The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Was listen to this and thought y'all might too.


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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    Was listen to this and thought y'all might too.

    Thanks for that! Barry explains stuff really fast but what I picked up was the importance of rhythm and being flexible enough to insert half steps to help a line hit the chord tones.
    Larry

  4. #28

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    Beautiful.

    In a nutshell.


    Descending Rules for Dominant:

    Off 1/3/5/7 - 1 extra HS or 3 extra HS

    1 extra = between tonic and b7
    3 extra = between 3 & 2, 2 & 1, 1 & b7

    Off 2/4/6 - 0 or 2 extra half steps

    0 extra = no extra half steps
    2 extra = between 2 & 1, 1 & b7




    In recent years Barry has said the RULES are more important than where the half steps are.

    Larry nailed with "...the importance of rhythm…"


    (PS. I've never heard Barry refer to a 'bebop scale' so neither do I)

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone

    In recent years Barry has said the RULES are more important than where the half steps are.

    Larry nailed with "...the importance of rhythm…"


    (PS. I've never heard Barry refer to a 'bebop scale' so neither do I)

    Listening to the YouTube and DVD don't know which but it jumped out at me when Barry said you can add a half step anywhere it all about the rhythm. Also I think it was from Barry I picked up when adding the extra half step when you get to the natural half-step of the scale to put in another note in-between. Experimenting with that I hearing sounds I've heard many other use.

    It's all about learning to focus on how you start you're lines. Strong beat or weak beat, chord-tone or non-chord tone and subconsciously knowing which rule to apply.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    How do you use them? For comping, particularly a very slow harmonic rhythm ( I.e., where the chords don't change that often) where are you can go from one inversion to the other via the diminished chords, or add borrowed notes from the dominants ---and demonstrate movement and diverse voicings where before you had the same old same old. Particularly if you know which chordd you can sub for.

    the application is so wide ranging as to transform your whole conception of diatonic harmony - and the pay off is that you get the uber- bebop sound - bud powell etc. etc.

    a g7 is really a dm6 (honest) - and the dm6 is not a static chord but a whole harmonized scale made up of four inversions of dm6 (1,3,5,6 in bass) separated by a diminished chord (the one a whole tone above the root of dm6)

    as soon as you hear this harmonized scale it should be clear to you how important it is in the music (barry has not invented it - its in the music)

    so that gives you a way of producing endless forward motion over a dominant chord.

    the next thing is to realize that:

    g7 alt is really a flat min 6 (honest) - and a flat min 6 is not a static chord but a whole harmonized scale of chords. this allows for endless forward motion over alt dom sounds

    next thing of course is to realize that g min 7 is really b flat maj 6 with the 6 in the bass - and b flat maj 6 is not a static chord but a harmonized scale (four inversions of b flat maj 6 - 1,3,5,6 in bass - with a single diminished chord separating each one - the dim chord starting on the second note of b flat maj - so, c)

    that is enough info to totally change your whole way of seeing and playing the harmony for a standard tune. it is not a minor modification it is a total gestalt switch. the benefit is basically that you can always find ways to maintain forward motion - and that is crucial to the music.

  7. #31

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    so what are the other rules for descending major sounds?

    1. from 1,3,5,6 - 1 added note between 5 and 6

    what are the other rules?

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    so what are the other rules for descending major sounds?

    1. from 1,3,5,6 - 1 added note between 5 and 6

    what are the other rules?

    1/3/5/7

    1 Extra HS - 6-5
    3 Extra HS - 3-2 2-1 6-5

    2/4/6

    0 Extra HS
    2 Extra HS - 2-1 6-5

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
    1/3/5/7

    1 Extra HS - 6-5
    3 Extra HS - 3-2 2-1 6-5

    2/4/6

    0 Extra HS
    2 Extra HS - 2-1 6-5

    fantastic Alan - so its really exactly the same as the dominant rules except the 'fundamental' is between 6 and 5 not 1 and b7.

    i think that the real magic of barry's approach is that it is primarily rhythmical - both in the approach to accompaniment and to soloing (that added half step is at the heart of both aspects)

    (btw - i got your fantastic book years ago - my whole take on the music has been transformed by barry, and your application of his principles to the guitar has been invaluable to me)

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    fantastic Alan - so its really exactly the same as the dominant rules except the 'fundamental' is between 6 and 5 not 1 and b7.

    i think that the real magic of barry's approach is that it is primarily rhythmical - both in the approach to accompaniment and to soloing (that added half step is at the heart of both aspects)

    (btw - i got your fantastic book years ago - my whole take on the music has been transformed by barry, and your application of his principles to the guitar has been invaluable to me)

    'fundamental' !!

    You think like a teacher. I like that codification.

    "…Barry's approach is that it is primarily rhythmical.."

    Very much so.

    Barry & Howard transformed my playing also. I'm not a great player but I think I sound fairly original due to his teaching (Harmonically at least). Bebop lines are tough, I still stink there.

    Barry talks about 'little things'. Small harmonic movements. Listen to Barry and pianists from the 40's playing a fast blues.

    2 Bars =
    Bop..da boo ba




    Thanks for your kind words. I'm inspired by all the study and dedication on these threads.

  11. #35

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    - i've been a teacher my whole adult life Alan... (until i started to be a full time stay at home dad for my two wee boys - then i learned how hard teaching really is)

    there's another scalar thing barry does isn't there? - and ascending - its a way of playing a chromatic scale that stays in time:

    rule - every time there's a half step in the scale add a note - and fill in the full steps with the mediating half-step

    so for c maj you fill in all the whole steps and between e and f and b and c you add an extra note (e-g-f; b-d-c) - then you get a chromatic scale-type thing that stays in time

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    - i've been a teacher my whole adult life Alan... (until i started to be a full time stay at home dad for my two wee boys - then i learned how hard teaching really is)

    there's another scalar thing barry does isn't there? - and ascending - its a way of playing a chromatic scale that stays in time:

    rule - every time there's a half step in the scale add a note - and fill in the full steps with the mediating half-step

    so for c maj you fill in all the whole steps and between e and f and b and c you add an extra note (e-g-f; b-d-c) - then you get a chromatic scale-type thing that stays in time

    Right. He get's us to start on each scale degree.

    It sounds like you've done workshops with Barry.

    Take care of yourself and the wee ones.

  13. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
    Barry's harmonic and soloing theories are separate. Barry's soloing method is mainly about Dominant 7th scales.

    For instance:

    Am7 / D7

    Barry would say D7 scale into Ab7 scale. The TWO chord is built on the 5th degree of the Dominant scale. There is no need to play it.

    For further study in this direction I again suggest Howard Rees excellent workshop videos with Barry.
    Sorry to keep coming back to this everybody but it's just hanging me up!
    I wasn't referring to single note soloing but playing any chord (minor types in this case) with movement over an extended period.

    I'm usually playing 3 different minor chords: aeolian, dorian and phrygian. Using Barry's system I could play chords all day long over an Am7 aeolian if I wanted to, using the CM6 approach over Am7.

    How would I chord over an Am7 dorian (with a natural 6), extended over say, 4 bars without implying a dominant sound? Per Alan's suggestion, would I construct chord lines using the 5th degree of the Dominant scale using borrowed notes? I guess I could also do the same thing with a GM6 dim scale and construct chords that imply an Am7 dorian.

    In the regular major scale, I'm used to using surrounding chord forms, chromaticism, and subs to get harmonic movement around aeolian, phrygian and dorian minor 7th chords and I want to see how Barry's system would open up more possibilities for movement on any extended play chord.

    BTW, I live in Albuquerque and I haven't met any musicians here who are into this.
    If I'm missing something fundamental to this question please let me know.
    Thanks,
    Larry

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
    Right. He get's us to start on each scale degree.

    It sounds like you've done workshops with Barry.

    Take care of yourself and the wee ones.

    i only wish i had done workshops with him - i have a set of four dvds - and your book. i'm going to practice that chromatic scale now - i hadn't thought of starting on each scale degree...

    i adore barry's playing and have lots of his records. his solo on e.g. 'those were the days' is even better - i think - than the towering dexter solo that precedes it. perfect comping too of course.




    extraordinary rhythmical intensity - second only perhaps to the incomparable bud powell

  15. #39

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    Re: OP

    Pretty handy for songs where you have a stretch of dominant chords without anything else. Tunes that fit into that category would include Limehouse Blues, Sweet Georgia Brown, Caravan, the bridge of Rhythm Changes etc.

    TBH - I haven't spent nearly as much time on this as I have on the major and minor 6th diminished, and you can use the minor 6th scales over dominants too.

  16. #40

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    By the way, I just noticed the song of the month here -Cole Porter's "What is This Thing Called Love?"--Barry Harris' F minor 6th diminished scale works quite well for the A and C sections.

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    By the way, I just noticed the song of the month here -Cole Porter's "What is This Thing Called Love?"--Barry Harris' F minor 6th diminished scale works quite well for the A and C sections.

    Interesting point. If I remember correctly the song then goes:

    Dm7b5 / G7 / C

    The Fm6 referred to is the same chord as the Dm7b5 sharing a Related Diminished.

    What? Is This Thing Called Love?

    What Is This Thing Called, Love?

  18. #42

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    The dominant/diminished scale of chords works just fine on any dominant chord if you want a very straight, unaltered dominant sound.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
    1/3/5/7

    1 Extra HS - 6-5
    3 Extra HS - 3-2 2-1 6-5

    2/4/6

    0 Extra HS
    2 Extra HS - 2-1 6-5
    For me, the major rules starting from 6 and 7 do not work as smoothly out of the box as for dominant scales.

    When starting from 6 using two HS, then the HS 2-1 (b9) will land on the downbeat; when starting from 7 using one or three HT, then the HS 6-5 (b13) will land on the downbeat.
    Isaac Raz in his video on major half step rules addresses this and suggests "waiting" for the insertion of the halfsteps until the bottom part of the scale is reached, but I find that a little bit clumsy.
    Chris Park in TILF does not address this at all.
    Bill Graham in his video on major half step rules suggests alternative rules for 6 and 7 where the HS can be inserted "immediately", which work greatly and need no "fixes" like waiting or something similar:

    1/3/5, 2/4: like above

    6:
    1 HS 6-5
    3 HS 6-5, 3-2, 2-1

    7:
    2 HS 7-6 6-5
    2 HS 3-2 2-1
    (1 HS 6-5)
    (2 HS 6-5 2-1)

    I have put the last two in round brackets because they also result in a HS on a downbeat.

    Does anybody have similar thoughts about that or dealt with similar questions?

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
    Barry's harmonic and soloing theories are separate. Barry's soloing method is mainly about Dominant 7th scales.

    For instance:

    Am7 / D7

    Barry would say D7 scale into Ab7 scale. The TWO chord is built on the 5th degree of the Dominant scale. There is no need to play it.

    For further study in this direction I again suggest Howard Rees excellent workshop videos with Barry.
    What I like most in this example is F7 (another brother of D7 scale) scale with added F# as a passing note over the D7 (instead of Ab7 scale), which is the same as G harmonic minor with b7=F as added note. I would be interested on your opinions!
    Works also great over F# dim chord by the way in the case the bass would resolve to G.

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    a g7 is really a dm6 (honest)
    g7 alt is really a flat min 6 (honest)
    What I also like very much is playing cm6 diminished scale over G7, but starting with the diminished chord! So B dim on beat and cm6 chord offbeat for example.

  22. #46

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    Dominant 7th diminished scale (C7 and B diminished):

    C D E F G Ab Bb B

    Dominant 7th b5 diminished scale (C7b5 and B diminished):

    C D E F Gb Ab Bb B