The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    My guitar teacher let me borrow his Pat Martino Creative Force 1 video last week, It was excelent.

    The part that caught my attention the most was his talk about minor conversions. This concept wasn't foreign to me, however Its something I still don't quite have a full grip on.

    For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about. The general Idea is to treat any chord like a minor chord. So no matter what the changes are, you can achieve a consistent 'minor' feel. For example. Gmajor7 can be treated as Bminor7, since Bm7(Dorian) is simply an upper extension of Gmajor7. G (B D F# A) C. Or D7 in the same key can be 'called' Bm7 or Fm7b5 at that. Its the whole, 2 chords to the right substitution rule, basically.

    Anyway, I understand this concept at a fundamental level, but am keen to hear any comments on the topic that people might have. Specifically ideas on linking particular scales, or focusing on particular passing tones that help keep the 'minor' continuity throughout the tune.

    Sorry if that sounds a bit vuage, but anyone who knows about what I'm talking about should understand what I'm asking. If not, Ill try elaborate.

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  3. #2

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    pat's website has a lot of info on his theories. pretty academic stuff.

    what do you think the big advantage of this approach is? i'm not sure i get "consistent minor feel"-- if you play A, C, E, G, over a Cmajor sound, it's gonna sound like C6, not Am7...at least to my ears.

    he's one hell of a player, though. love "consciousness"

  4. #3

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    The value of this is to me would be to be able to have an abundance of minor ideas and keep that minor sound in your ear. At least that is what I get out of this idea and his vid.

    Joe pass would do almost the opposite. Over a ii V I, he said he often ignores the ii (which is the V of the V chord anyway) and play dominant ideas over both ii and V before resolving to the I. V I is the strongest cadence in music, so that makes sense to do so.

    Both are(were) killer players, and bring alot to the table for hackers like me.

  5. #4
    What he said

    I'm a fan of many approaches to improvising. All you need to do is listen to Pat Martino to see why I want to explore this concept. It doesn't matter what hes playing it always has that Evil yet Bright minor feel to it.

    And yes, Joe on the other hand, has a tendency to make every chord feel like a dominant chord. Often he does substitute for dominant chords but even when that isn't the case he manages to throw in deceptive passing tones at times to make you think its a dominant.

    And thats what I'm looking for really. Just approaches people might use to get either of these effects.

  6. #5

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    very interesting,i knew that substitution subject,but that aproach is new to me,is like i knew it but didnt know how to aproach it to make it sound cool.Eugenio toussaint a mexican jazz piano player has an aproach very much like that,he dont see chords like substitutions he sees it as extentions,and that changes alot the way you think and play IMO.

  7. #6

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    Diatonic subs(iii for I, IV for ii, viii for V, etc) can be seen as extensions, I certainly get that. However, tritone subs, minor 3rd subs, secondary dominants, parallel minors, etc, strike me more as true substitutions rather than extensions.

    However, I might not have explored this fully as subs are a topic I have only been messing with the past couple of years. I certainly am just a beginner when it comes to this subject.

  8. #7

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    exactly the same here.

  9. #8

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    On pat martinos website he has an interesting article under the subheading the nature of guitar called sacred geometry it talks about the relationship between augmented chords and major and minor chords. Diminshed chords and dominant chords and there relationships. VERY INTERESTING CONCEPT

    gaz

  10. #9

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    maybe i'm being dense here...

    so if you're thinking this way, essentially, minor is minor (duh)

    over a major seventh you could play the relative minor or i suppose minor up a whole step (A minor over Gmaj7 and just watch the F natural?)

    and so on...

    but what does this really give you? i listen to pat martino, and i'm not really sure i hear him doing this, and i'm just not sure of the advantage. i'm not trying to be a jerk here, but i'm not buying the line "consistent minor feel"-- if i play an E minor line over a G major sound I hear G major.

    it just seems like an awful lot of thinking...

  11. #10
    Yea i see what your saying, and to some people it might seem a bit 'well duh' when it comes to just subbing a minor chord in as an extension.

    'consistent minor feel' might be more subjective than i imagine. To me, obviously, there are 3 kinds of sounds, major minor and dominant. Some players when you listen to them you can tell, ok thats a major sound, ok thats a minor sound ect ect.. but often, not always, with Pat, I hear minor minor minor minor evil minor bright minor. Even though I know the changes aren't all minor chords.

    Clearly not everyone hears things the same. I just really enjoy his style and approach, and the way I understand it he does a hell of a lot of subtle substitutions within his improvising to achieve more of a minor sound over alot of the changes.

    Thats what I'm getting at. But as I said, maybe its a bit more subjective the way it comes across to me.

  12. #11

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    In response to mr. beaumont I think if you are playing and e minor triad over a g major chord i think it can sound minor because the notes of g major chord will sound like an extension of the e minor, making it e minor 7th. or if you play a minor over g maj you could get an a minor 9 sus sound or feeling.
    I think it is subjective but i also think it could be subsconscious, because i think when some people play arpeggios they will emphasise those chord tones subconsciously which will then stand out in the overall sound or emphasise the root note of the relative scale which would also stand out.

  13. #12

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    My first post here, so let me know if this has been gone over a thousand times...

    This is my take on the minorising concept (I haven't studied Pat's approach- so this may not be the same thing):

    Over C Maj7 you can play pentatonic minors, or minor arpeggios, or even blues scales on E, G and B - I particularly love the B pentatonic minor over C Maj7.

    Over Dm7 - play minors (same as above) on D, E and A

    Over G7 - play minors on B, D and Bb, especially if you play a G7#9 chord underneath (but you don't have to - a plain G7 will do).

    So, in a sequence such as Dm7/G7/CMaj7/A7 - you could play Pentatonic minors on A/Bb/B/C - very cool!

    Miss Otis

  14. #13

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    Miss Otis,

    I don't hear Pat playing pentatonics. I have seen him live a couple times, and hve 4-5 of his discs, and that is a sound I don't hear from him. I certainly could be wrong however.

    I posted some of what you mention a couple months ago, as I was exposed to the concept of using various minor pents over maj, minor and dom chords this summer at National Guitar Workshop.

    Very cool stuff. I have yet to explore it as much as I should. Thanks for reminding me of these possibilities and welcome to the group.

  15. #14

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    OK. Maybe I was a little off-topic. But it's good to be here, and I look forward to reading all the other posts. Cheers.

  16. #15

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    I don't think it was off topic at all. I just don't hear Pat using pents. Hey that rhymes.

    It is another way to utilize minor tonalities over other chord types, and highly useful since most of us have the minor pent shapes burned into our muscle memory. Which is why I find this whole idea so useful.

    So much of the challenge of jazz guitar is the muscle memory. Anytime we can take something we already know and utilize it in different ways, it seems very smart to me.

    Not very many short cuts in jazz, so use everything you can to its fullest is a great idea.

  17. #16

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    I have looked at Pat's approach for some time now and also tried to tie it together with other approaches like Joe Pass' and the Lydian Chromatic approach. (My wife says I should get a life)

    The genius and power of Pats approach is in the way he organized music to specifically adapt to the guitar producing a truly ingenius way to visualize the neck. He uses the symmetry of the augmented and diminished chord to lay out areas of the neck to play over during improvisation to "easily" (with a lot of dedication) navigate the changes. I think this is his gift to guitarist (although the box is hard to open)

    As far as the minor/major sound goes, I am certain that Pat can use his system to produce any sound he wants depending on the how he applies the minor conversions to the bass line (which follows the original changes). However, he definitely does favor "visualizing" major and dominant sounds in terms of minor chords which I believe is a practical outgrowth of the way he organizes the neck. For example - D-7/G7/CM7 - he may convert to Am/Abm(melodic)/Em this gives a D-9/G7#5b9/CM9 sound but as far as visualizing the neck - each position he uses will lie within on fret of each other. Joe Pass, on the other hand visualized the D-7 as a G7sus and simply might play various dominant lines with all kinds of clever extensions before resolving to a CMa sound.

    In my opinion, the difference between the Pat Martino sound and that of Joe Pass is that Pat's sound tends to be characterized by a continuos flow with ambiguous resolution points that naturally come from his minor conversions, while Joe has very strong punctuated resolution points in his phrasing which comes from using more traditional ii/V/I with lots of dominant substitutions. Each has their own incredible voice.

    I think by spending some time trying to understand how Pats organizes the neck it becomes apparent why he coverts things to minor. It seems to be the most effiecient way to map out changes and inversions using his approach. Have a hard look at how he organizes the progression on Giant Steps example on his site - I think it best captures the practical side of his minor conversion concept. -

    This is a great topic...Now back to my real life.
    Last edited by Jazzaluk; 11-12-2007 at 05:25 PM.

  18. #17

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    Great explaination Jazzaluk. To me, Pat's approach sounds more modern and angular, while Joe's more melodic.

    Pat gives us dark and light, Joe gave us more tension and release. At least that's how I hear it.

  19. #18

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    I have checked out the Martino stuff that you're talking about. The target scales are minor, but they are not necessarily "minor" in sounds, it is his way of organizing the fingerboard, not sounds. For example, Pat does a lot of melodic minor subs over dominant chords, like his solo in "Oleo", but the target tones are not "minor" in sounds, but more of a scalar way of thinking. I guess one could say that one is playing in A dorian minor, but in actually, one is also playing all the notes in a G major scale. It all boils down to what the target notes the player is emphasizing.
    Anyway, just my 2 cents. Great topic and great forum.
    T.

  20. #19

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    The only thing I can think of is substituting minor arpeggios underneath of the chords. For Example Dm7/ G7/ Cmaj7 you could substitute Am7 and Bm7 for the Dm7 and Cmaj7, respectively. As for the G7 you could substitute a Bbm7 which gives you an altered sound. This way you get Dm11/ G7alt/ Cmaj9#11, all of which have some level of dissonance which may help the whole "minor feel". The Am7/Bbm7/Bm7 resolves fairly well too, due to the chromatic resolution between chords. On a completely different note... have you tried using the 6th mode of the harmonic minor? The Lydian #9 scale. It has a #9 (b3) so it gives a darker sound to a major chord. A little too dissonant for me. Anyway, good luck. Interesting discussion too. A little over my head at times, but I like it. haha.

  21. #20

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    Pat's approach is built out of his need for speed and vocabulary. One of his first books, Linear Expressions, lays out the "scales" he uses for improvisation. Though pat converts everything to a Dorian sound, the second mode of whatever key he's in, he uses all possible minor tones in his "scales" when improvising. For example when playing on a Dm7-G7 progression he would base his soloing on the Dm7, Dorian, sound. BUT he would include notes from other minor scales, so he would use the follwing intervals in his licks.

    D E F G Ab A Bb B C C#

    So the Ab is a Blues note, the Bb comes from the Natural Minor scale and the C# comes from the melodic minor scale, so he's mixing all of the minor sounds into one big sound.


    This is also cool because those same three notes are tension notes on the G7 chord, Ab is the b9, Bb is the #9 and C# is the #11. This gives Pat the ability to sound "in" or "out" and not use anything but his 10 note minor scale.

    Also in Linear Expressions Pat's scales contain many cliche's from the jazz idiom. Pat's theory of scales and improve is that playing up and down a scale isn't what jazz is, but if you see Dm7 and play D C# C D B, that's what jazz sounds like to him.

    Cool concept, Pat can get really heady sometimes, but when you strip back all the extra theory stuff his approach makes sense. This way you don't need to know a million different approaches to improv, you just know one and know how to apply it to a million different situations.

    MW

  22. #21

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    Yes, this is interesting. It seems like every musician has their own way of simplifying it all down to something manageable, then relying on their ear and experience to apply that boiled down conceptual framework. I guess that's part of the journey and ultimately defines the concept of a personal "style." Whatever framework you finally come up with that allows you to improvise without thinking so much ends up defining your style and sound.

    Of course, you have to really build up a tremendous knowledge base before you can then start simplifying. I think this is true of every discipline.

    It's the "breakthrough" concept we all experience. When one day you say, "Ohhhhh, I SEE, this is nothing more than...[insert personal epiphany of choice]"

    You've just found a piece of your personal analytical puzzle.

  23. #22

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    Pat Martino's Nature of Guitar Section on his website for a little while and I definitely appreciate some of the insights you all drop here.

  24. #23

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    Here are my thoughts...

    use 3rds to establish harmony melodically. start and end youre phrases on chord tones, major traids are very good at overiding the underlying harmony, just make sure you know where you are going to land.

    If you know what key you are in, and you know that key well enough, playing minor sounding licks should be relativley easy. as an idea, find the root of the aeolean scale for each implied key, rock the first 6 notes only, beginning and ending on the root of the aeolean. that might work.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by m78w
    Pat's approach is built out of his need for speed and vocabulary. One of his first books, Linear Expressions, lays out the "scales" he uses for improvisation. Though pat converts everything to a Dorian sound, the second mode of whatever key he's in, he uses all possible minor tones in his "scales" when improvising. For example when playing on a Dm7-G7 progression he would base his soloing on the Dm7, Dorian, sound. BUT he would include notes from other minor scales, so he would use the follwing intervals in his licks.

    D E F G Ab A Bb B C C#

    So the Ab is a Blues note, the Bb comes from the Natural Minor scale and the C# comes from the melodic minor scale, so he's mixing all of the minor sounds into one big sound.


    This is also cool because those same three notes are tension notes on the G7 chord, Ab is the b9, Bb is the #9 and C# is the #11. This gives Pat the ability to sound "in" or "out" and not use anything but his 10 note minor scale.

    Also in Linear Expressions Pat's scales contain many cliche's from the jazz idiom. Pat's theory of scales and improve is that playing up and down a scale isn't what jazz is, but if you see Dm7 and play D C# C D B, that's what jazz sounds like to him.

    Cool concept, Pat can get really heady sometimes, but when you strip back all the extra theory stuff his approach makes sense. This way you don't need to know a million different approaches to improv, you just know one and know how to apply it to a million different situations.

    MW

    That's EXACTLY it. Minor conversion really just means take these five minor-style "activities", as he calls them, that cover the entire neck, connect them up with passing tones and play them, thinking in terms of the II minor chord on just about anything. It's not nearly as complicated as it sounds.

  26. #25

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    listen to lennie tristano (piano) ... a very unique style..using classical / jazz ... he sets up a bridge to the birth of cool...bill evens...who played jazz on another level...taking art tatum..monk & peterson and put them in a blender...

    some of what i learned from ted greene was you can ingest all the great players..but what you digest then becomes you...your style...

    you can copy licks note for note and get every bit of the tone a great player uses...but its you doing it...

    getting comfortable with your own style is what takes time (years) to accept and use the vast library of music of the masters as reference points rather than playing their material as the main ingredient of your playing

    different approaches / methods are just that..there is no secret way to play...the basic rules underlie all styles and methods..study..practice..repeat..

    if you practice with discipline and go beyond your limits (this is a must)..in time you will discover that you have embraced all other methods and that if you choose you can exercise any of them at will with minimal effort...

    play well

    wolf