The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but I'd like to get some feedback from those of you who have dedicated some time to Mr. Harris's system. I recently bought a book by Alan Kingstone titled "The Barry Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar, and am curious to find out if the substantial effort required to shift my cognitive approach to chord theory will be well invested.

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  3. #2

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    There have been numerous threads and Alan Kingstone is a member here and posts in those threads. I'd say there are quite a few Barry Harris videos on Youtube and to check those out to get an idea of his approach, if it is interesting then investing in his materials will probably be worth for you.

  4. #3

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    What I find most intriguing about the method is learning to intersperse diminished chords seamlessly into any harmonic context. When properly executed, it sounds like seamless chordal motion. I hope to eventually reach that level.

  5. #4

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    O
    Quote Originally Posted by Klatu
    What I find most intriguing about the method is learning to intersperse diminished chords seamlessly into any harmonic context. When properly executed, it sounds like seamless chordal motion. I hope to eventually reach that level.
    yes that is how I think of it a seamless harmonized chordscale of the major or minor 6th drop 2 or drop 3 inversions fleshed out with a diminished chord at the 2nd, 4th, m6th and M7th degree of the scale -- so on can transition from inversion to inversion of the chord via a diminished chord to create a sense of movement and interest.

    so take a C6 chord

    root position and inversions (N=4)
    1563
    3615
    5136
    6351

    link these chords via a diminished chord at the 2nd, 4th, m6 and M7 of the C scale

    D dim
    F dim
    Ab dim
    B dim

    thwn think about possible chords that share the same notes and voicings
    IM6 = vim7
    im6 ='vim7b5

    etc

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    O

    yes that is how I think of it a seamless harmonized chordscale of the major or minor 6th drop 2 or drop 3 inversions fleshed out with a diminished chord at the 2nd, 4th, m6th and M7th degree of the scale -- so on can transition from inversion to inversion of the chord via a diminished chord to create a sense of movement and interest.

    so take a C6 chord

    root position and inversions (N=4)
    1563
    3615
    5136
    6351

    link these chords via a diminished chord at the 2nd, 4th, m6 and M7 of the C scale

    D dim
    F dim
    Ab dim
    B dim

    thwn think about possible chords that share the same notes and voicings
    IM6 = vim7
    im6 ='vim7b5

    etc
    I always have to simplify things or relate them to something else I already know so see if this makes sense.

    What I'm seeing is the Wes Montgomery chord scale thing, take a chord play inversions on chord tones and diminished on non-chord tones. The one thing different is the Ab, but Ab is note added in a Bebop major scale. So is that another way to view it or am I missing something?

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    I always have to simplify things or relate them to something else I already know so see if this makes sense.

    What I'm seeing is the Wes Montgomery chord scale thing, take a chord play inversions on chord tones and diminished on non-chord tones. The one thing different is the Ab, but Ab is note added in a Bebop major scale. So is that another way to view it or am I missing something?
    The m6 is added. Why is it added?

    it makes the distance between a M2, P4, m6, and M7 the same and equidistant--everything is a minor 3rd apart,

    Then think of the significance of a minor 3rd to the diminished chord

    the notes of a D dim, F dim, Ab dim, and B dim are exactly the same. Any note can name the chord.

    i havent checked Alan's book out but I'm sure it offers a detailed explanation as to the further significance of this.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    I always have to simplify things or relate them to something else I already know so see if this makes sense.

    What I'm seeing is the Wes Montgomery chord scale thing, take a chord play inversions on chord tones and diminished on non-chord tones. The one thing different is the Ab, but Ab is note added in a Bebop major scale. So is that another way to view it or am I missing something?
    I'm glad you asked that question because this is exactly the way I've understood it too. Are we missing something. When people talk about m6 are they talking about the Wes thing but using inversions of the m7b5 chords? I'm trying hard to get the difference between Barry Harris' method and the Wes technique of adding dim chords for the non-diatonic tones.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlainJazz
    I'm glad you asked that question because this is exactly the way I've understood it too. Are we missing something. When people talk about m6 are they talking about the Wes thing but using inversions of the m7b5 chords? I'm trying hard to get the difference between Barry Harris' method and the Wes technique of adding dim chords for the non-diatonic tones.
    I wrote out the notes and the Ab is add to create the diminished passing chord other wise it's all C6 and inversion. So the note is added to create the diminished, it's also used in soloing to straighten out the rhythm. Then Bebopper's are also talking about b9's on V and again the Ab considering C6 is tonic.

    I not doubting anything Barry says just trying to make sense of it for myself.

  10. #9

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    It's more than Wes's conception of harmony. I have the book an have been wading through its waters. There is some interesting notes on expanding the diminished chord and thinking of major and minor 6th chords with diminished extensions. But similar to Wes, it is all about creating movement.

  11. #10

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    Wondering if anyone has gotten the DVD's on improvisation that Barry has out. I am planning on going to his workshops over the summer, hoping that he is still in good health. The videos on youtube are quite interesting. Right now, I am really really really digging Willie Thomas's stuff over at jazzeveryone.com. Like, wow!

  12. #11

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    It's worth noting that the added #5/b6 step (G#/Ab in a C major scale) is not only the b9 of the V chord, it's also the leading note of the relative minor. Considering that C6=Am7, the diminished chords that can be derived from the C bebop major scale (D°, F°, Ab°, B° in this instance) can act as dominants to either the I chord (C6) or its relative minor (Am7). This isn't mentioned too often but of course that same set of diminished chords may also act as an interchange to each I chord a minor 3rd from the tonic (C, Eb, Gb, A) and their relative minors (A-7, C-7, Eb-7, F#-7).

    Another way of thinking about this is that Barry Harris considers there to be both a bebop major scale (C, D, E, F, G, G#/Ab, A, B) and a bebop minor (C, D, Eb, F, G, G#/Ab, A, B). The bebop minor again contains an added note between the 5th and 6th steps but here it applies to an ascending form of the melodic minor. The only difference with the derived minor chords to those outlined above is that with the bebop minor the I chord is always a minor VI (C-6, Eb-6, F#-6, A-6) rather than -7. The basic family remains the same. Therefore:

    D°, F°, Ab°, B° may act as a V chord to C6 & A-6/7, Eb6 & C-6/7, Gb6 & Eb-6/7 or A6 & F#-6/7.

    I haven't studied with Barry Harris although I own books by both Alan Kingstone and Roni Ben-Hur on the subject. I'd be curious to know Barry's opinion on the conventional diminished half/whole and whole/half scales. Likewise, does he consider the standard bebop dominant scale (G, A, B, C, D, E, F, F#) and its related minor form (D, E, F, F#, G, A, B, C) to have much significance?
    Last edited by PMB; 04-07-2015 at 11:31 PM.

  13. #12

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    As I'm working my way through Mr. Kingstone's book, I ask myself why Mr. Harris chose to look at m7 chords as 6 chords and m7-5 chords as m6 chords. It seems to me that it would be easier to apply the techniques by keeping the names consistent while integrating the diminished chords and the minor inversions.

    Why is it beneficial to think in terms of 6th chords?

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klatu
    As I'm working my way through Mr. Kingstone's book, I ask myself why Mr. Harris chose to look at m7 chords as 6 chords and m7-5 chords as m6 chords. It seems to me that it would be easier to apply the techniques by keeping the names consistent while integrating the diminished chords and the minor inversions.

    Why is it beneficial to think in terms of 6th chords?
    for me, easier to think of basic subs to remember the I6 when you know that I6= IVM9 = vim7

  15. #14

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    Adding the m6 is to put all the chord tones on the strong beat. As a scale (prior to the harmonization), this is simply to straighten it out. It can be called a bebop scale...but ultimately I think that complicates the simplicity of it and makes it seem like a spooky, un-understandable thing that takes years and decades to grasp. It's pretty simple. In bebop, not all 8th notes are created equal. The down beat is the king and the upbeat is more like the peasant in servitude to it's king, the master. So if we're playing even eighth notes (not even like 'straight' - as opposed to swing - even like constant), the eighth notes that fall with the click of the metronome (if we're playing against quarter notes) we would want to be strong sounding notes...chord tones, resolution points, etc. If we're playing off the click, on the and of the beat...then non-chord tones, chromatic passing tones, approach notes, and tension notes work great. Of course this is an over-generalization. Great players who've internalized this sense of rhythmic melodicism can and do (did) then experiment with this and take it beyond that academic perfection of it. But it's a good goal post to head towards for people who haven't learned to feel this way.

    Adding the Ab/G# lines it up so that the C6 chord tones fall on the strong beat, and the non-chord tones and chromatic passing tones fall on the and of the beat.

    1: C (ROOT - STRONG BEAT)
    +: d (non chord tone - weak beat)
    2: E (3RD - STRONG BEAT)
    +: f (non chord tone - weak beat)
    3: G (5TH - STRONG BEAT)
    +: g# (non chord tone - weak beat)
    4: A (6TH - STRONG BEAT)
    +: b (non chord tone - weak beat)
    1: C (ROOT - STRONG BEAT)

    It all lines up perfectly this way with the 8th notes and with filling the full four beat measure. Mix that in with the fact that all the non chord tones are a minor 3rd apart, and the magic of the Maj6/dim7 inversion kicks in. Because all odd notes are from the C6 chord and all even notes are from the related dim7 chord, when you stack the notes in 3rds to harmonize the scale, you get the symmetry of those 2 chords moving back and forth through their inversions. Brilliant little way of analyzing and creating the tonality.

  16. #15

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    As someone who successfully studied Alan's book with the sole point of re-programming how I saw the fretboard and comp'd changes, I have this piece of advice...

    1. Stop thinking about converting the chords.

    2. Stop thinking of them as an optional tool for a tool bag.

    4. Think of them as how you will completely harmonize an entire song.

    5. Harmonize entire songs using this method.

    6. Stop thinking!!!!!!!!

    This method is now how I see the entire fretboard. When I read CMj7/Am7/Dm7/G7 I still see it as those chords and think of it as those chords but I might play Em7/Eo7/Dm7/Do7 and thus I'm visually seeing it as CMaj7/A7b9/Dm7/G7b9. It all depends on how I want to voice lead it.

    BUT I'M NOT THINKING ABOUT IT. (Isn't this where you want to get to???)

    I have those inversion under my fingers and I can just play the voice leading I hear. Sometimes I have no idea what I played over a two measure because I was just voice leading through the changes and not thinking about this inversion and that substitution.

    This book has had the most impact on my playing than anything else. I am not some wonder kid, I just spent any entire year with the sole focus of getting these inversion down without thinking about them.
    Last edited by TheGrandWazoo; 04-09-2015 at 03:57 PM.

  17. #16
    Ordered my copy today. This approach has been talked about so much recently...

    My curiosity has to be satisfied I guess. :-)

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by jordanklemons
    The down beat is the king and the upbeat is more like the peasant in servitude to it's king, the master.
    The day isn't over yet, but I think "best use of metaphor in theory discussion" may go to you for today. :-)

  19. #18

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    Hahaha...thanks Matt. Though I can't take full credit. The king and peasant thing was my addition...but I stole the "not all 8th notes are created equal" thing from Peter Bernstein. He was got on me about my rhythmic phrasing.

    But if no one else steps up to offer another metaphor today, I suppose I'll humbly accept this most prestigious honor. I'd like to thank my parents, Miles Davis, and God.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    for me, easier to think of basic subs to remember the I6 when you know that I6= IVM9 = vim7
    Thanks for that. How do you conceptualize the Im6 and its subs?

  21. #20

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    Im6 = IV9 = vim7b5

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    Im6 = IV9 = vim7b5
    exactly. The b3 which differentiates the I6 from the i6 becomes a b7 in the IV chord and a b5 in the vi chord.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klatu
    As I'm working my way through Mr. Kingstone's book, I ask myself why Mr. Harris chose to look at m7 chords as 6 chords and m7-5 chords as m6 chords. It seems to me that it would be easier to apply the techniques by keeping the names consistent while integrating the diminished chords and the minor inversions.

    Why is it beneficial to think in terms of 6th chords?
    It's easier to play over a min6 chord, conceptually, than a min7b5.

  24. #23

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    The fact that one diminished chord is the same as 3 other diminished chords really gives one options. Say, in the key of C, think of the G7 as a G7b9. That automatically opens up 4 diminished chords you can interchange and replace in lieu of the G7b9--B dim, D dim, F dim and Ab dim.

    And for the usual ii chord (Dm7)--you can use F6.
    And for the vii chord (Bm7b5) you can Dm6
    And for the iii chord (Em7) you can use G6

    lots of possibilities for chromatic root movement in the bass using this info.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    The fact that one diminished chord is the same as 3 other diminished chords really gives one options. Say, in the key of C, think of the G7 as a G7b9. That automatically opens up 4 diminished chords you can interchange and replace in lieu of the G7b9--B dim, D dim, F dim and Ab dim.

    And for the usual ii chord (Dm7)--you can use F6.
    And for the vii chord (Bm7b5) you can Dm6
    And for the iii chord (Em7) you can use G6

    lots of possibilities for chromatic root movement in the bass using this info.

    That's the kind of stuff the 2nd Barry Finnerty book gets into the pluralities in scales and chords. Simple example the note C is in 6 major scale, then all the modes of those major scale, then can move on to symmetric scale possibilities. But C sounds different depending on which degree of the scale it is. Then when he gets into pluralities in chords things expand like crazy. Music is full of pluralities and learning how to use them to your advantage.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlainJazz
    I'm glad you asked that question because this is exactly the way I've understood it too. Are we missing something. When people talk about m6 are they talking about the Wes thing but using inversions of the m7b5 chords? I'm trying hard to get the difference between Barry Harris' method and the Wes technique of adding dim chords for the non-diatonic tones.
    Geez was I ignorant. This technique is SO much more than that. I've been working on this for about two weeks now using the Kingstone book. The harmonic possibilities are truly blowing my mind. I need to add that I am definitely not a book-learning person. I don't think I've ever bought a book that I got anything useful out of. Until now! The idea of "borrowing" from the diminished is so obvious but I never thought of it and it is just brilliant.