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  1. #1
    Hello everyone!

    Anyone worked with Mick Goodrick and Mitch Hauper's "Factorial Rhythm"? I've heard that is based on the 24 possible permutations of a given 4/4 rhythm, but it's that all about it? How is the approach to that huge amount of possible rhythms? What about the "tempo calendar" (something I've also heard but I have no idea)?

    Thanks a lot!

    Pedro

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  3. #2

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    Hi Pedro

    The book begins with a discussion of rhythm between Goodrick and Haupers. The rest of the book is then given over to permutations of one, two and three bar rhythms, save for one page setting out a 28 day calendar. Each day contains four tempos. The arrangement of tempos is fairly arbitrary. The suggestion is that you practice whatever material you are working on at four different tempos a day, seven days a week, for 28 consecutive days.

  4. #3
    David! Thanks for the reply!

    The one, two and three bar rhythms are divided in four equal parts for permutation, right?

    Have you used this book? Has it changed in any way your rhythm perception or fell when you improvise?

    I've been working whit this idea of rhythmic permutation on one bar. Improvising using two or three possible permutations over the single string thing from the advancing guitarist. Pretty interesting, but I need to put some bar or beat rests to create phrases; if I don't use rests it sounds too mechanical for me. I don't know what the book says about it.

    Integrating articulations (Legato, pizzicato, accents) the possibilities are infinite.

    I get the feeling that if I work with it long enough I may get to permutate rhythms on the fly, without need of writing them out... Would that be one of the goals of the book?

    Which concepts do you find interesting about the discussion of rhythm between Goodrick and Haupers?

    Sorry for my terrible english...!!!

  5. #4

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    could that be a "binomial expansion" rhythm?

  6. #5

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    I have the book, and like Mick's other books, he shows you a ridiculous amount of material, and then encourages you to do something with it. I'll take a few rhythms, and then practice melodies/lines at different tempos; great right hand workout and TIME workout, which is what I need.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by ll00l0l
    could that be a "binomial expansion" rhythm?
    What is "binomial expansion rhythm"?? sounds interesting...

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by marcwhy
    I have the book, and like Mick's other books, he shows you a ridiculous amount of material, and then encourages you to do something with it. I'll take a few rhythms, and then practice melodies/lines at different tempos; great right hand workout and TIME workout, which is what I need.
    True!! Mick's books have that imprint... you don't have to work all that stuff!!

    Ok. I'll keep on working with rhytmic permutations. I guess that's what the book is about.

    If you've found any other interesting way to practice or apply this material please share!

    Thanks a lot!!
    Pedro

  9. #8

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    Hi, I've been looking for Mick's older books for a while now and can't seem to find them... anyone know where i could get a copy of the Voice Leading Almanacs or Factorial Rhythm?

  10. #9

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    Hi, and welcome to the site.

    Do a search on the Voice Leading books here, and you'll find a member, "Truthhertz," (David); he's the Knower of All Things Goodrick.

  11. #10

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    The factorial rhythms book is one of those things you may not want to confront until you find yourself against that "I am SO tired of the same lame rhythmic phrasings" wall. They are things you'll maybe hear in some very hip big band arrangements (Greg Hopkins-esque) and once you start exploring, you'll find tons of ways to "re-space" your melodic material so it sounds completely new. If you don't need it, it may seem elusive. If you are looking for new fresh avenues of phrasing and rhythmic structure, this is a goldmine.
    The challenge is, once you work on these rhythms, you need to figure out what to do to make melody work with them. In other words, if you get your phrasing from transcription alone, or by following the patterns of other players, it will be a challenge to make your own. That aside, once you "stake your territory" in a rhythmic way of thinking, it may change your life.
    A little of this material, juxtaposed with a more traditional phrasing will create that "DAMN! What WAS that?" reaction. And an interesting aside, it also allows you to create very interesting and compelling lines of displaced rhythms over fast tempos without having to play millions of fast notes.
    Mick's got a new one coming out as a self published Repeat After Me. I'll have that in print soon. Similar idea but with phrasing over several bars.
    I've started writing etudes using the concepts and it's bending my head. There's a little of this on the Goodchord thread located elsewhere in this forum.

    David

  12. #11

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    So, is this book Out of Print? Not available on Amazon? Do you have to order it through Berklee?

  13. #12

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    Maybe Amazon as a self publish, as soon as within a month if it gets the clear from former Goodchord powers.
    David

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    Maybe Amazon as a self publish, as soon as within a month if it gets the clear from former Goodchord powers.
    David
    Sorry, just to be clear, I was speaking of the Factorial R book, not the new one you say is in the pipeline. Thanks!

  15. #14

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    It's the case with both. Factorial Rhythms is part of the Goodchord catalogue, out of print and unavailable. It's being prepared for reprint but whether it does is up to parties to agree on. It was both books to which I referred.
    David

  16. #15
    Wow! Great news!! And the almanacs are also in the reprint?

  17. #16

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    Would someone care to share/discuss some of the contents of the book? I'm curious to see what kind of rhythm's/exercises/etc. are in the book and maybe we could talk about them like on the Almanac thread.

  18. #17
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_VZAHssQuAT...0/untitled.bmp

    Check out this image i've found on google. I think is an example of the factorial rhythm possibilities.

    take the numbers 1, 2 ,3 and 4

    1 equals to dotted quarter and one eight note
    2 equals to eight note and dotted quarter
    3 equals to tied quarter note and two eight notes
    4 equals to tied eight note, another eight note and a quarter.

    So, the first system of the image would be 1 2 3 4, right?
    The second system would be 1 3 4 2
    The thrid 1 4 2 3

    And so on....

    (Sorry for my sloppy english!)

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gesture
    Would someone care to share/discuss some of the contents of the book? I'm curious to see what kind of rhythm's/exercises/etc. are in the book and maybe we could talk about them like on the Almanac thread.
    Hi Gesture. The book most closely resembles a huge catalogue of rhythmic patterns set in small groupings. They are referenced by a number assigned to each grouping, that number making reference to a smaller "nuclear" rhythm listed across the top of the page. This allows you to explore and think of rhythmic patterns as being made up of a number of attacks within a meter.

    Hmmm, it's a little hard to explain except to say everyone works with this material differently and it's not something you get "licks" or patterns from per se, but something that can make you think of rhythms in a mathematical way. Now before you say "Oh, I don't like math, especially in music... that's something that comes from the soul..." let me say this is a way of seeing possibilities, and not a set of quotations.

    How is this used? I just spent a semester tutoring some students in a high level ear training program at a local school here. Sight reading rhythms can be challenging, having a vocabulary of different rhythms to improvise with can be a bigger challenge when learning to deal with harmony and melody on top of that.
    We worked with the factorial rhythms so we could visualize all the rhythms in a unit as a related family of attack permutations. It was easy to break them down, recognize and practice them with this conception. By the end of each unit, the students were easily glancing at and sight singing the most complex patterns in real time. Heh heh, whether they were able to deal with the exam pressures remains to be seen this week...

    In real applications, this material can be most useful for people who want a way of connecting and developing motific material in their solos. Personally, I've found that getting locked into a particular rhythmic way of phrasing can trap melodic ideas from being realized. Some people find it an issue that their solos fall into "the same kind of thing" too easily. Well, taking a melodic idea and applying a different rhythmic pattern to it changes everything. It can really free up one's conception of where the melody is coming from, where it can go. Seeing rhythmic permutation allows one easy access to effortlessly creating variations that can then be woven into melodic lines.
    Rhythms are like the speech inflections and accents we speak. When you learn to appreciate the balance of note and space, you create music with an awareness of negative space. The factorials can provide the awareness that leads to that. Mick told me "Music is the journey from one silence to the next." and these patterns really helped me to see space and silence on the micro and macro level.

    But that's just me. Some people look at these books and they just go on the shelf of books. I note that it's best embraced when you have the ear to want to expand your rhythmic vocabulary.
    The new book Repeat After Me has a similar approach but in this, he works with longer phrases that, when repeated, create things that sound completely different. He tried to steer away from the mathematical layout this time around.
    I'll have that one published not to long. Thanks to all who have given me publishing options.

    David

  20. #19
    I recently received copies of all of Mick's books (thanks David!) and have started working with Factorial Rhythms and the 1st Volume of Voice Leading. I have a few questions and was wondering if anyone had the answers.

    On page 2 (Short Form 3 attacks), all of the rhythms along the left side of the page are labeled (ie. 12, 13, 14, etc.), but the rhythms along the right side are not labeled. I'm wondering exactly how each of the rhythms on the right side are related to the seed rhythms. For example, there are several rhythms that include a dotted quarter note, but this duration is not present in any of the seed rhythms. If anyone can explain how any of the non-labeled rhythms are generated that would be great!

    I've also noticed that the examples created from seed rhythms do not include any rests. If someone were to add rests to these, would we assume that all quarter notes become an eight note + an eighth rest, and the same goes for any ties or dotted notes (the first eight note attack being played, and any others that are included within would be rests). Hopefully this makes some sense.

    I'd also be very curious as to how others are applying this to their playing. I am currently picking a single rhythm and practicing it in isolation to my own pulse, against a metronome, and through improvisation with and without backing. I can already see the benefits of working through these rhythms especially when encountering some that are less familiar.

    Michael

  21. #20

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    My message was deleted when I tried to revise it. Damn software.

    I received my Goodrick books from TruthHertz (David) on Friday. David sent them out promptly as he said he would. I am grateful to David as I have been searching for them for a long time. He did me a favour, and I can't imagine he profited from it in any way as the books weighed 10 pounds.

    Thank you for your kindness towards a stranger, TruthHertz. Great pleasure dealing with you. A true gentleman and a scholar.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Isbach

    I'd also be very curious as to how others are applying this to their playing. I am currently picking a single rhythm and practicing it in isolation to my own pulse, against a metronome, and through improvisation with and without backing. I can already see the benefits of working through these rhythms especially when encountering some that are less familiar.
    Michael
    That's certainly the right track! Now take two examples, string them together, and do the same thing! [Endless fun!]
    For reading practice, I'll take 10 minutes and work on one page, too.

  23. #22

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    Hi everyone.

    I know this is an old thread, but I am new here and I kinda don't fully understand how to operate here haha.

    Anyway I wanted to ask if anyone knows where to buy the Mick Goodrick Factorial Rhythms for All Instrements, I'm looking for the book everywhere and can not find it ... Any help would be great. I would purchase any type of the book or the phisical copy or any kind of virtual version ...

    Thanks in advance,
    Gib

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gib
    Hi everyone.

    I know this is an old thread, but I am new here and I kinda don't fully understand how to operate here haha.

    Anyway I wanted to ask if anyone knows where to buy the Mick Goodrick Factorial Rhythms for All Instrements, I'm looking for the book everywhere and can not find it ... Any help would be great. I would purchase any type of the book or the phisical copy or any kind of virtual version ...

    Thanks in advance,
    Gib
    PM me. I will send it out right away.
    David

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    PM me. I will send it out right away.
    David

    Hey David,


    sent you a message few days ago, but not sure if you received it ... Let me know please

    Gib

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by TH
    PM me. I will send it out right away.
    David
    David, check your PM/Email.