coleman is infinitely more interesting and more important than Charlie Parker, who in turn was more important than Louis Armstrong. Academically they're probably right, but I've had it with academia, I want music to go into my body, not just my brain..... man

[JC28]

Hey Guys,

I am new here, but I though I would through my two cents in

When soloing over Major Triads and Dominant Chords I combine the major and Minor pentatonics. If you look at the exercise that Peterk1 is doing with his teacher(which is a great exercise) you will see all the Notes listed are either in the C major pentatonic or C minor Pentatonic. I combine these two pentatonics all the time. Then when you add the flat 5 and Maj 7 as passing tones you really have alot to work with, yet you never have to stop thinking C pentatonic.

Playing over a Maj7 you would then switch to only Major penatonic, Playing over a Minor you would switch to minor or blues pentatonic.

Jeff