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Listen to Ben Monder play chord solo on a standard sometime.
Originally Posted by wolflen
David
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03-18-2015 06:58 PM
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I have been trying to understand this exact phenomenon/concept/approach, right down to the Bach part of it. How to approach harmony more horizontally rather than vertically. What are the intervals at this moment, how do they sound and what are they doing to the music. How is the melody in each voice moving etc. Originally Posted by wolflen
Since a couple of days ago, I have been trying to play the Bach chorales on guitar. I hope it will show me new ways to think about harmony - both conceptually and physically on the guitar, so I can get away from the standard jazz guitar "grips"(and the general "this chord, this shape, next chord, next shape" mentality) that I am so used to. Not even with the objective of playing jazz, but in general to broaden my musical and technical horizons.
My goal is to get away from my standard grips and be able to think of functional harmony with a much deeper understanding of the possibilities, instead of "Ok next is A7, G7, D7, C7...". Technically it is a workout too. Also for my reading. I figure reading 4 voices will improve my reading 4x faster!
On the technical side - I picked up something new (for me at least) from Van Eps' book Harmonic Mechanisms. He talks about keeping some voices ringing from the previous chord while other voices move. This is one sentence that has kept me going for a month or so now. Here's an example I made for my friend, based on a shorter example in the book. Notes to be kept ringing are in red.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----5------------8------------10------------13-----12--------------------
----2-----4-----5-----4------7------9------10-------------12------------
----5------------7------------10------------14-----12-----10------------
----3-----5-----7-----5------8-----10-----10--------------8-------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------12---
I am not directly contributing to the original premise of this thread but I do hope this post is contributing meaningfully in some way. I also highly recommend the Van Eps book.Last edited by pushkar000; 03-18-2015 at 07:04 PM.
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On the contrary, it has so much to do with this discussion pushkar, and just what the nature of linear and chordal thinking is as an antidote to the traditions you mention moving away from. Thanks! Originally Posted by pushkar000
The Bach chorales! There's the source of the river. Spend enough time sight reading that stuff and you will become a master.
Yeah, sometime when you have some time, go over to the other thread running on the Goodchord voice leading Almanacs and their contribution to a linear contrapuntal "literacy" on the guitar. The surface has been scratched. Time to dig deep!
DavidLast edited by TH; 03-18-2015 at 07:14 PM.
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Thanks. I'm glad you started this discussion and I am excited to see where this goes and what I can take from it, as well as to explore the Goodchord thread. I have seen the first and last pages of the thread. I am excited for the release of the new books! Originally Posted by TruthHertz
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to those that find this topic of great interest I suggest a visit to ted greens lessons site - as he uses the harmonic/melodic approach discussed here..and some of the George van epps method...
here is a link in his baroque section--
http://www.tedgreene.com/images/lessons/baroque/ModernCounterpointStudies_1978-11-24.pdf
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If there are any fellow guitarists reading this thread with confusion, vexation, curiosity and/or frustration, please do chime in and I'd like to welcome these thoughts.
I was reading another thread and in a self referential dullard category, I realized that there is a gap of information, a gap of misunderstanding, a gap of intention and a big gap of perception when it comes to just what anybody is doing in jazz; guitar specifically.
No, I don't necessarily want a debate here about how anything beyond any historical or ability level is B.S., but I personally find the aspect of the expanding universe the essence of what I love about jazz. Being amazed at the possibilities of music and creating in real time, ' it's pretty great. And it shouldn't be beyond the reach of anyone with curiosity.
Just a small welcome sign among some very interesting thoughts...
David
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Good stuff, is there any chance of a few very simple example progressions, a few bars perhaps?
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Fun request. How about it guys? Anybody curious enough to throw out some attempts? I'm thinking that if we look at Stella! Originally Posted by GuyBoden
Good stuff, is there any chance of a few very simple example progressions, a few bars perhaps?
We might find a fun place to insert a non functional substitution in this piece.
Take a look at the first three systems, broadly an exploration of the sides of oblique approaches in the key of Bb. Anybody want to try a set of alternative chords that converges or leads up to the Bb-7 Eb7 at the 12th bar?
Or any smaller part of that?
Or if it'd be easier, any part of the 5th or 6th systems, that almost modal vampish long chord segment.
Or even a reharmonization of just the 3rd system, BbMaj7 into the Bb-7 section, 3 bars of alternative harmony.
Take your time, this could be a fun alternative to "pondering what the shiniest guitar I don't have yet" thoughts...
David
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Great discussion in here!
Non functional harmony is something that I've been exploring for sometime now myself in solo guitar playing.
I play in free/improvised groups pretty regularly. For me, I wanted to find a way to bridge that world and the world of playing tunes as we know them. I guess my approach is somewhat like "re-composing". In some cases I will keep the melody of a tune in tact or I'll borrow phrases that might have a strong hook that will reference the tune I'm playing. For the harmony part of a tune, I'll completely go my own way. In some cases I'll reharm a tune based on its changes or make a whole new set of changes that deals with sound/mood. Consonance and dissonance as a color not a function is what I'm after. When it comes to improv, that's where the free part comes in for me. I want to make real time choices that are based upon mood/color and not upon harmonic function. I don't want to approach a tune with a what I need to or should play on a tune. I want to to trust my ear and let that guide me but still play within the form.
David, you mentioned slash/hybrid chords. Love them! They are perfect for these mood situations. I checked out Ron Miller's modal harmony books and he talks about them in one of the chapters. He's got them laid out in order of least to most tension but he's also coming more from a functional modal place. I also checked out Jack Pezanelli and his modified version of Ron Miller's approach, and I love where he's coming from. Dealing with it purely on consonance/dissonance.
Sorry for the video blast but if you guys don't mind, I wanted to share some music with my approach to this non functional/free playing.
Blue in Green with slash chords:
Autumn in New York - using parts of the melody as a "hook" and using my own harmonies around it.
Rhythm Changes - a reharm. Lot of functional subs in the bass movement but going with my own colors.
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Originally Posted by Double V
really like your work!!..your approach on the Rhythm Changes is just wonderful..I just listened to several cuts of Bill Evans..and you have some of that energy in your playing..taking chances "freefall" but landing on your feet..very nice work
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Much of this is a matter of what and how you hear movement or texture.
I took the second line of Stella.
F-7 | Bb7 | EbMaj7 | Ab7
F-7 E-7/B | BMaj7/Bb AMaj7 | EMaj7/Ab CMaj7/G | Ab7/Gb Ab7
All of these are voicings of the drop 3 family, root descending on the 6th string, except the first original F-7.
E-7 5th in bass
BMa7 7th in bass
AMa7 root
EMa7 3rd in bass
CMa7 5th in bass
Ab7 7th in bass
Ab7 root position resolving to the BbMaj7 in the next line.
It's just one non functional line based on a descending bass line, inversions of the major drop 3 chord and a convergence on the written changes at the point of tonal statement.
Nothing profound but one way that a non functional line can lead the ear on a journey.
David
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Whipped this one up quickly. Mostly using a whole step approach in the bass, with some half step exceptions here and there...and, filling it out with triads(slash chords) Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Thanks so much, man! Appreciate you listening and for the high compliment. Originally Posted by wolflen
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Wow Double V and TruthHertz thats some awesome stuff.
I went through the written stella progression, now I'm going to see what I can nick from the video.
Can any of you guys maybe write down a short example using Herbs interval system?
Maybe just a I-vi-ii-V ?
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Thanks, pushkar! Here's my reharm written out. Originally Posted by pushkar000
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Oh great! Thanks man! There was some really great stuff there, I need to see what's going on in detail.
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Some current events and ideas to try out to resuscitate this interesting thread.
I took a piece of lined paper, marked off and octave as 12 lines and began with a chord voicing, a basic dominant chord. Then I placed the notes of that chord at their place within the octave, took the dissonance value of each individual interval relationship and averaged them. That is the richness index.
Then I altered one note, and remeasured that new chord, gave it its index. And so on. One note alteration to change the sound and dissonance.
This is really a bit of a chore but as i'm going along, there are a few things I'm noticing. Traditional chord naming, which in a diatonic and harmonically consistent system helps one see movement and function, is not so helpful. Sometimes it sounds like the root in in one voice, sometimes in another, and context is important too. So observation and question: How important will it eventually be to me to name that chord? For me, not so much.
This is a very dynamic way of thinking, and some very unexpected progressions come from two adjacent chords, both similar chromatic richness, one which you'd tend to hear as the root in bass, one you'd think of root in alto voice. Well, it doesn't really matter because the reference needed for naming is just not there.
Finally, I'm starting to get really jealous of piano players. Things get really interesting in the land of clusters. That's the forbidden land for guitarists.
Hope to hear more from people playing with this.
David
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Part of the non functional aspect of the interval system is the suspension of the harmonic changes. But let's say for the sake of argument, you do want to see how this can be used over a specific functioning chord. You take your vi chord, and in any voice, you can move that voice, or even add a note somewhere. This can have a profound effect on how you feel that chord. And someway you might even say "Hey you can't use that note, that changes the chord so it's not an aolean based chord…" and that's what it's all about. Originally Posted by pushkar000
Try it, work out chromatic alterations, measure them for richness and create movement that is not based on the parameters of functional harmony.
One thing to keep in mind, this is something that should not be overused. You can choose alternative harmonic paths to a point of resolution but the secret of suspending harmony in a given piece is returning RIGHT on time. If you're always on your own road, it takes you to a place that doesn't resemble the original map. There's a term for that: Being lost.
I'll post more when I've got more worked out.
Any body else out there playing with this?
David
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Truth-
I just responded to a post of yours about the triads over bass notes. Does that relate to this current idea of yours, or is this something different?
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theor...tml#post514812
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An intervallic richness context profile to me, sounds like an additional naming tool, perhaps free of common associations rather than a nameless entity. I'm not sure of the value of the idea of even temporarily shedding names altogether even if the resulting name is somewhat convoluted. I suppose, this is related to my discomfort with the word nonfunctional and my belief that if a chord leads to another in a musical way then on some level it is functional even if our ears and organizational systems don't yet fully comprehend it. I'm guessing that going nameless could perhaps free us from common expectations associated with the chord name but could not the same freedom be accomplished by fostering a more expansive set of possibilities within a naming system?
Dave Leibman in his chromatic improvisation book speaks about different approaches to labeling chords and the musical response that each name points towards. He made extensive use of two tiered polychords over a bass note and sometimes three tiered polychords. His orientation is piano, where 7-10 note structures are a physical possibility.
oh yeah, piano envy.....
X C F# B D X ..... X Db F Bb Eb X ..... X D G A E X ..... X Eb Ab Db F X
X E B D# F# X ..... Db X Bb Eb G X ..... X F# A E# G# X ..... Db G B F A# X ..... C A D G B X
Here's a chord sequence I threw together that starts and ends on C major,
more or less covering a I VI II V type of movement, twice through, in my mind at least.
Anyway David, thanks once more for another excellent thread.
I look forward to learning more about Herb Pomeroy's work
and other similar paths of harmonic navigation.
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Yes, jazzmus, some people personalize their music to a degree that it seems they invented a genre. Jack's approach is very personal, very powerful. I think most people wish they could achieve a very personal language, a rich harmonic control that piano players like Evans, Hersch, Meldhau or Jarrett have at their fingers. Originally Posted by jazzmus
I think of these new directions as guitarists expanding their raw language beyond the norm at this point. It's attitude as much as anything.
Exact Armondo. It's not that these chords are without a purpose or function, but it's enough of a task to interpret harmony in a suspension of traditional harmonic parameters, but to create a new nomenclature, that's not my point here. Like Atonal. Somebody's reactionary label for something that's "Too different to describe". Originally Posted by bako
Texture architecture? Tension based convergence? How about "It's just something I worked out so sit back and enjoy it if you can"?
Yeah when you name a chord, somebody's going to stop and say "That implies [ --- ] and if you didn't mean that, you shouldn't have called it that."
I'm thinking that in a 12 tone system, there can be shifting implications of tonality, that's the fun of some progressions. If we could come up with a shorthand of intervallic identity, and people began to gain fluency in thinking that way, what could music become.
Anyway, hopefully all ambiguity is made clear when we arrive at the target on time. Arrive at the station. Everyone's happy.
David
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For sure. It's all part of this "alternate way of thinking of form" idea. Heh heh, maybe we'll come up with a term like Aformal to coin. But yes, the Goodchord voice leading, Jack's hybrids, Herb's dissonance/richness, are all part of an evolutionary step in my own growth. A logical extension of chord substitution, namely formal harmony substitution. Originally Posted by yotsn
In general they are all part of this related objective. Specifically, I use them differently. I'm working on Jack's stuff in connection with melody in the top voice, Mick's stuff carries its own melody and accountability in all voices, and the Herb stuff… gosh, it's just full of possibilities. Who knows?
They're still wild horses. ' can't wait for the day when I'm one with them.
David
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Are you talking about the Diatonic Four part Chords from page 57-61? Originally Posted by TH
Thanks David
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So I woke up very early this morning and spend some time playing through the major scale cycles on page 57 in TAG both horizontally and vertically before thinking back to David's post about tensions.
I went through each inversion and wrote out the order of chord type inversions from most tension (1) to least tension (4).
Any discussion is welcome
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xx0261 ?? I have very long fingers, but there's no way I could play that chord on anything bigger than my 22" scale Kubicki.
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Luckily the intended chord is xx0201. Although it looks a bit like a 6, the context reveals the graphic intention. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
xx0261 ?? I have very long fingers, but there's no way I could play that chord on anything bigger than my 22" scale Kubicki.
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