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Something of this ilk occurs in Happy Birthday. In C, over the F major chord, the melody note is a B, giving a very b5 sound. I've never seen it notated as Fb5 though :-)
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07-25-2018 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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usually in a group of people singing happy birthday I'll try to match them with bitonal centers
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Yeah I dunno... But, there is no doubt that pre-60s comping musicians often favoured 6th chords or pure triads over 7ths - depends from player to player.
IMO there's a massive difference between an extended dominant chord and an extended major or minor chord.... Apples and Oranges. The 7th in a dom7 chord for instance has a very different function to the 7th in a maj7 or even a min 7. Which relates to one of your other points below...
But comping is very distinct from lines and the generalised idea of harmony - there's different styles of comping. Some people want to learn only prewar jazz. Others want to learn modern jazz... 1 3 7 grips seem a good shout, and it's the first thing I was taught. (By Dave Cliff who I also remember telling me 6th chords were a bit corny. But that's an aesthetic thing, right?)
If I teach someone learning gypsy jazz plays rhythm with all 7th chords they are going to get dirty looks on the stand, OTOH. But, if you play a seventh chord or imply one in a line, no problem! (Except maybe min7 on I, that sound can work, but m6, m or even m(maj7) is a safer bet. On IVm, fine.)
Context... Boppers, 7ths for grips but maybe the BH stuff later. ATM.
I don't really know how to go back and start over mentally , "unlearn" what I did before. not sure where my prejudices are more defined by what I DID than what's best. By the time I got to thinking about things in terms of triads I already knew the seventh chord arpeggios , and I mostly use them as a fingering basis for things, even when pairing back, at least for jazz. (I do a lot with triads outside jazz and strangle think slightly differently about them - kinesthetically and musically.)
But more information = better anyway. If you already know stuff, learn more stuff. Obviously.
If a student knows 7th chords I teach triads, if they know triads, I teach 7ths and triad superpositions and everything up from there. If they know nothing, I teach triads first.
There's kind of a chicken egg thing for me with leaving out the seventh in targeting things through the cycle. You end up playing the seventh by default, when you target the third of the next chord . I mean are you merely "already on" the next chord , or are you adding sevenths to the previous? Doesn't matter in the end I guess , but I don't really know how to think about it as "from the beginning".
I'd be curious to know how you teach your students to target thirds when cycling like that. To me, seventh chord fingerings a fifth above provide the fingering mostly , but I'm not TEACHING jazz. Not sure if that's more of a "just the way I learned it" thing more.
Yeah, in practice if you enclose a third in that way (using the 4-3 resolution so to speak) you are turning the previous chord into a secondary dominant seventh, which is significant, because this sub also govern the construction of jazz walking basslines - (7-1) so I see this as a fundamental thing to grasp. The two things are flipsides of the same thing of course, and this can easily be understood on one guitar...
Classical stuff, anyway.
But the guide tones on all diatonic 7th chords? Not so much. It's a subset of voice leading, and cool, but not as essential as the V7-I resolution or some of the other stuff.
But I've also spent a couple of years thinking about the fact that that kind of targeting can also be thought of harmonically, and therefore e"xtended back" from the basic target notes I might have started with.
(I've actually spent the last week or so working on chromatic passing tone approaches based on those old Jimmy Amadie patterns I learned a long time ago. You can basically use them in a major context or altered etc. If you apply those halfstep principles. sort of has a foot in both sides of things: embellishment , but based in a harmonic context. Anyway, at the same time, accidentally stumbled upon something on Barry Harris's chromatic scale principles, and they're basically the same thing. These are really nice approaches which work very solidly in harmonic and rhythmic ways. Another thread probably.)
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So really I advocate 'classical harmony' into jazz I guess... Obviously not all jazz harmony is classical, but AFAIK all 'local' common practice classical harmony is found in jazz. And that's even before we get into the influence of Ravel and Debussy.
It might be worth pointing out Barry's statement 'the harmony is classical.' When he says that it's not just pie in the sky. Those Detroit musicians, Paul Chambers, Tommy Flanagan etc all had actually a strong background playing classical music at school. They might not have known the harmonic theory but they knew how that music sounded, which is actually more important...
And I might not use the same language as a classical academic, because the point is hands on info, but I start with those sounds. With a bit of blues, it goes a long way...
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
Anyway, #11's is for pansies
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Originally Posted by ragman1
FMaj7#11: 13220x
FMaj7#11: 13x200
I like minor second intervals, too:
FMaj7#11: xx2415
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by christianm77
So, my takes on these things may be overly simplistic.
I started with 7th chords and I would teach it that way still. When you look at a chart of any jazz tune, you're likely to be looking at 7th chords with alterations.
For soloing, I may be missing both the big picture and the details. But, for me, thinking about arps or triads, or, heaven forbid, scales or modes, means I'm likely to be in trouble. The idea is to think of a nice melody that fits the harmony. If I'm thinking about a previously practiced triad, arp, scale or mode, then I'm forcing the melody to be something else. I'm aware that others think differently.
But, if I can't hear the tune well in my mind, I may use various devices to try to play something decent. For that, I see and hear value in all the approaches.
I confess that I have occasionally read somebody's explanation of how they think about soloing and have been thoroughly confused -- and then, when I hear a clip, I feel like I can understand it using the limited tools I have.
Rahsaan Roland Kirk
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