Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Posts 1 to 50 of 51
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    My guitar teacher let me borrow his Pat Martino Creative Force 1 video last week, It was excelent.

    The part that caught my attention the most was his talk about minor conversions. This concept wasn't foreign to me, however Its something I still don't quite have a full grip on.

    For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about. The general Idea is to treat any chord like a minor chord. So no matter what the changes are, you can achieve a consistent 'minor' feel. For example. Gmajor7 can be treated as Bminor7, since Bm7(Dorian) is simply an upper extension of Gmajor7. G (B D F# A) C. Or D7 in the same key can be 'called' Bm7 or Fm7b5 at that. Its the whole, 2 chords to the right substitution rule, basically.

    Anyway, I understand this concept at a fundamental level, but am keen to hear any comments on the topic that people might have. Specifically ideas on linking particular scales, or focusing on particular passing tones that help keep the 'minor' continuity throughout the tune.

    Sorry if that sounds a bit vuage, but anyone who knows about what I'm talking about should understand what I'm asking. If not, Ill try elaborate.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    pat's website has a lot of info on his theories. pretty academic stuff.

    what do you think the big advantage of this approach is? i'm not sure i get "consistent minor feel"-- if you play A, C, E, G, over a Cmajor sound, it's gonna sound like C6, not Am7...at least to my ears.

    he's one hell of a player, though. love "consciousness"

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    The value of this is to me would be to be able to have an abundance of minor ideas and keep that minor sound in your ear. At least that is what I get out of this idea and his vid.

    Joe pass would do almost the opposite. Over a ii V I, he said he often ignores the ii (which is the V of the V chord anyway) and play dominant ideas over both ii and V before resolving to the I. V I is the strongest cadence in music, so that makes sense to do so.

    Both are(were) killer players, and bring alot to the table for hackers like me.

  5. #4
    What he said

    I'm a fan of many approaches to improvising. All you need to do is listen to Pat Martino to see why I want to explore this concept. It doesn't matter what hes playing it always has that Evil yet Bright minor feel to it.

    And yes, Joe on the other hand, has a tendency to make every chord feel like a dominant chord. Often he does substitute for dominant chords but even when that isn't the case he manages to throw in deceptive passing tones at times to make you think its a dominant.

    And thats what I'm looking for really. Just approaches people might use to get either of these effects.

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    very interesting,i knew that substitution subject,but that aproach is new to me,is like i knew it but didnt know how to aproach it to make it sound cool.Eugenio toussaint a mexican jazz piano player has an aproach very much like that,he dont see chords like substitutions he sees it as extentions,and that changes alot the way you think and play IMO.

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    Diatonic subs(iii for I, IV for ii, viii for V, etc) can be seen as extensions, I certainly get that. However, tritone subs, minor 3rd subs, secondary dominants, parallel minors, etc, strike me more as true substitutions rather than extensions.

    However, I might not have explored this fully as subs are a topic I have only been messing with the past couple of years. I certainly am just a beginner when it comes to this subject.

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    exactly the same here.

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    On pat martinos website he has an interesting article under the subheading the nature of guitar called sacred geometry it talks about the relationship between augmented chords and major and minor chords. Diminshed chords and dominant chords and there relationships. VERY INTERESTING CONCEPT

    gaz

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    maybe i'm being dense here...

    so if you're thinking this way, essentially, minor is minor (duh)

    over a major seventh you could play the relative minor or i suppose minor up a whole step (A minor over Gmaj7 and just watch the F natural?)

    and so on...

    but what does this really give you? i listen to pat martino, and i'm not really sure i hear him doing this, and i'm just not sure of the advantage. i'm not trying to be a jerk here, but i'm not buying the line "consistent minor feel"-- if i play an E minor line over a G major sound I hear G major.

    it just seems like an awful lot of thinking...

  11. #10
    Yea i see what your saying, and to some people it might seem a bit 'well duh' when it comes to just subbing a minor chord in as an extension.

    'consistent minor feel' might be more subjective than i imagine. To me, obviously, there are 3 kinds of sounds, major minor and dominant. Some players when you listen to them you can tell, ok thats a major sound, ok thats a minor sound ect ect.. but often, not always, with Pat, I hear minor minor minor minor evil minor bright minor. Even though I know the changes aren't all minor chords.

    Clearly not everyone hears things the same. I just really enjoy his style and approach, and the way I understand it he does a hell of a lot of subtle substitutions within his improvising to achieve more of a minor sound over alot of the changes.

    Thats what I'm getting at. But as I said, maybe its a bit more subjective the way it comes across to me.

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    In response to mr. beaumont I think if you are playing and e minor triad over a g major chord i think it can sound minor because the notes of g major chord will sound like an extension of the e minor, making it e minor 7th. or if you play a minor over g maj you could get an a minor 9 sus sound or feeling.
    I think it is subjective but i also think it could be subsconscious, because i think when some people play arpeggios they will emphasise those chord tones subconsciously which will then stand out in the overall sound or emphasise the root note of the relative scale which would also stand out.

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    My first post here, so let me know if this has been gone over a thousand times...

    This is my take on the minorising concept (I haven't studied Pat's approach- so this may not be the same thing):

    Over C Maj7 you can play pentatonic minors, or minor arpeggios, or even blues scales on E, G and B - I particularly love the B pentatonic minor over C Maj7.

    Over Dm7 - play minors (same as above) on D, E and A

    Over G7 - play minors on B, D and Bb, especially if you play a G7#9 chord underneath (but you don't have to - a plain G7 will do).

    So, in a sequence such as Dm7/G7/CMaj7/A7 - you could play Pentatonic minors on A/Bb/B/C - very cool!

    Miss Otis

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    Miss Otis,

    I don't hear Pat playing pentatonics. I have seen him live a couple times, and hve 4-5 of his discs, and that is a sound I don't hear from him. I certainly could be wrong however.

    I posted some of what you mention a couple months ago, as I was exposed to the concept of using various minor pents over maj, minor and dom chords this summer at National Guitar Workshop.

    Very cool stuff. I have yet to explore it as much as I should. Thanks for reminding me of these possibilities and welcome to the group.

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    OK. Maybe I was a little off-topic. But it's good to be here, and I look forward to reading all the other posts. Cheers.

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    I don't think it was off topic at all. I just don't hear Pat using pents. Hey that rhymes.

    It is another way to utilize minor tonalities over other chord types, and highly useful since most of us have the minor pent shapes burned into our muscle memory. Which is why I find this whole idea so useful.

    So much of the challenge of jazz guitar is the muscle memory. Anytime we can take something we already know and utilize it in different ways, it seems very smart to me.

    Not very many short cuts in jazz, so use everything you can to its fullest is a great idea.

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    I have looked at Pat's approach for some time now and also tried to tie it together with other approaches like Joe Pass' and the Lydian Chromatic approach. (My wife says I should get a life)

    The genius and power of Pats approach is in the way he organized music to specifically adapt to the guitar producing a truly ingenius way to visualize the neck. He uses the symmetry of the augmented and diminished chord to lay out areas of the neck to play over during improvisation to "easily" (with a lot of dedication) navigate the changes. I think this is his gift to guitarist (although the box is hard to open)

    As far as the minor/major sound goes, I am certain that Pat can use his system to produce any sound he wants depending on the how he applies the minor conversions to the bass line (which follows the original changes). However, he definitely does favor "visualizing" major and dominant sounds in terms of minor chords which I believe is a practical outgrowth of the way he organizes the neck. For example - D-7/G7/CM7 - he may convert to Am/Abm(melodic)/Em this gives a D-9/G7#5b9/CM9 sound but as far as visualizing the neck - each position he uses will lie within on fret of each other. Joe Pass, on the other hand visualized the D-7 as a G7sus and simply might play various dominant lines with all kinds of clever extensions before resolving to a CMa sound.

    In my opinion, the difference between the Pat Martino sound and that of Joe Pass is that Pat's sound tends to be characterized by a continuos flow with ambiguous resolution points that naturally come from his minor conversions, while Joe has very strong punctuated resolution points in his phrasing which comes from using more traditional ii/V/I with lots of dominant substitutions. Each has their own incredible voice.

    I think by spending some time trying to understand how Pats organizes the neck it becomes apparent why he coverts things to minor. It seems to be the most effiecient way to map out changes and inversions using his approach. Have a hard look at how he organizes the progression on Giant Steps example on his site - I think it best captures the practical side of his minor conversion concept. -

    This is a great topic...Now back to my real life.
    Last edited by Jazzaluk; 11-12-2007 at 05:25 PM.

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    Great explaination Jazzaluk. To me, Pat's approach sounds more modern and angular, while Joe's more melodic.

    Pat gives us dark and light, Joe gave us more tension and release. At least that's how I hear it.

  19. #18

    User Info Menu

    I have checked out the Martino stuff that you're talking about. The target scales are minor, but they are not necessarily "minor" in sounds, it is his way of organizing the fingerboard, not sounds. For example, Pat does a lot of melodic minor subs over dominant chords, like his solo in "Oleo", but the target tones are not "minor" in sounds, but more of a scalar way of thinking. I guess one could say that one is playing in A dorian minor, but in actually, one is also playing all the notes in a G major scale. It all boils down to what the target notes the player is emphasizing.
    Anyway, just my 2 cents. Great topic and great forum.
    T.

  20. #19

    User Info Menu

    The only thing I can think of is substituting minor arpeggios underneath of the chords. For Example Dm7/ G7/ Cmaj7 you could substitute Am7 and Bm7 for the Dm7 and Cmaj7, respectively. As for the G7 you could substitute a Bbm7 which gives you an altered sound. This way you get Dm11/ G7alt/ Cmaj9#11, all of which have some level of dissonance which may help the whole "minor feel". The Am7/Bbm7/Bm7 resolves fairly well too, due to the chromatic resolution between chords. On a completely different note... have you tried using the 6th mode of the harmonic minor? The Lydian #9 scale. It has a #9 (b3) so it gives a darker sound to a major chord. A little too dissonant for me. Anyway, good luck. Interesting discussion too. A little over my head at times, but I like it. haha.

  21. #20

    User Info Menu

    Pat's approach is built out of his need for speed and vocabulary. One of his first books, Linear Expressions, lays out the "scales" he uses for improvisation. Though pat converts everything to a Dorian sound, the second mode of whatever key he's in, he uses all possible minor tones in his "scales" when improvising. For example when playing on a Dm7-G7 progression he would base his soloing on the Dm7, Dorian, sound. BUT he would include notes from other minor scales, so he would use the follwing intervals in his licks.

    D E F G Ab A Bb B C C#

    So the Ab is a Blues note, the Bb comes from the Natural Minor scale and the C# comes from the melodic minor scale, so he's mixing all of the minor sounds into one big sound.


    This is also cool because those same three notes are tension notes on the G7 chord, Ab is the b9, Bb is the #9 and C# is the #11. This gives Pat the ability to sound "in" or "out" and not use anything but his 10 note minor scale.

    Also in Linear Expressions Pat's scales contain many cliche's from the jazz idiom. Pat's theory of scales and improve is that playing up and down a scale isn't what jazz is, but if you see Dm7 and play D C# C D B, that's what jazz sounds like to him.

    Cool concept, Pat can get really heady sometimes, but when you strip back all the extra theory stuff his approach makes sense. This way you don't need to know a million different approaches to improv, you just know one and know how to apply it to a million different situations.

    MW

  22. #21

    User Info Menu

    Yes, this is interesting. It seems like every musician has their own way of simplifying it all down to something manageable, then relying on their ear and experience to apply that boiled down conceptual framework. I guess that's part of the journey and ultimately defines the concept of a personal "style." Whatever framework you finally come up with that allows you to improvise without thinking so much ends up defining your style and sound.

    Of course, you have to really build up a tremendous knowledge base before you can then start simplifying. I think this is true of every discipline.

    It's the "breakthrough" concept we all experience. When one day you say, "Ohhhhh, I SEE, this is nothing more than...[insert personal epiphany of choice]"

    You've just found a piece of your personal analytical puzzle.

  23. #22

    User Info Menu

    Pat Martino's Nature of Guitar Section on his website for a little while and I definitely appreciate some of the insights you all drop here.

  24. #23

    User Info Menu

    Here are my thoughts...

    use 3rds to establish harmony melodically. start and end youre phrases on chord tones, major traids are very good at overiding the underlying harmony, just make sure you know where you are going to land.

    If you know what key you are in, and you know that key well enough, playing minor sounding licks should be relativley easy. as an idea, find the root of the aeolean scale for each implied key, rock the first 6 notes only, beginning and ending on the root of the aeolean. that might work.

  25. #24

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by m78w View Post
    Pat's approach is built out of his need for speed and vocabulary. One of his first books, Linear Expressions, lays out the "scales" he uses for improvisation. Though pat converts everything to a Dorian sound, the second mode of whatever key he's in, he uses all possible minor tones in his "scales" when improvising. For example when playing on a Dm7-G7 progression he would base his soloing on the Dm7, Dorian, sound. BUT he would include notes from other minor scales, so he would use the follwing intervals in his licks.

    D E F G Ab A Bb B C C#

    So the Ab is a Blues note, the Bb comes from the Natural Minor scale and the C# comes from the melodic minor scale, so he's mixing all of the minor sounds into one big sound.


    This is also cool because those same three notes are tension notes on the G7 chord, Ab is the b9, Bb is the #9 and C# is the #11. This gives Pat the ability to sound "in" or "out" and not use anything but his 10 note minor scale.

    Also in Linear Expressions Pat's scales contain many cliche's from the jazz idiom. Pat's theory of scales and improve is that playing up and down a scale isn't what jazz is, but if you see Dm7 and play D C# C D B, that's what jazz sounds like to him.

    Cool concept, Pat can get really heady sometimes, but when you strip back all the extra theory stuff his approach makes sense. This way you don't need to know a million different approaches to improv, you just know one and know how to apply it to a million different situations.

    MW

    That's EXACTLY it. Minor conversion really just means take these five minor-style "activities", as he calls them, that cover the entire neck, connect them up with passing tones and play them, thinking in terms of the II minor chord on just about anything. It's not nearly as complicated as it sounds.

  26. #25

    User Info Menu

    listen to lennie tristano (piano) ... a very unique style..using classical / jazz ... he sets up a bridge to the birth of cool...bill evens...who played jazz on another level...taking art tatum..monk & peterson and put them in a blender...

    some of what i learned from ted greene was you can ingest all the great players..but what you digest then becomes you...your style...

    you can copy licks note for note and get every bit of the tone a great player uses...but its you doing it...

    getting comfortable with your own style is what takes time (years) to accept and use the vast library of music of the masters as reference points rather than playing their material as the main ingredient of your playing

    different approaches / methods are just that..there is no secret way to play...the basic rules underlie all styles and methods..study..practice..repeat..

    if you practice with discipline and go beyond your limits (this is a must)..in time you will discover that you have embraced all other methods and that if you choose you can exercise any of them at will with minimal effort...

    play well

    wolf

  27. #26
    e pentatonic over the c Maj 7 sound great!!

  28. #27

    User Info Menu

    What does this have to do with minor conversion?

  29. #28

    User Info Menu

    I don't like the method, but that's just me; it doesn't work with how I think.
    I feel the same way about the whole 'melodic minor up a step' kind of approaches.

    Like others in this thread have mentioned, if you play, e.g., a D over a C chord, it's going to sound like the 9th, no matter what you want to call it or how you want to think of it. Might as well just think about things in the most direct way, in order to connect it to the ears and eventually try to get away from finger patterns and licks.

  30. #29

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by m78w View Post
    Pat's approach is built out of his need for speed and vocabulary. One of his first books, Linear Expressions, lays out the "scales" he uses for improvisation. Though pat converts everything to a Dorian sound, the second mode of whatever key he's in, he uses all possible minor tones in his "scales" when improvising. For example when playing on a Dm7-G7 progression he would base his soloing on the Dm7, Dorian, sound. BUT he would include notes from other minor scales, so he would use the follwing intervals in his licks.

    D E F G Ab A Bb B C C#

    So the Ab is a Blues note, the Bb comes from the Natural Minor scale and the C# comes from the melodic minor scale, so he's mixing all of the minor sounds into one big sound.


    This is also cool because those same three notes are tension notes on the G7 chord, Ab is the b9, Bb is the #9 and C# is the #11. This gives Pat the ability to sound "in" or "out" and not use anything but his 10 note minor scale.

    Also in Linear Expressions Pat's scales contain many cliche's from the jazz idiom. Pat's theory of scales and improve is that playing up and down a scale isn't what jazz is, but if you see Dm7 and play D C# C D B, that's what jazz sounds like to him.

    Cool concept, Pat can get really heady sometimes, but when you strip back all the extra theory stuff his approach makes sense. This way you don't need to know a million different approaches to improv, you just know one and know how to apply it to a million different situations.

    MW
    Good explanation. I have the Linear Expressions book and need to get back into it. I got the first two activities/scales/lines integrated into my playing, but need to get on to the rest...and also to tying them together.

  31. #30

    User Info Menu

    Really enjoyed this thread (Though it did start with a few errors that threw a few off!).
    Food for though, try these activities on Autumn Leaves (GM)

    Am7 (Am activity) - D7alt (Cm Activity) - GMaj7 & C69 ( Am activity) - F#m7b5 (Am activity) - B7b9 (Am Activity with emphasis on the b5) - Em6 (Em Activity).

    All Minor ideas but in context not at all!

    Eddie
    Last edited by merseybeat; 12-16-2012 at 09:12 AM.
    Elvis has left the building!

  32. #31

    User Info Menu

    Thank you for resurecting this zombie. Tangent to grammar thread, someone should explain resurection and zombies do not belong in the same sentence.
    ^ ^ ^
    <<< My BlogSpot Page >>>
    v v v

  33. #32

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    it just seems like an awful lot of thinking...
    Well, when Pat wrote about this in his book "Linear Expressions," he saw it as simpler than the chord-scale approach. (He did not disparage that system but he thought it could be difficult to implement.) It's more a matter of playing minor lines (<<<lines based on minor chord voicings on the guitar) even if those lines are sounding against major or dominant chords. It is a simpler approach.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  34. #33

    User Info Menu

    Yes, it's just a way of viewing the fretboard in a simplified way.

    It has nothing to do with the sounds.
    This is what confuses people. Of course Martino doesn't "only play minor chords", if the chord is major it's going to sound major no matter what fretboard patterns you're using.

  35. #34

    User Info Menu

    To me Martino's approach is kind of related to the approach taken by Garrison Fewell in his book in terms of using minor scales and arpeggios to help map out the fretboard in a way that is "easy" to manage. I'm sure that both of them are getting at something deeper than that as well, but the two methods seem to be making something in my head click.(although in fairness, that might just be one of my marbles coming loose.)

  36. #35

    User Info Menu

    Exactly Colin! I'd be interested to know if you come from a Rock background? I have found that my fellow Martino Linear expressions lovers that I have met usually come from the rock school! And this way of thinking seems to suit us! For me it got me away from pentatonic boxes and "Freed my mind" lol!

    This was my train of thought if anyone is remotely interested?
    The kid in this video is playing the first exercise in the book!
    He is playing 48 (albeit some similar) perfectly adequate ii V licks in this exercise!
    Displace any of those licks a minor 3rd up and I instantly have 48 altered licks! On top of that every activity holds a b5 well so there's my blues and harmonic sounds sorted too! Once I got comfortable with this I found I could stop thinking and start listening! That's a lot of information but as you say, its organised in such a way that it makes playing a lot more fun!

    That's my thought process anyway! Very lazy me!!!

    Ed

    Elvis has left the building!

  37. #36

    User Info Menu

    Mersey - Rock and blues for sure. The same thing happened for me - ie openned up the neck, got me thinkout outside the boxes and now that I'm a little more comfortable, I am trying to listen more and looking for other ideas. It's obviously not the only thing you need but it has really helped me.

  38. #37

    User Info Menu

    That;s cool Colin! Things I have done to spice them up!
    • Minor 3rd up for Altered Sound
    • Add a b5 for ii V i progressions
    • Side step (4 normal then 4 down a semitone) for static ii V's and other


    For a major 7 (Say C Maj7, M9, C69 and other) Play a Dm activity, slip into an Am activity and then back!

    And the best of all! For Rhythm Changes in Bb play a Cm Activity for the entire A section (Think just Cm / / / F7 / / /) And whatever for the turnaround!

    Its endless mate!

    Ed
    Last edited by merseybeat; 12-17-2012 at 11:58 AM.
    Elvis has left the building!

  39. #38

    User Info Menu

    Wha's "activity"?
    ^ ^ ^
    <<< My BlogSpot Page >>>
    v v v

  40. #39

    User Info Menu

    Played badly their like these!


    Not scales, or arps just lovely little areas of the neck too make love too!

    Ed
    Elvis has left the building!

  41. #40

    User Info Menu

    Minor for Pat is R b3rd 5th, all other tones (2 4 6 7) are used to adjust the contour of the line. Could be a b7 or a maj7, depending on the sound he wanted to create.
    Here's a short line from Linear Expressions that exemplifies my point.

    Gm7
    -------------------------------------------
    ------------------------------------------3
    -------------------------------2-5-2-3---
    -----------------3----2-4-5--------------<< b7 then maj 7
    ---------3-4-5----5----------------------
    -3-5-6------------------------------------

    Because of flipping intervals so quickly Pat says naming scales is not practical, so he just calls scale sounds as "activities". Works for me.
    Last edited by ASATcat; 12-17-2012 at 12:34 PM.

  42. #41

    User Info Menu

    I see. It's similar to what I do, except I can't play very well. Ok.
    ^ ^ ^
    <<< My BlogSpot Page >>>
    v v v

  43. #42

    User Info Menu

    Theres a b5 in that line and its NOT just a passing tone! Its actually a very important note lol!

    Good point Asatcat, but when he gets further into the book there are a lot more embellishments going on! Unfortunately a lot of people dont get past the first chapter and think they have learnt it! The young kid in the video earlier is playing the first exercise! This was about a months work for me (8 hours a day because I was in a cast due to a very heavy Harley D). Its well worth the effort to learn and internalise that excersise as it sets up Pats whole technique! The whole book took me around a year! But I can honestly say it was the best course I ever did!

    Ed
    Last edited by merseybeat; 12-17-2012 at 12:38 PM.
    Elvis has left the building!

  44. #43

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by merseybeat View Post
    Theres a b5 in that line and its NOT just a passing tone! Its actually a very important note lol!

    Good point Asatcat, but when he gets further into the book there are a lot more embellishments going on! Unfortunately a lot of people dont get past the first chapter and think they have learnt it! The young kid in the video earlier is playing the first exercise! This was about a months work for me (8 hours a day because I was in a cast due to a very heavy Harley D). Its well worth the effort to learn and internalise that excersise as it sets up Pats whole technique! The whole book took me around a year! But I can honestly say it was the best course I ever did!

    Ed
    For the most part I just want to point out his use of the term activity

  45. #44

    User Info Menu

    And you did very well mate! Im just thrilled there are a few enjoying this holy grail!!!

    Ed
    Elvis has left the building!

  46. #45

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by merseybeat View Post
    And you did very well mate! Im just thrilled there are a few enjoying this holy grail!!!

    Ed
    I have to say that, although I did find it helpful and as I say similar (sort of) to the Fewell approach in terms of mapping out the keyboard, I haven't really taken it beyond that because it doesn't really get you focussing on the changes and I am too lazy to learn all of the activities in Martino's thing to make them an integral part of my playing. Converting everything to "minor" though like they both sort of do did help simplify stuff for me.

    Like Mr B says, I couldn't really hear a minor sound when playing a d dorian over a C major or playing a A minor arp over a C maj, but I didn't really want to either so that works out pretty well too.

  47. #46

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by merseybeat View Post
    Theres a b5 in that line and its NOT just a passing tone! Its actually a very important note lol!

    Good point Asatcat, but when he gets further into the book there are a lot more embellishments going on! Unfortunately a lot of people dont get past the first chapter and think they have learnt it! The young kid in the video earlier is playing the first exercise! This was about a months work for me (8 hours a day because I was in a cast due to a very heavy Harley D). Its well worth the effort to learn and internalise that excersise as it sets up Pats whole technique! The whole book took me around a year! But I can honestly say it was the best course I ever did!

    Ed
    Fortunately, I"ve owned that book since it came out. Read throgh it many times while sharing it with students. =)

  48. #47

    User Info Menu

    ASATcat, you probably have a better understanding of it than I ever will! I probably interpret it in a completely different way lol! I came at it straight after a Melodic Minor study first so I initially heard the activities as an almost Lydian dominant sound! One of my friends just hears Dorianeque! After us trading lines during jamming we sort of came to the conclusion ii is V!
    To me its just a launch pad now! And any Embellishments are within easy reach If needed! Those lines are just so strong it addictive lol!

    Ed
    Elvis has left the building!

  49. #48

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by merseybeat View Post
    ASATcat, you probably have a better understanding of it than I ever will! I probably interpret it in a completely different way lol! I came at it straight after a Melodic Minor study first so I initially heard the activities as an almost Lydian dominant sound! One of my friends just hears Dorianeque! After us trading lines during jamming we sort of came to the conclusion ii is V!
    To me its just a launch pad now! And any Embellishments are within easy reach If needed! Those lines are just so strong it addictive lol!

    Ed
    I think Martino as well as so many others have discovered that when you enlist more tones, the easier the game becomes. The essential or guide tones are the beacon as well as the root, but the root is played by the bass player in a combo so that frees you from that responsibility.
    The essential tones/bass first
    Then the other chord describing tones that can be altered or act chromatically, these are grease tones, tones that shape the sound beyond the essential stuff.

    Martino works at divorcing himself from the bondage of scales in faver of a much more chromatic world. His style is to play super linear lines.
    Matinos sense of chromaticism is no better than Metheny or Sco or Stern or Lage or Rosenwinkle,, chromatics are chromatics, but the way an artist plays with it is their mark, often really defining their tone.
    Here are two examples of what I believe to be classic Martino chromatic usages

    A7 linear chromatics in a row
    ------------------------5
    ----------------5-7-8---
    ---4-5-6-7-8----------- < linear sequential
    -7------------------------
    ---------------------------
    ---------------------------

    A7 one chromatic
    ------------------------
    -8-7-5----------------
    ---------7-5-----4----- < non sequential/broken
    -----------------------7< non chord tone
    ----------------6------ < single chromatic
    -------------------------
    Last edited by ASATcat; 12-17-2012 at 03:58 PM.

  50. #49

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by m78w View Post
    Pat's approach is built out of his need for speed and vocabulary. One of his first books, Linear Expressions, lays out the "scales" he uses for improvisation....

    I think some people get confused about the difference between minor shapes (chord forms) and minor sounds.

    Pat (in "Linear Expressions") is basing everything off minor shapes or forms but this does NOT mean everything he plays sounds minor. It doesn't. The value of his approach is that it allows for consistent fingering across all chord types. (This is especially important for Pat because he plays very fast.) In that sense, it's not important to think whether one is using the Dorian or Melodic minor scale because it's really about playing the lines that are based on minor shapes (or chord forms) and moving those shapes around.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  51. #50

    User Info Menu

    Yeah enharmonics ...

    Although when I do major Arps over minor Regions ( rhythm section is really minor )

    It is a little brighter than the parent minor enharmonic arpeggio.

    Enharmonic Scales should sound the same .

    Question : do you think Martino would sound less dark to us if he used only parent major scales over major and minor but played exactly the same notes ?
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 03-03-2019 at 08:09 PM.