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Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
I really like Hal Galper as well. I find it makes a really interesting counterpart to Barry's teaching. I got a lot out of Forward Motion, still do.
Anyway - this is no doubt familiar to you - but I attach a quick and pretty simple set of lines based on what I was talking about above... Very straightforward stuff, but just to demonstrate really the sort of thing I mean...
Down the scale, then up in a stack of thirds (arpeggios) which seemed typical of the types of things Barry was running in ensemble in the improvisation workshop... Also seen similar things in other Barry related resources online.
The process, of course, spits out very typical bop exercises of the type you would encounter in most textbooks. I've only sketched out some simple variations - there are dozens of other things you can do with this basic idea. The room for variation & invention is practically limitless.
If you were analysing this from a different perspective you might use the understanding in red pen - i.e. this arpeggio over G7 - G7, Bm7b5, Dm7/6, Fmaj7 ('the family of four'). In Barry's understanding you don't need to think this way as everything comes from a melodic development of the scale - down the scale, adding notes as appropriate, then up in thirds. If I've understood this right.
The advantage over more chordal thinking AFAIK, is that if you get these rules plugged in so that they are intuitive, you can start to run lines that are idiomatic bop without ever resorting to licks.Last edited by christianm77; 03-19-2016 at 12:02 PM.
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03-19-2016 11:52 AM
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03-19-2016, 12:10 PM #52destinytot GuestOriginally Posted by MarkRhodes
On the one hand, I'm curious to know more - and I intend to read his work. But on the other hand, it seems to be prompting me towards taking advantage of forum member jordanklemons's generous sharing of his MA thesis (on triads +1) by putting it next to recordings of Sean Levitt - and putting on my thinking cap.
Recordings of Sean aren't indicative of his typical live sets, during which he played Parker in ways that left few listeners unmoved (some of us found it a life-changing experience) and which he always ended with The Theme (I miss hearing tthat).
Sean sounded like no-one but himself - even when playing Wes or Bird - and I wish I'd taken advantage of the chance to hear him with Barry Harris.
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Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
I went to a few BH workshops over the years. It was a bit frustrating because I couldn't get the time to go to a run of the workshops, but in addition with online materials, I've started to piece together the bigger picture.
There are loads of great BH patterns such as thirds with a semitone before...
B C E C# D F D# E | G etc
Pivots on arpeggios (one of my favourites) and so on... Loads of things you can do to lines to make language... It's an approach with a lot of depth. Like I say the thing I like about it is that you can start with pretty basic scales (i.e. the mixolydian or the melodic minor) and develop them into endlessly flowing melodic lines that sound like bebop. It's a fantastic approach and the only thing is that I can always think of so many variations of the basic material that it can be a bit overwhelming - just take the sheet I posted above.
- try pivots on the arpeggios - 1st note, 2nd note etc
- start the line on a non-chord tone on G7
- use a longer scale and/or arpeggio line
- can we do it in 3?
- try it in minor
- Instead of using G dominant, run the same patterns through D melodic minor using the appropriate passing tones
And so on and so forth.
The thing is increasingly I can't help viewing things I am learning - Along Came Betty, for example - through the Barry Harris prism. I might write out an analysis of it...
Interesting link. I certainly know what you meanLast edited by christianm77; 03-19-2016 at 03:50 PM.
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Barry will drop nuggets of jazz wisdom without emphasis. I've attended many workshops and would occasionally selfishly think 'he said this last time, I'm not hearing anything new' and then one day I'd hear something for the umpteenth time and be ready to understand it. The scope of what he is telling us is so exciting.
My take on Barry's teaching is that he imparts a compact amount of theory with vast potential.
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Originally Posted by NSJ
In many ways it is ironic that Barry really talks about all the different aspects of the songs with all details of functional harmony and then his own scale system is reducing everything to I and V. That was always a mystery to me.
I don't think Wes used Barry Harris stuff, he just used dim chords as dominants to harmonize lines. That technique is very old and is not something that Barry can take credit for (I also don't think he would). The fact that he made it into a scale and gave it a name does not mean he invented the harmonization technique.
Jens
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Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
Jens
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Originally Posted by JensL
AFAIK the idea is less about playing vertically over the changes all the time but introducing a flow of harmony or harmonic melody through the song that contains all the important basic resolutions and modulations etc, and if needs be, can support the melody - getting away from all that ii V I stuff, playing out of the arpeggios all the time etc (not that that isn't an important basic thing to be able to do.)
I really like that ethos.
In the Barry Harris system, scales have their own tensions and releases both in harmony and melody and the system gives you a way to manage this very specifically, while with modal jazz you have more static or colouristic scales that just sit there. BH's scales are dynamic and create a functional tonal dynamism. At least that's how I view it in my own playing.
If I play the lydian on a major seventh or something, I am articulating the extended sound of the chord - it's not important where I put my chord tones because every note is a chord tone in a sense. This is not true with the major scale.Last edited by christianm77; 03-20-2016 at 07:20 AM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Originally Posted by christianm77
Originally Posted by christianm77
Jens
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Originally Posted by JensL
Originally Posted by JensL
The 6th/diminished 7th thing through the scale is the absolute basics, the ABC to get you started. It's the same thing as four way close writing which has been around since Fletcher Henderson. It's simply one way of going through the scale that produces an immediately musical and useful result. But a lot of people only get that far and go 'so what? That stuff's in the Jazz Piano Book.'
The BH stuff has a particular harmonic style. If you had Cmaj7 or Fmaj7 in the key of C, these chords would contain combinations of borrowed notes and notes belonging to the C6. You would then have a number of options to voice lead these chords into a resolution through the scale in beautiful and elegant ways. For example:
Fmaj7 E/F C6
Dm9 Fminmaj7/G C6
Dm7/A G13/Ab C6/9
And so on. Not just V-I. The thing is you wouldn't be thinking of these chord symbols, you'd be thinking of the scale and the movement and these movements would emerge naturally, in the same way the Bach isn't really reflected by writing his harmony down in chord symbols....
TBH I'm not the best person to ask if you want to learn more on this because my studies recently have focussed mostly on the single note stuff. Im thinking the Pasquale Grasso video might address this material...
Originally Posted by JensLLast edited by christianm77; 03-20-2016 at 08:48 AM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Originally Posted by christianm77
Originally Posted by christianm77
I understand that you can experiement with it and then use the nice stuff that you find (As far as I can tell from the piano workshops, that is also how Barry works btw..) But in order to use it you still need to reduce the music you want to use it in down to V and I bits or chunks of different more or less related six dim scales.
Did you ever try to come up with a six dim scale for the altered scale?
Originally Posted by christianm77
Barry was a guest teacher for a week every year at the conservatory where I studied and I attended the workshop twice before I started. I did actually spend some time on his stuff.
Jens
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Christian is right. The Barry Harris stuff initially looks as if it is just alternating 6th chords and diminished chords if you just run through the chord charts and leave it there.
But if you really apply it to actual tunes to create chord melody or chord solo type ideas, it really starts to take off.
By borrowing notes (or 'tweaking' them to use Randy Vincent's phrase, which I like because it implies a slightly less strict approach than Barry's borrowing rules), you can get just about any extension you want on the chords, but still preserving the simplicity of the overall method.
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For a six dim scale on the altered dominant you just play bII minor 6 dim scale.
So on G7 alt you can play Barry's Ab minor sixth diminished chord scale. And of course you can sub it with diminished chords (e.g. F dim and the other 3 that go with it), so that's 2 ways of covering it.
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Barry was a guest teacher for a week every year at the conservatory where I studied and I attended the workshop twice before I started. I did actually spend some time on his stuff.
Jens
I'm not a Barry evangelist, and TBH defending or explaining his theory has taken up to much time already. It works for me, I like it - I would say that it's a great way to learn about bop and I would recommend it to students of that music. But ultimately, take it or leave it.
For me I had to spend a lot of time on his material independently. TBH I attended his workshops on and off for around a decade and only really got into the very basics. TBH I got totally roasted in the improvisation class, learned very little in the actual class beyond the block chord thing (which took enough time) and the basic added note scales. But I remember what he was doing, and that's allowed me to work on it myself, in addition to checking out various online resources by him and his students.
It was really getting into the basic added note scale stuff on my own that piqued my interest as to what I else I could get into. I'd always had loads of respect for the guy, loved his playing, but hadn't always been able to follow what he was talking about in workshops (very soft spoken, lots of people crowding around the piano etc.)
I don't see where the argument is really. Either you go down the Barry Harris rabbit hole or you don't. But it's something that takes serious dedicated study to really get into...Last edited by christianm77; 03-20-2016 at 09:40 AM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Surely if the system is such a great way to learn jazz then you guys can show me in some way? Take 16 bars of "I love you" or "All of You" and explain it according to the 6th dim system or demonstrate a great harmonization of the melody that you make using that.
Don't just tell me that it goes really deep and can explain everything bebop or beyond functional harmony, why do I have to believe you if you don't want to explain it to me?
For me the 6th dim thing was always just a framework for experimenting, so regardless of the key (I think the alt scale example from Graham illustrates that quite well?) You force a maj6 or min6 sound over a chord and then start experimenting with what sort of chords you can get out of it. That is also how I've seen Barry use it in the piano classes.
You have to realize that I find that ok for a system, a lot of great music can be made like that, and I think it is fine tool for experimentation. I just don't like when it is turned into a grand unifying theory without any substantial argument as to why it is so great. That is my criticism.
I am also not really happy with reducing II V I to V I because it makes you end up practicing your A7b9 to G7 lines in C. That said if you chose the right standard it can be a very good way to introduce and practice scales similar to what he demonstrates in the video and I have used that in lessons.
Jens
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03-20-2016, 11:16 AM #65destinytot GuestOriginally Posted by JensL
Without wishing to cross a line by being personal, I've watched some of your videos and I've been very impressed by your teaching. And on the subject of compelling argument, it was very refreshing to hear you say 'why' - with such rare clarity - in your recent video on practising scales.
Nothing but love and admiration for BH - as a man and as a unique educator - and, personally, I have little time for styles (especially 'jazz' guitar styles) outside the music he champion s... but they do exist.
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Originally Posted by JensL
Barry Harris chord movements - My Romance
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Originally Posted by grahambop
Nice arrangement! It's hard to really use the borrowed notes for inner voice movement on a tune as busy as that, which is what I always like about the Barry Harris stuff, but your example illustrates the harmonization and some of the options very well.
Jens
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Originally Posted by destinytot
In all fairness to Christian I do like a good discussion and can get a bit lost in them because it's entertaining. Though I do stand by everything I've said about it as a system.
Jens
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Originally Posted by JensL
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Originally Posted by JensL
Secondly: as I have said, my central area of study with BH's material has not been his harmony stuff. It's been the single note improvisation material. My harmonic stuff ATM is based on the usual stuff - drop harmony, standard voice leading, triads, a bit of CST intervallic stuff - not too much of Barry's stuff. So I feel ill-qualified to discuss Barry's harmony with you even if I felt motivated to do so. (But I do feel I can discuss the improvisation stuff.)
Ask Graham, or Alan, they have a better grasp of the harmony material. But I do know that there is a long way you can go with it if you study it...
Anyway It's not a grand unifying theory. It's not consistent in that way. If it's been presented to you that way, than that's inaccurate IMO.
BTW I Love You (or any Cole Porter tunes) works beautifully with Barry's system, as I understand it.
But in any case, I'm not terribly interested in winning over a convert. Either you get the bug for it, or you don't. You can't study everything. You play great. Why argue?Last edited by christianm77; 03-20-2016 at 02:57 PM.
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Originally Posted by JensL
Whereas with the harmonic minor stuff for example - I feel I worked all of that out myself, by transcribing and observing. It's different from being taught something top down.
The BH stuff acts as an overarching framework I can slot everything into. It's a bit annoying in a way, because I had MY theory dammit :-)
All I can say is that I like the BH stuff and there's a lot to it. Sorry :-)
Happy to post up things I've been working on though, if it interests people.Last edited by christianm77; 03-20-2016 at 03:04 PM.
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Originally Posted by grahambop
Jens
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Originally Posted by JensL
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Originally Posted by christianm77
The funny thing is that I find that there are things I take from it and use and like, I also don't think it would be too hard to make examples of this?
Originally Posted by christianm77
Jens
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I don't know anything about Barry's single-note stuff - would that be 'bebop scales' and the like? I never learned a bebop scale in my life, but I did study bebop solos by the greats and picked up ideas from that.
As to his chord system, I don't think it's necessarily the right place to start for beginners. There's enough to get to grips with just learning the basic diatonic stuff. To me the BH stuff is something to add into the mix later. (about 30 years later in my case!)
Sonny S. -- Les Paul Player
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