The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 6 of 9 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast
Posts 126 to 150 of 209
  1. #126

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by monk
    Mark,
    There's really no such thing as a minor flat five triad. A minor triad with a flatted fifth is a diminished triad.
    Regards,
    Jerome
    That might not be the best way to think of it, though. If we're talking seventh chords, I like to distinguish between a m7b5 (II function) and a half diminished (dominant function), so I could see thinking of a diminished triad as a minorb5 if you're thinking about it in a subdominant function. (But yes, the triads would be the same)

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #127

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Joe
    That might not be the best way to think of it, though. If we're talking seventh chords, I like to distinguish between a m7b5 (II function) and a half diminished (dominant function), so I could see thinking of a diminished triad as a minorb5 if you're thinking about it in a subdominant function. (But yes, the triads would be the same)
    That's quite funny because I'm in the process of amalgamating all iim7b5 chords into (backdoor) dominants in my playing. I don't see the functions as different. (Barry again.) The less chords there are, the easier the soloing, right?

    Bm7b5 = G7

    Bm7b5 E7b9 Am6 = G7 G#o7 Am6

    On the other hand I am on a heavy baroque harmony kick at the moment, and that's another way of looking at it again. No inversion theory, no functions in the modern sense, just intervallic counterpoint on the bass. Heavy!

    In this sense what we call a minor ii-V, is all about the 7 (A) going to #6 (G#) on the B against the static 3rd (D), and then resolving to a 5 3 on A (D-->C, G#-->A, no 5th in this voice leading, unless we expand to 4 voices.)

    All in A minor, using the harmonic alterations for a G#-A resolution. There is only movement within the scale of the key in the baroque understanding... Kind of reminds me of Barry Harris actually...
    Last edited by christianm77; 08-19-2016 at 02:46 PM.

  4. #128

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by monk
    Mark,
    There's really no such thing as a minor flat five triad. A minor triad with a flatted fifth is a diminished triad.
    Regards,
    Jerome
    This is true. But when one is stacking triads extracted from seventh-chords it is easier (for some of us, at least) to think that way. The chord is a minor-seven-flat-five; in this exercise, one is just playing three of its chord tones.

  5. #129

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    That's quite funny because I'm in the process of amalgamating all iim7b5 chords into (backdoor) dominants in my playing. I don't see the functions as different. (Barry again.) The less chords there are, the easier the soloing, right?

    Bm7b5 = G7

    Bm7b5 E7b9 Am6 = G7 G#o7 Am6

    On the other hand I am on a heavy baroque harmony kick at the moment, and that's another way of looking at it again. No inversion theory, no functions in the modern sense, just intervallic counterpoint on the bass. Heavy!

    In this sense what we call a minor ii-V, is all about the 7 (A) going to #6 (G#) on the B against the static 3rd (D), and then resolving to a 5 3 on A (D-->C, G#-->A, no 5th in this voice leading, unless we expand to 4 voices.)

    All in A minor, using the harmonic alterations for a G#-A resolution. There is only movement within the scale of the key in the baroque understanding... Kind of reminds me of Barry Harris actually...
    Hi Christian,

    Interesting stuff, by "back door" are you thinking
    Dminor (of some type)
    G7 (no alterations)
    Am6

    I see D minor and Bm7b5 as the same thing in this context.

    The only thing I didn't quite get is even if you think G7 G#dim Am6

    Are you not still having to deal with 3 chords?

    As I'm know you know this but the G#dim is just E7b9 right? I'm not sure where this can help?

  6. #130

    User Info Menu

    Look I done a video! :-)



    I'm not thinking about D minor at all. Backdoor means coming from a tone below in my mind. You can put Dm in there, but that's implicit in my opinion. Every V can be given a ii. They are decoration, not structural.

    You use G7 as Bm7b5 - bascially treating Bm7b5 as a G9 with no bass note.

    That's a G7 with no alterations, G mixolydian/dominant scale and all its associated paraphernalia - the family of four (G7, Bm7b5, Dm7, Fmaj7), bebop scale runs, patterns in thirds, triads and seventh chords with and without chromatic neighbour tones, honeysuckle rose, etc etc, you get the picture.

    (I mean you could use G7#11 too, doesn't matter, but let's keep it simple for now.)

    When you hit up the dominant (E7b9) or - in fact - wherever you fancy, you raise the G to a G# and keep going. The G and G# are completely flexible and up for grabs. But what the G# does is create more gravity pulling you towards the A minor as opposed to the C major. What we would call an interrupted cadence in classical theory, right?

    Take a look at some bop heads and look carefully at what happens over a VI7b9, for instance. Donna Lee is a fantastic example of all of this stuff in operation, I learned a tremendous amount from it.
    Last edited by christianm77; 08-20-2016 at 03:25 PM.

  7. #131

    User Info Menu

    Christian knows his stuff. His contributions here are very valuable.



    Bm7b5 - E7

    Barry would say;

    "Down the G7 Scale (from the 7th) to the third of E7." (For a one bar phrase)

    "Up and down the G7 Scale (to the 7th and down) to the third of E7." (For a two bar phrase)

    Note the G7 and E7 scale are a minor third apart; Sisters & Brothers.

  8. #132

    User Info Menu

    I wrote an exercise on this for a blues (for students.) Here's a link. Check out how the Bo7 and D7b9 chords are handled.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/kcjzrr47x2...Blues.pdf?dl=0

    EDIT: tab needs looking at - just Sibelius default....
    Last edited by christianm77; 08-20-2016 at 08:09 PM.

  9. #133

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I wrote an exercise on this for a blues (for students.) Here's a link. Check out how the Bo7 and D7b9 chords are handled.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/kcjzrr47x2...Blues.pdf?dl=0

    EDIT: tab needs looking at - just Sibelius default....

    That's the real deal.

  10. #134

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Look I done a video! :-)



    I'm not thinking about D minor at all. Backdoor means coming from a tone below in my mind. You can put Dm in there, but that's implicit in my opinion. Every V can be given a ii. They are decoration, not structural.

    You use G7 as Bm7b5 - bascially treating Bm7b5 as a G9 with no bass note.

    That's a G7 with no alterations, G mixolydian/dominant scale and all its associated paraphernalia - the family of four (G7, Bm7b5, Dm7, Fmaj7), bebop scale runs, patterns in thirds, triads and seventh chords with and without chromatic neighbour tones, honeysuckle rose, etc etc, you get the picture.

    (I mean you could use G7#11 too, doesn't matter, but let's keep it simple for now.)

    When you hit up the dominant (E7b9) or - in fact - wherever you fancy, you raise the G to a G# and keep going. The G and G# are completely flexible and up for grabs. But what the G# does is create more gravity pulling you towards the A minor as opposed to the C major. What we would call an interrupted cadence in classical theory, right?

    Take a look at some bop heads and look carefully at what happens over a VI7b9, for instance. Donna Lee is a fantastic example of all of this stuff in operation, I learned a tremendous amount from it.
    Thanks Christian, great stuff lovely playing.

    Yes I watched your video I sort of missed the last 10 seconds which I where I feel you say it all.

    I see where you are coming from now, I'll have to look into the BH method, I did read through a chapter of two of AK book was very well presented, like anything though it will take me some serious shedding to feel free with it.

  11. #135

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    When you hit up the dominant (E7b9) or - in fact - wherever you fancy, you raise the G to a G# and keep going. The G and G# are completely flexible and up for grabs. But what the G# does is create more gravity pulling you towards the A minor as opposed to the C major. What we would call an interrupted cadence in classical theory, right?

    Take a look at some bop heads and look carefully at what happens over a VI7b9, for instance. Donna Lee is a fantastic example of all of this stuff in operation, I learned a tremendous amount from it.
    That rising diminished run from the G# you do at 3:40 is something I noticed Bird doing a lot when I started trying to learn some bop lines from the records. It's good to go into the theoretical understanding of why it works, I never really used to think about that much, I was just in a hurry to get the sounds down!

  12. #136

    User Info Menu

    Yes I noticed Bird and other bop players heavily using this scale and of course various diminished runs a few years before I started seriously working on the Barry Harris approach.

    The BH thing can seem a bit awkward at first, but I have learned to appreciate the way it allows you to extend the use of your pre-existing dominant material. In fact, what you learn is not new material itself but the a new way to resolve. It would be the same with the IV7-I and bII7-I cadences, for example.

    In contrast, the way I was looking at it before - mode of V of harmonic minor, required me to learn a while new bunch of material and practice it through a new scale. Instead, you learn to resolve up a tone (a common thing in bop for major keys, too) and get used to moving that one note up a semitone.
    Last edited by christianm77; 08-21-2016 at 05:50 AM.

  13. #137

    User Info Menu

    This is what Barry Harris and Roni Ben-Hur refer to as the "minor's dominant" in their materials(?)

  14. #138

    User Info Menu

    Okay I watched that video and having gone through that BH stuff myself ( through Alan and Ronnie's books ) but at a much lower level as a player, I tend to think of Ways to make it much more simple for me.

    The standard ii-V for me becomes ii-7--ii-6. ( ii-6= vii-7b5, note that the V7 and the iiv7b5 have the same basic interchangeable functionality in tonal music .).

    Anytime I see a dominant chord , I can play around it in a few different ways --- (q) either go up a half step and play a minor six, or go down one full step and play a m7b5. Thus instead of, in the key of F, instead of a C7, play a Db-6 ( or even D-69) or a Bbm7b5. These chords are interchangeable , (2) sub the G minor sixth or the E-7b5 for the C7 (3) sub the C° for the C7. (4) straight out tritone sub of the secondary dominant, or Gb7.

    Even this is a shit load of stuff for me to really think about and internalize. I am nowhere near finished internalizing it.

  15. #139

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by David B
    This is what Barry Harris and Roni Ben-Hur refer to as the "minor's dominant" in their materials(?)
    I think so IIRC.

  16. #140

    User Info Menu

    So I have a question of how to practice the basic premise of Barry Harris's method: dominance to consonance. The expression of the fundamental 5-1 cadence.

    Let's say we limit ourselves to, for example the key of F. And let's further add the following limitations: working with a particular region of the fretboard and A particular string set. Let's for example limit ourselves to drop 2, F major, first four strings. Let's limit ourselves further by concentrating the tonic chord into the voice dispersion of 1563 ( basically third position ) and 3615 ( sixth position )

    I can immediately think of six separate grips to express the dominant V dissonance ( various degrees ) against this F6 chord ---

    C7


    Db-6
    G-6
    Gb7

    All of these grips are readily available and interchangeable in the given positions we have defined, and often, changing one for the other will only change a note or have a minor change on the voicing.

    How would you imagine practicing the six chords together, either as block chords, as block chords that can be arpeggiated, or as lines ?

  17. #141

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    So I have a question of how to practice the basic premise of Barry Harris's method: dominance to consonance. The expression of the fundamental 5-1 cadence.

    Let's say we limit ourselves to, for example the key of F. And let's further add the following limitations: working with a particular region of the fretboard and A particular string set. Let's for example limit ourselves to drop 2, F major, first four strings. Let's limit ourselves further by concentrating the tonic chord into the voice dispersion of 1563 ( basically third position ) and 3615 ( sixth position )

    I can immediately think of six separate grips to express the dominant V dissonance ( various degrees ) against this F6 chord ---

    C7


    Db-6
    G-6
    Gb7

    All of these grips are readily available and interchangeable in the given positions we have defined, and often, changing one for the other will only change a note or have a minor change on the voicing.

    How would you imagine practicing the six chords together, either as block chords, as block chords that can be arpeggiated, or as lines ?
    The BH improvisation approach is ultimately scale based. Without giving a very long answer I will say just taking the family of four (seventh chords on 1 3 5 b7 of each dominant) alone for each of the three main dominant scales (V7, bVII7, bII7) you have 12 possibilities right off the bat, 16 if you add in the minor's dominant for the bVII7.

    Thats just for starters.

    BUT - that's not the point. We are playing melodies that move in thirds, triads, chords or steps through the scale and threading them through the changes. The harmony is to some extent emergent from that. You practice melodies and language.
    Last edited by christianm77; 08-22-2016 at 08:08 PM.

  18. #142

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    The BH improvisation approach is ultimately scale based. Without giving a very long answer I will say just taking the family of four (seventh chords on 1 3 5 b7 of each dominant) alone for each of the three main dominant scales (V7, bVII7, bII7) you have 12 possibilities right off the bat, 16 if you add in the minor's dominant for the bVII7.

    Thats just for starters.

    BUT - that's not the point. We are playing melodies that move in thirds, triads, chords or steps through the scale and threading them through the changes. The harmony is to some extent emergent from that. You practice melodies and language.
    I think my brain just melted from all the possibilities. The end they say is listless .

    I think I will try, as an experimentstion, basically what Pasquale demonstrated in his master class videos, but use all the various groups and chord changes and substitutions, not just the M-m6 chords against the diminished ( I.e., the harmonized chord scales) -----> completely master all the grips to make them completely interchangeable at whim without thinking and to reduce and simplify the issue to a a basic right-hand problem and work on right hand development and practice all sorts of arpeggio patterns against all of the interchangeable grips and ( envelope, please ) ...................................see what they sound like.

    Pasquale hybrid picks Chuck Wayne style, I'll just have to do the PIMA .

    By the way, Pasqualle just released a third master class. At the same time that the associated website was hacked and destroyed. Apparently it's being rebuilt.

  19. #143

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    I think my brain just melted from all the possibilities. The end they say is listless .

    I think I will try, as an experimentstion, basically what Pasquale demonstrated in his master class videos, but use all the various groups and chord changes and substitutions, not just the M-m6 chords against the diminished ( I.e., the harmonized chord scales) -----> completely master all the grips to make them completely interchangeable at whim without thinking and to reduce and simplify the issue to a a basic right-hand problem and work on right hand development and practice all sorts of arpeggio patterns against all of the interchangeable grips and ( envelope, please ) ...................................see what they sound like.

    Pasquale hybrid picks Chuck Wayne style, I'll just have to do the PIMA .

    By the way, Pasqualle just released a third master class. At the same time that the associated website was hacked and destroyed. Apparently it's being rebuilt.
    I must have got lucky as I managed to download the other two

  20. #144

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I must have got lucky as I managed to download the other two
    I need a roadmap. Especially when you add this to the four different ways of playing with the dominant as put forth by John Stowell---take any dominant 7th chord (135b7) EG, (C7) and play either a melodic minor (12b34567) or harmonic minor scale or arpeggio that is:

    A whole tone below (Bb melodic minor)
    A half step above (C# MM)
    A perfect forth above (F MM)
    A perfect fifth above (G MM)

    All this information is useless unless it is fully internalized
    It's impossible to half ass and dabble in it, you got to get into the muck of it all and remain in the swamp for a good long time

  21. #145

    User Info Menu

    Still following that conversation... well done you two Christian that video sounded great. NSJ you're probably a lot further ahead than I am, but if I may venture a suggestion, why not work out some some limitations. Maybe according to context, letting the melodic and harmonic "world" a particular tune lives in narrow down the possibilities and taking it from there, so that different tunes illustrate different possibilities. Or maybe I'm talking out of my *** and you've already thought about this.

  22. #146

    User Info Menu

    The best way I have found to get my head round the Barry Harris chord possibilities is to play around with it on one tune at a time. Usually something fairly simple e.g. I've been doing Blue Bossa the last few days.

  23. #147

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    I need a roadmap. Especially when you add this to the four different ways of playing with the dominant as put forth by John Stowell---take any dominant 7th chord (135b7) EG, (C7) and play either a melodic minor (12b34567) or harmonic minor scale or arpeggio that is:

    A whole tone below (Bb melodic minor)
    A half step above (C# MM)
    A perfect forth above (F MM)
    A perfect fifth above (G MM)

    All this information is useless unless it is fully internalized
    It's impossible to half ass and dabble in it, you got to get into the muck of it all and remain in the swamp for a good long time
    Generally I've kind of tried to get one thing in my playing at a time. It takes so long to learn anything it's what I have to do. I spent a couple of months on b7 pivot arpeggios on dominants (and now it's just about everywhere in my playing.)
    Last edited by christianm77; 08-23-2016 at 10:41 AM.

  24. #148

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Generally I've kind of tried to get one thing in my playing at a time. It takes so long to learn anything it's what I have to do. I spent a couple of months on b7 sub pivots (and now it's just about everywhere in my playing.)

    I guess as someone who has only been playing for a few years, I still have to focus on everything and get as much in.

    But it's true, obviously, it takes a long time to internalize any essential concept . I practiced a shit load, months on end, of playing intervals and dyads, and now I feel like I can play thirds, sixths, tenths, thirteens and tritones, somewhat naturally, without thinking consciously. I practiced a shit load of the drop two and drop three Barry Harris harmonized diminished scale. It's only starting to feel natural Now, but only just .

    to widen the pallet in any significant and meaningful way that sort of becomes ingrained and a part of one's playing takes a long long long time. At least for me .

    The collateral fact is that I understand and can navigate around the fingerboard easier, which will make other tasks less difficult . Sometimes, half the job is really becoming familiar with the workspace .

  25. #149

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    I guess as someone who has only been playing for a few years, I still have to focus on everything and get as much in.

    But it's true, obviously, it takes a long time to internalize any essential concept . I practiced a shit load, months on end, of playing intervals and dyads, and now I feel like I can play thirds, sixths, tenths, thirteens and tritones, somewhat naturally, without thinking consciously. I practiced a shit load of the drop two and drop three Barry Harris harmonized diminished scale. It's only starting to feel natural Now, but only just .

    to widen the pallet in any significant and meaningful way that sort of becomes ingrained and a part of one's playing takes a long long long time. At least for me .

    The collateral fact is that I understand and can navigate around the fingerboard easier, which will make other tasks less difficult . Sometimes, half the job is really becoming familiar with the workspace .
    IMO it's better to learn one thing excellently than try to learn everything. I would advise my students to focus on one thing. I've got on fella working on m6 arpeggios in every position and around the cycle of fourths. Another guy is just focussing on the b7 sub (he's a more modern cat), another guy is working on triads through a blues and so on....

    If you can decide what to practice and focus on it that is half the battle. I have this problem myself. That's why having a teacher is helpful....

  26. #150

    User Info Menu

    http://www.jazzguitarlife.com/Wes%20...Techniques.pdf

    Thought some may find this interesting.