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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by wolflen

    lets meld the diminished tonics (C Eb Gb A) in some augmented chords (C E Ab)

    using the ii7 V7 chords of each dim tonic to resolve into the augmented tonic chords

    Fm7 Bb7 C minor 3rd sub
    Dmi7 G7 C diatonic
    Bmi7 E7 C major sixth sub
    Abmi7 Db7 C the ol tri-tone trick

    do the same for E augmented and then Ab aug

    Ami7 D7 E etc

    note the ii7 V7 are a minor 3rd apart(dim cycle)

    now add extensions to all chords Mi9/11 dom 9/13 Ma9 6/9 13 etc ..use inversions and wide voicings

    then mix and match some of the progressions..review Coltrane changes for insight...there will be a lot of "(ah Haa) moments...have fun
    Glad some of you are still around. I've been playing guitar for over 25 years, professionally for well over a decade (though not an authority on jazz), so I'm far from a beginner and well-versed in reading, theory, all the fundamentals. This challenges me so I can't seem to give up. I have so many questions both from this thread and the Javier Arau paper that I don't know where to begin and have considered reaching out for private lessons in AST just to get past whatever seems to be between me and making sense of all this.

    This quoted post is my first source of confusion. I think I understand the 4-tonic system and from the past couple months have made sense of the 3-tonic qualities of the augmented scale. I've been through the Chris Parrello writings and that is all completely clear.

    The confusion seems to begin when it gets to the post above (same as in the Arau paper) about melding 4-tonic with 3-tonic systems. I've studied the charts and see the connections (shared harmonies, upper extensions, relative minor/majors) so it seems like everything should make sense to me and I'm not sure why it's still baffling me.

    For my first cut and dry, clear question....when moving through the diminished cycle for each of the augmented chords, are you saying the ii7-V7 are really a minor third apart? That doesn't make sense to me unless we're sticking to just a diminished discussion. Sure, these ii-Vs are a minor 3rd apart:

    Fm7-Bb7-C
    Dm7-G7-C
    Bm7-E7-C
    Abm7-Db7-C

    If you go through E aug and A aug, something breaks down for me....

    Am7-D7-E (minor 3rd sub), etc...

    Fm7-Bb7-C ----> Am7-D7-E is clearly a major (nor minor 3rd) apart, so I assume the part above about the ii-Vs being a minor 3rd apart only has to do with the diminished cycle then, and not the meld between dim and augmented? At which point....

    I'm adding extensions to the chords/triads as advised but I have no idea what I'm looking for to see the aha moment. Like for example, Fm7 with the 9th and 11th added becomes an Eb triad on top, or an Abmaj9/F. Bb7 w/ 9, 13 could be Abmaj7+11. So Ab is the b6 gateway just like the Arau paper says. Maybe that's the aha moment I was supposed to be having. But past that what does it mean!!!??

    Sure, I get that on the Bb7 you can now cycle through C, Ab, E for cool shades and extensions that resolve back to the tonic. And on the Fm7 for example, if the upper extensions put an Eb triad on top, I see a gateway to the dominant aug scale (G-augmented). Or if you view Fm9/11 as an Abma9 then it's a gateway to the tonic aug scale but surely cycling through E is going to clash with the Eb triad present in the voicing.

    I guess I'm really confused about the pathways, what they mean, and how this stuff applies past the triadic reduction in the Parrello lesson (which made sense because it was all one augmented scale cycle and those substitutions make perfect sense to my mind).

    Anyone who can help, I'll love you forever

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  3. #52

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    the guitar being a very visual instrument (even if we no longer look at the fingerboard when playing), the symmetrical scales, diminished and augmented, present drawings that dispense to learn them in this way, which seems to me more suitable for horns

    I would say the same for diminished and augmented chords

  4. #53

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    SEAN
    The confusion seems to begin when it gets to the post above (same as in the Arau paper) about melding 4-tonic with 3-tonic systems. I've studied the charts and see the connections (shared harmonies, upper extensions, relative minor/majors) so it seems like everything should make sense to me and I'm not sure why it's still baffling me.

    For my first cut and dry, clear question....when moving through the diminished cycle for each of the augmented chords, are you saying the ii7-V7 are really a minor third apart? That doesn't make sense to me unless we're sticking to just a diminished discussion.

    Fm7-Bb7-C
    Dm7-G7-C
    Bm7-E7-C
    Abm7-Db7-C

    If you go through E aug and A aug, something breaks down for me....

    Am7-D7-E (minor 3rd sub), etc...

    Fm7-Bb7-C ----> Am7-D7-E is clearly a major (nor minor 3rd) apart, so I assume the part above about the ii-Vs being a minor 3rd apart only has to do with the diminished cycle then, and not the meld between dim and augmented? At which point....

    I'm adding extensions to the chords/triads as advised but I have no idea what I'm looking for to see the aha moment. Like for example, Fm7 with the 9th and 11th added becomes an Eb triad on top, or an Abmaj9/F. Bb7 w/ 9, 13 could be Abmaj7+11. So Ab is the b6 gateway just like the Arau paper says. Maybe that's the aha moment I was supposed to be having. But past that what does it mean!!!??

    Sure, I get that on the Bb7 you can now cycle through C, Ab, E for cool shades and extensions that resolve back to the tonic. And on the Fm7 for example, if the upper extensions put an Eb triad on top, I see a gateway to the dominant aug scale (G-augmented). Or if you view Fm9/11 as an Abma9 then it's a gateway to the tonic aug scale but surely cycling through E is going to clash with the Eb triad present in the voicing.

    I guess I'm really confused about the pathways, what they mean, and how this stuff applies past the triadic reduction in the Parrello lesson (which made sense because it was all one augmented scale cycle and those substitutions make perfect sense to my mind).

    Anyone who can help, I'll love you forever[/QUOTE]

    Confused..I cant imagine why..(wolf grin)

    of course its taking two of the most confusing scale/chords melding them together...remember in the Arau paper he says one way to see this is..the diminished (4 tonic) system is coming from a diatonic point of view and the augmented (three tonic) is coming at it from a "chromatic" point of view..this took me a good while to digest .

    now we have to remember we are using chords AND scales in this study..so for example .your confusion:..

    the Four Aug Scales...C Db D Eb (I use these root name for confusion reduction even if Im using Ab ..I think of it as C aug)

    So the C Aug scale..we have six chords embedded in it...
    CMA Cmi
    EMA Emi
    AbMa Abmi

    now..those three minor chords..they could become a ii7 in any of the following ....
    Cmi7-F7 BbMA
    Emi7 -A7-DMA
    Abmi7-Db7-GbMA

    and now we have changed to the D aug scale and its chords D Bb Gb--(both major and minor)

    (in my quest to reduce confusion I use flat notes in dim & aug studies)

    so you can use the ii7-V7 (diminished/diatonic approach) and have them resolve to a Augmented series(chromatic approach)

    and you can keep going through each series of minor third chord subs and have them resolve to the Root of the Augmented Chord

    so:

    Emi7-A7-DMA---diatonic (2-5)
    Gmi7-C7-DMA--minor 3rd sub-2-5--(the minor third of D is F..Gmi7 C7 is the 2-5 of F)
    Bbmi7-Eb7-DMA--Tri-Tone sub--2-5 of Ab7
    Dbmi-Gb7-DMA--major 6th -2-5 sub

    so you can see each 2-5 sequence is a minor 3rd from each other ..thus it is "diminished" in that respect..but they are being used to resolve to a Augmented Root chord..D (GB Bb)

    I know this is "Crazy" making stuff..ok

    so being that there are Three major chords in the D aug acale--D Gb Bb..use the 2-5 subs to resolve to Gb and Bb and see how that sounds

    then experiment with the above..use the (any) ii7 chord as a jumping off point to start a new cycle in a different aug scale

    I dont know if this helps you..I hope it clears up a bit of your confusion...FWIW I worked (and still working) on this kind of stuff for years until it began to seep into my playing..I just started a study of the "Super Augmented Scale" which is two augmented scales combined....hey..Dont say it...

  5. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by wolflen
    so being that there are Three major chords in the D aug acale--D Gb Bb..use the 2-5 subs to resolve to Gb and Bb and see how that sounds

    then experiment with the above..use the (any) ii7 chord as a jumping off point to start a new cycle in a different aug scale

    I dont know if this helps you..I hope it clears up a bit of your confusion...FWIW I worked (and still working) on this kind of stuff for years until it began to seep into my playing..I just started a study of the "Super Augmented Scale" which is two augmented scales combined....hey..Dont say it...
    Thank you!!! You're one of the main people I really wanted to talk to about this. Yes, that actually clears up quite a bit of confusion (significantly actually). I still have quite a few questions and things I haven't yet wrapped my head around but I'll keep chipping away at it relentlessly.

    Can you give an example of using any ii7 chord as a jumping off point to start a new cycle in a different aug scale? I just want to make sure I'm understanding what you're saying since I'm still working super-hard to make the leap from intellect to sound.

    Are you saying to use the complete ii-V and then resolve to a different aug tonic, so that instead of Em7-A7-D(F#/Bb) to try Em7-A7-C(E/Ab) among other possibilities?

    I'll hit it fresh in the morning. It's really no joke I'm working around the clock to make sense of this. Not sure why I want it so badly but I practice obsessively and for some reason have to make sense of this for my own well-being. I really genuinely appreciate your input

  6. #55

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    One question I have on the excellent original post, he's stating that the augmented scale contains 3 major and 3 minor triads. Is he referring to the multitonic nature of this scale actually implying and supporting these triads despite not actually containing them? (as the augmented scale contains no major or minor triads)? Or am I understanding something wrong?

    I've mostly practiced the augmented scale two ways, and usually over dominant chords. First one is actually using the scale to play over a dominant chord, the way I would use the altered or diminished scale, as a different chord scale color to go out and create tension.

    Second one is theoretical and doesn't actually involve directly playing the scale. When looking at say a G7 resolving to Cmaj7, thinking G augmented scale as a color, 6 roots come up, the six notes of this scale. I take the six augmented triads that the scale actually contains, and make them into major triads (or even 4 note dominant arpeggios).

    Since we are originally on a dominant G7 chord whose function is to create tension, this works as intended, creating even more tension since it is more out. Now I am not playing the augmented scale but just combining and voice leading major triad arpeggios, or even using different chord scales over them, in various combinations. Might be voice leading one or more at a time, or, one of the easier and best sounding combinations, using three major triads, two tones apart (G7 B7 Eb7). You don't play the augmented scale, but play triads whose roots distances imply it. It becomes an exercise in voice leading and seeing triads and arpeggios on the fretboard.

    Same thing can be done with the diminished scale. Where the augmented one is about a three tone tonic center, the diminished is about a four tonic one. Same process, different major triads or dominant arpeggios (On G7 they would be G7 Bb7 Db7 E7).

    The biggest challenge for me is to make this sound like jazz and not like fusion. It's subtle and not that common, but mainstream players do use it. And I've had Richie Hart demonstrating that stuff while sounding extra traditional so I know it's possible!
    This thread is like, months of practice, condensed in a few lines of text! Endless!

  7. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    One question I have on the excellent original post, he's stating that the augmented scale contains 3 major and 3 minor triads. Is he referring to the multitonic nature of this scale actually implying and supporting these triads despite not actually containing them? (as the augmented scale contains no major or minor triads)? Or am I understanding something wrong?
    I'm obviously still learning this too but there definitely are 3 major and 3 minor triads in the augmented scale. C-augmented scale is a C-aug and B-aug stacked on top of one another. This is in the Chris Parello lesson linked earlier in the thread and I'll chime back in tomorrow but it's nearly 2 am here at the moment and I have to surrender to sleep. Short answer is write out C-aug scale on paper and look at the tones. It definitely contains C-E-Ab major as well as C-E-Ab minor, as well as C-E-Ab aug. The multitonic nature is that it contains those three tonal centers a major third apart (i.e. ala Coltrane Changes....C down to Ab down to E for example)

  8. #57

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    I always thought this was a good video.


  9. #58

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    Reading more carefully, I see the scale the op was referring to. I was thinking of the whole tone scale, which I often associate with augmented triads. Thread becoming more interesting!