The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    Good to hear from you there, Herb.

    "Personally I hear what I want to play before I play it. That goes back to old school solfeggio ~ Sing the notes ( in your head or out loud) and then find them.."

    That is one of my main goals, of course, if not the main point of jazz. Meanwhile, I keep striving to be a little bit better tomorrow, etc..

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by franco6719
    You need to work on technique so you can play and execute properly more interesting lines, in order to play something that you like that you heard from Wes Mongtomery (or whomever) that involved some tricky fingerings and movements and so on. You don't need to work on technique so you can be fastest gunslinger or the most complicated whole-tone line player or something silly like that.
    Yeah, I basically agree. We work on technique to produce high quality music and, hopefully, not to try to intimidate lesser mortals, lol! I want to make good music, regardless of the tempo. Hearing Joe Pass play a ballad is much more mind blowing than just about any shredding I have heard. That being said, it would be great fun to be able to jump into a Gypsy jazz ensemble and be able to keep up. Without developing the technique to play at those tempos, it is impossible.

    When I was young, it was an ego boost to play fast. Now that I have grown up, all I care about is caressing the music. There are enough monster players in the world to render me eternally humble. I'm a "good" player, but I'm never gonna BS anybody into thinking I am that fastest gun or some genius. And why should I? Why should anybody?

    Music is like having a great conversation, and a great conversation requires sharing. In that context, speed can have its purposes--whether they are for energy, humor or just a little fun and fireworks. Yet how good does my one note in "One Note Samba" sound? That is equally important to me.

    Finally, it is amazing how much I can learn when I am not trying to show somebody how much I know. Like I said--serve the music. And do it with skill, spirit, finesse, humanity and soul. Fast, slow--whatever. That is my bottom line. A little speed used in good taste never hurt anybody too terribly bad, lol!

  4. #78

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    My original intention with this thread was a pure technique-discussion, and not a discussion of HOW to use the attained speed-ability. BUT since this is what people like to discuss, here are my two cents:

    - I think the ability to play fast is A MUST HAVE technique for all improvisers. Why limit your tools of expression? If the song/mood/though/moment calls for a fast phrase, it is my opinion that your fingers must be able to execute it.
    - BUT it is also my opinion that you must develop the complementary tools, which you need in order to USE the fast fingers! By this I mean ear training, theory, and phrasing.
    - All those of you who criticize shred-guitar - I don't think it's the speedy solos that make it boring to hear someone play 1000 notes per minute. I think it's the lack of phrasing and lack of variation. As guitar players we are "cursed" with our fingers. Meaning that once you have the technical side of things down, you can set the neck on fire from now on and 'till Christmas Eve. If you're horn player, you have to stop to breathe; they can't play fast all the time. Thats why I think that horn players have much better phrasing (in general) than most guitarists. Their music is so bound to their natural breathing. IMO this makes it easier for them in many ways to make interesting musical ideas, because their playing comes from the same place as our human speech. That's also why I think that people don't criticize violinists, pianists and such who play fast. Because their phrasing abilities are much better than most guitar players.
    - So it's ok to play fast - but NOT ALL THE TIME! Alongside vibrato, bending, sliding I think you can put in tempo. All the scales and aprs we usually discuss relates to "what" to play. Phrasing (vibrato, bending, speed, sliding, slurring etc.) relates to "how" to play. That's why I think speed is a must have technique. It can improve your phrasing ideas, and it is a nescessary tool.

    To sum up I think that everyone should get their fingers up to speed. In conjunction with all the theory and aural skills most jazzers have, I think you have a great "combo" for musical expression. Even though speed is only a small fragment of guitar technique!
    Last edited by C.A.JO.; 06-15-2009 at 07:18 AM.

  5. #79

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    the obsession with speed overtakes the objective of playing fast...if you ever listen to doc watson...his speed passages are melodic...and in context of the piece of music he is playing...thus with most musicians in any genre...classical being a prime example...a pianist or violinist playing long, fast passages..but they fit the musical context they are in...

    i loose interest in playing fast for speeds sake...impressive...to a point...worth the effort/time etc...only ones ego can answer that..

    can i play "super fast" ... yeah...but so what...i apply it in small doses and find it more effective...as a classical player would...mclaughlin uses his speed in that manner..often in slow moving pieces he will interject a lightning fast clear passage..then continue with the giving melody of the piece in tempo...

    for me...the three note signature lick of albert king...shuts down all the speed racers

    play well

    wolf

  6. #80

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    C.A.J.O. and Wolflen I think you both summed it up quite well and I agree with you both.

  7. #81

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    It is 10000 times easier playing fast than playing right

  8. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oniel
    It is 10000 times easier playing fast than playing right
    When I talk about playing fast I assume everyone understand this also means playing accurate. I also not talk about playing... lets say 1 note very fast.

  9. #83

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    I think that if you just simply play, and play a lot, your fingers and pick become more and more accurate. Do you really think Joe Pass sat down and did speed exercises with a metronome for three hours a day? No, he learned and played tunes and improvised as a means of mastering the instrument. And with it came speed.

    I find that just practicing slowly and steadily through William Leavitt's guitar method books improves my picking accuracy. By that I mean I become more accurate at higher speeds. Now I'm not against speed picking exercises, but I find them very tedious, and your picking accuracy and speed will improve naturally if you just sit down and improvise to tune or backing track, whether you have it on a CD or if you're just hearing the changes as they go by in your head. You don't have to play fast licks all the time while improvising to improve your speed, but you can test your speed by playing a quick run ever once in a while during the tune.

  10. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by JazzGuitarist
    I think that if you just simply play, and play a lot, your fingers and pick become more and more accurate. Do you really think Joe Pass sat down and did speed exercises with a metronome for three hours a day? No, he learned and played tunes and improvised as a means of mastering the instrument. And with it came speed.

    I find that just practicing slowly and steadily through William Leavitt's guitar method books improves my picking accuracy. By that I mean I become more accurate at higher speeds. Now I'm not against speed picking exercises, but I find them very tedious, and your picking accuracy and speed will improve naturally if you just sit down and improvise to tune or backing track, whether you have it on a CD or if you're just hearing the changes as they go by in your head. You don't have to play fast licks all the time while improvising to improve your speed, but you can test your speed by playing a quick run ever once in a while during the tune.
    This is true too of course. Guthrie Govan put it best: "Speed is a byproduct of accuracy". But it does pay off to really sit down and work on your technique every once in a while. It does come natural but you can speed that process up a litte bit by really paying attention to your picking motion and also your fretting hand motion. If you keep your fingers as close to the fretboard as possible and keep your picking motion as short as possible, you'll be able to play faster. Look at guys like Gambale, Greg Howe or Gutrie Govan. They don't move their fingers faster than you do, they just move them less.

    Picking exercises are usually pretty boring because the're focussed on certain aspects of technique. You can make them more interesting by turning them into music. For example, if you want to practise string crossing, instead of taking the old Paul Gilbert exercise, try and play intervals (3rds, 4ths, 5ths. 6ths, 7ths, through scalar runs, through arpeggiated runs) and consistently move your right hand down and up or try to make phrases of triplets, 16th and also quintuplets and other weird timed runs. Try and play them over changes, this will open up a world of new licks. It's good to have a few basic exercises but the real fun is to try something new every day. Once you've got that idea in your head (and fingers), it's bound to come out somewhere in your improvisation and this makes it more fun.

    The other way around works too. This is what you said, your technique improves with just playing a lot. If you're improvising more than once per song you'll probably go "Hey that's cool! how did I do that?" and then look for the same lick again and use that concept in other keys, expand it with different ideas etc.

    Come to think of it, it might actually be fun to try this on the forum here! Not picking exercises, we all know those but expanding our horizon a bit.
    Let's dare each other to come up with a cool sounding lick over a certain progression or chord twice per week. Do a little explanation (what technique, why the lick works harmonywise), perhaps a werbcam vid or so. In the beginning everyone will be playing what they normally play, later on the cool odd time/wide interval stuff will show up. This might give us all new improvising ideas!

  11. #85

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    Thanks for the idea, my teacher was telling me to work on scales the same way: to turn it into something fun and musical, and naturally it cleans up and speeds up your picking. So you were saying to take a scale and just play it up and down in various intervals. But when you said "consistently move your right hand down and up or try to make phrases of triplets, 16th and also quintuplets and other weird timed runs" did you mean stay on each string for 3 triplets and 4 16ths or did you mean set a tempo and play the scales in triplets and sixteenths?

    Btw nice idea with the webcam thing. Sounds pretty cool.

  12. #86

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    "But when you said "consistently move your right hand down and up or try to make phrases of triplets, 16th and also quintuplets and other weird timed runs" did you mean stay on each string for 3 triplets and 4 16ths or did you mean set a tempo and play the scales in triplets and sixteenths?"

    Both! Depends on what your working on. I was talking about the second method you mentioned. If you're working on string crossing I'd take a scale, start on the low E (or wherever you want) and then take 3 notes at a time. So in C you can make triplets C-D-E, D-E-F, E-F-G etc starting from low E 8th fret, moving it up the scale to the A string. This is a phrase that's very usefull and musical plus if you use alternate picking you'll run into all the string crossing techniques you'll need! Same with 16th notes only then you can group them in fourths.

    You can make it a bit harder by adding string skipping to it. So in the triplet example you might want to try and take the C-D-E on the low E, then D-E-B (B on the D-string), E-B-C (B-C on the D string). It makes it a bit harder but it's still usefull. because of the wider intervallic structure it sounds a bit more interesting as well and it works wonders on your picking accuraty and coördination. You can obviously choose to skip 2 strings or 3 or even 4 (although from low E to high E You'll end up playing the same notes).

    I remember Pat Martino had a crazy exercise as well. He was playing a scale over 2 octaves, I think he made groups of 3 notes as well, so triplets again but he played the third note of each group in the higher octave. So in C you play C-D-E, C-D on the low E string, E on the D string and so on. Interesting idea! It sounds very confusing!

    Another Idea is to use arpeggios for alternate picking. Let's take an A minor 7 arpeggio on the 12th fret of the A string. I always skip the first 3 notes A-C-E (I leave the A and D strings out and start on the 7th note, the G on the 12th fret of the G string). It's a bit of a stretch exercise as well and shows you can use arpeggios different from the regular shapes. What you do is play the G on the 12th fret, then on the 17th fret you play the C, then the A on the 14th fret of the G sting, then the E on the 12th fret of the high E, back down to the G string to the C on the 17th fret, play the G on the 15th fret of the high E, back to the 12th fret on high E and ending on the 17th of the high E. You can make a lot of "scalarlike" phrases by playing arpeggios 3 notes per string. You can take that pattern and make groups of 3 notes and play them in triplets, you can make 4 note phrases etc.

    This is the best way to practise IMO, making musical ideas and then milking an idea, making it harder by adding wider intervals to it etc. It's great for your picking technique and it really helps you to think outside the box.

    Glad you liked the idea! I'll put 2 on this weekend!

  13. #87

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    Oh as for the first suggestion you made (playing 3 triplets per string). I do stuff like that too. one string phrases are good for the coördination of your left hand as you slide them up and down the fretboard.

  14. #88

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    Thanks a lot for these exercise ideas. I'll definitely try to using these daily, and maybe they will inspire new ideas!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennoow
    Oh as for the first suggestion you made (playing 3 triplets per string). I do stuff like that too. one string phrases are good for the coördination of your left hand as you slide them up and down the fretboard.
    Here I meant to say three triplets per note of the scale, so I don't know if you meant that as well.

  15. #89

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    Dear members, i'm glad to hear some opinions all about playing fast.
    My experience is first to find the balance between mentally and phisically playing your instrument.
    Every note is sacred and has other notes in itself.
    Most of the time when you're playing fast you don't know by yourself. You are in trance.
    If the balance is still there you can do it again tomorrow and the day after.
    Everybody knows what a magician is doing at this very moment.
    Yes, he'or she is studying

  16. #90

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    Don't forget to play in your own style, that's the best. If you can play very fast 'in your own style ' u can bring something new to the music.
    To many people are copying others and forget that they are unique. and it's better to first to listen inside yourself.
    You don't have to listen to me either.

    Krenwin
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun
    Talent is being able to move your fingers with speed and accuracy.

    Skill is knowing where to put them.

  17. #91

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    for me starting it clean and playing it to a faster tempo progression level by level makes it an ideal way of practicing..it's a simple way but effective in achieving goal of playing fast and clean..of course, having music in your soul plus hardwork makes you almost perfect..

  18. #92

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    Generally, with the guitar, faster is always better. But if you play professionally, the less notes you play, the more you get paid per note.

  19. #93
    METOPERARETIRED Guest
    Hey there~You with the stars in your eyes..
    I don't care if you play 'fastissimo or slowissimo' out there in Guitar land..
    Music, aka composition comes from the mind.. The mind has the message and one's technique is the messanger.. That's the bottom line, and by the way, if you ever become a Top-Pro you'll find that playing tastefully is what seperates the Guitar players from the "Guitarists" or whatever instrument one plays,whether in Classical or Jazz.. You either play an instrument or Master an instrument. The area in between can be called the Grey area and more than likely that is for the person who doesn't mind waiting for the phone to ring for a gig..

    I am a very successful Percussionist/Tympanist/ and frankly a virtuoso on all.. It is not bragging if you have done it !! I am now 71 years of age and in the past year have been doing very well to teach myself both Jazz and Classical Guitar. Do I ever think I will be a Guitarist? Well if I live to 100 years ther's a chance, but frankly when I play, I think first and play after much thought as to what my mind, not my speed wants to come out of my Guitars.. I hope you understand that I am coming from decades of Pro-Playing and studying Music, all the time knowing that I learn something new everyday and that's why I am so happy that I have the "Burn" to keep on playing.. I am retired from the Classics and back to my roots in Jazz as a Drummer / Vibraphone Master.. My Guitar practice is as exciting as when I was 6 years young and started studying Drums never knowing what the future had in store for me..

    So~Keep on practicing realizing one thing ~ " We learn when we are young but when we age, we understand ! "

    Merde ~~

  20. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    But if you play professionally, the less notes you play, the more you get paid per note.
    Ha! That's an interesting point. I hadn't thought about it that way.

  21. #95
    I didn't read all the replies, so I maybe repeating something here.

    During one era of my playing, I practiced 6 - 8 hours a day, everyday, for a few years. I got pretty speedy in those days as most of that time was spent playing scales, tunes, licks, and exercises with a metronome. I got up to where I could get around pretty comfortably - for a 3 hour stretch - playing 4 notes a click at 152 BPM.

    Now days my life won't allow anywhere near that amount of practice time. My cruising speed these days is 120 BPM.

    In my older days I've found that I've been able to increase my speed more by practicing in slow motion (e.g. 76 BPM) with my hands TOTALLY RELAXED. I sure wish I had done this back when I was in the 8 hours-a-day world. I think I would have developed much better technique.

    My opinion is there are 3 modes you can be in when playing guitar:

    1. PRACTICING: I do most of this now in slow motion with hands totally relaxed. I focus on tone, technique, theory, improvisation, etc. while doing this. Slow motion improvisation has had some great results.

    2. PERFORMING: I'm at a gig. I've turned off my brain and I'm playing more with feeling than academics - just using what has creeped into the "that's so easy I can do it in my sleep" stuff.

    3. TEST PILOT: I see how fast I can play before I crash.

    All three are valid.
    Last edited by SwingSwangSwung; 10-15-2009 at 10:03 AM.