The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26
    e pentatonic over the c Maj 7 sound great!!

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    What does this have to do with minor conversion?

  4. #28

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    I don't like the method, but that's just me; it doesn't work with how I think.
    I feel the same way about the whole 'melodic minor up a step' kind of approaches.

    Like others in this thread have mentioned, if you play, e.g., a D over a C chord, it's going to sound like the 9th, no matter what you want to call it or how you want to think of it. Might as well just think about things in the most direct way, in order to connect it to the ears and eventually try to get away from finger patterns and licks.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by m78w
    Pat's approach is built out of his need for speed and vocabulary. One of his first books, Linear Expressions, lays out the "scales" he uses for improvisation. Though pat converts everything to a Dorian sound, the second mode of whatever key he's in, he uses all possible minor tones in his "scales" when improvising. For example when playing on a Dm7-G7 progression he would base his soloing on the Dm7, Dorian, sound. BUT he would include notes from other minor scales, so he would use the follwing intervals in his licks.

    D E F G Ab A Bb B C C#

    So the Ab is a Blues note, the Bb comes from the Natural Minor scale and the C# comes from the melodic minor scale, so he's mixing all of the minor sounds into one big sound.


    This is also cool because those same three notes are tension notes on the G7 chord, Ab is the b9, Bb is the #9 and C# is the #11. This gives Pat the ability to sound "in" or "out" and not use anything but his 10 note minor scale.

    Also in Linear Expressions Pat's scales contain many cliche's from the jazz idiom. Pat's theory of scales and improve is that playing up and down a scale isn't what jazz is, but if you see Dm7 and play D C# C D B, that's what jazz sounds like to him.

    Cool concept, Pat can get really heady sometimes, but when you strip back all the extra theory stuff his approach makes sense. This way you don't need to know a million different approaches to improv, you just know one and know how to apply it to a million different situations.

    MW
    Good explanation. I have the Linear Expressions book and need to get back into it. I got the first two activities/scales/lines integrated into my playing, but need to get on to the rest...and also to tying them together.

  6. #30

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    Really enjoyed this thread (Though it did start with a few errors that threw a few off!).
    Food for though, try these activities on Autumn Leaves (GM)

    Am7 (Am activity) - D7alt (Cm Activity) - GMaj7 & C69 ( Am activity) - F#m7b5 (Am activity) - B7b9 (Am Activity with emphasis on the b5) - Em6 (Em Activity).

    All Minor ideas but in context not at all!

    Eddie
    Last edited by merseybeat; 12-16-2012 at 09:12 AM.

  7. #31

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    Thank you for resurecting this zombie. Tangent to grammar thread, someone should explain resurection and zombies do not belong in the same sentence.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    it just seems like an awful lot of thinking...
    Well, when Pat wrote about this in his book "Linear Expressions," he saw it as simpler than the chord-scale approach. (He did not disparage that system but he thought it could be difficult to implement.) It's more a matter of playing minor lines (<<<lines based on minor chord voicings on the guitar) even if those lines are sounding against major or dominant chords. It is a simpler approach.

  9. #33

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    Yes, it's just a way of viewing the fretboard in a simplified way.

    It has nothing to do with the sounds.
    This is what confuses people. Of course Martino doesn't "only play minor chords", if the chord is major it's going to sound major no matter what fretboard patterns you're using.

  10. #34

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    To me Martino's approach is kind of related to the approach taken by Garrison Fewell in his book in terms of using minor scales and arpeggios to help map out the fretboard in a way that is "easy" to manage. I'm sure that both of them are getting at something deeper than that as well, but the two methods seem to be making something in my head click.(although in fairness, that might just be one of my marbles coming loose.)

  11. #35

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    Exactly Colin! I'd be interested to know if you come from a Rock background? I have found that my fellow Martino Linear expressions lovers that I have met usually come from the rock school! And this way of thinking seems to suit us! For me it got me away from pentatonic boxes and "Freed my mind" lol!

    This was my train of thought if anyone is remotely interested?
    The kid in this video is playing the first exercise in the book!
    He is playing 48 (albeit some similar) perfectly adequate ii V licks in this exercise!
    Displace any of those licks a minor 3rd up and I instantly have 48 altered licks! On top of that every activity holds a b5 well so there's my blues and harmonic sounds sorted too! Once I got comfortable with this I found I could stop thinking and start listening! That's a lot of information but as you say, its organised in such a way that it makes playing a lot more fun!

    That's my thought process anyway! Very lazy me!!!

    Ed


  12. #36

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    Mersey - Rock and blues for sure. The same thing happened for me - ie openned up the neck, got me thinkout outside the boxes and now that I'm a little more comfortable, I am trying to listen more and looking for other ideas. It's obviously not the only thing you need but it has really helped me.

  13. #37

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    That;s cool Colin! Things I have done to spice them up!
    • Minor 3rd up for Altered Sound
    • Add a b5 for ii V i progressions
    • Side step (4 normal then 4 down a semitone) for static ii V's and other


    For a major 7 (Say C Maj7, M9, C69 and other) Play a Dm activity, slip into an Am activity and then back!

    And the best of all! For Rhythm Changes in Bb play a Cm Activity for the entire A section (Think just Cm / / / F7 / / /) And whatever for the turnaround!

    Its endless mate!

    Ed
    Last edited by merseybeat; 12-17-2012 at 11:58 AM.

  14. #38

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    Wha's "activity"?

  15. #39

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    Played badly their like these!


    Not scales, or arps just lovely little areas of the neck too make love too!

    Ed

  16. #40

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    Minor for Pat is R b3rd 5th, all other tones (2 4 6 7) are used to adjust the contour of the line. Could be a b7 or a maj7, depending on the sound he wanted to create.
    Here's a short line from Linear Expressions that exemplifies my point.

    Gm7
    -------------------------------------------
    ------------------------------------------3
    -------------------------------2-5-2-3---
    -----------------3----2-4-5--------------<< b7 then maj 7
    ---------3-4-5----5----------------------
    -3-5-6------------------------------------

    Because of flipping intervals so quickly Pat says naming scales is not practical, so he just calls scale sounds as "activities". Works for me.
    Last edited by ASATcat; 12-17-2012 at 12:34 PM.

  17. #41

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    I see. It's similar to what I do, except I can't play very well. Ok.

  18. #42

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    Theres a b5 in that line and its NOT just a passing tone! Its actually a very important note lol!

    Good point Asatcat, but when he gets further into the book there are a lot more embellishments going on! Unfortunately a lot of people dont get past the first chapter and think they have learnt it! The young kid in the video earlier is playing the first exercise! This was about a months work for me (8 hours a day because I was in a cast due to a very heavy Harley D). Its well worth the effort to learn and internalise that excersise as it sets up Pats whole technique! The whole book took me around a year! But I can honestly say it was the best course I ever did!

    Ed
    Last edited by merseybeat; 12-17-2012 at 12:38 PM.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by merseybeat
    Theres a b5 in that line and its NOT just a passing tone! Its actually a very important note lol!

    Good point Asatcat, but when he gets further into the book there are a lot more embellishments going on! Unfortunately a lot of people dont get past the first chapter and think they have learnt it! The young kid in the video earlier is playing the first exercise! This was about a months work for me (8 hours a day because I was in a cast due to a very heavy Harley D). Its well worth the effort to learn and internalise that excersise as it sets up Pats whole technique! The whole book took me around a year! But I can honestly say it was the best course I ever did!

    Ed
    For the most part I just want to point out his use of the term activity

  20. #44

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    And you did very well mate! Im just thrilled there are a few enjoying this holy grail!!!

    Ed

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by merseybeat
    And you did very well mate! Im just thrilled there are a few enjoying this holy grail!!!

    Ed
    I have to say that, although I did find it helpful and as I say similar (sort of) to the Fewell approach in terms of mapping out the keyboard, I haven't really taken it beyond that because it doesn't really get you focussing on the changes and I am too lazy to learn all of the activities in Martino's thing to make them an integral part of my playing. Converting everything to "minor" though like they both sort of do did help simplify stuff for me.

    Like Mr B says, I couldn't really hear a minor sound when playing a d dorian over a C major or playing a A minor arp over a C maj, but I didn't really want to either so that works out pretty well too.

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by merseybeat
    Theres a b5 in that line and its NOT just a passing tone! Its actually a very important note lol!

    Good point Asatcat, but when he gets further into the book there are a lot more embellishments going on! Unfortunately a lot of people dont get past the first chapter and think they have learnt it! The young kid in the video earlier is playing the first exercise! This was about a months work for me (8 hours a day because I was in a cast due to a very heavy Harley D). Its well worth the effort to learn and internalise that excersise as it sets up Pats whole technique! The whole book took me around a year! But I can honestly say it was the best course I ever did!

    Ed
    Fortunately, I"ve owned that book since it came out. Read throgh it many times while sharing it with students. =)

  23. #47

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    ASATcat, you probably have a better understanding of it than I ever will! I probably interpret it in a completely different way lol! I came at it straight after a Melodic Minor study first so I initially heard the activities as an almost Lydian dominant sound! One of my friends just hears Dorianeque! After us trading lines during jamming we sort of came to the conclusion ii is V!
    To me its just a launch pad now! And any Embellishments are within easy reach If needed! Those lines are just so strong it addictive lol!

    Ed

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by merseybeat
    ASATcat, you probably have a better understanding of it than I ever will! I probably interpret it in a completely different way lol! I came at it straight after a Melodic Minor study first so I initially heard the activities as an almost Lydian dominant sound! One of my friends just hears Dorianeque! After us trading lines during jamming we sort of came to the conclusion ii is V!
    To me its just a launch pad now! And any Embellishments are within easy reach If needed! Those lines are just so strong it addictive lol!

    Ed
    I think Martino as well as so many others have discovered that when you enlist more tones, the easier the game becomes. The essential or guide tones are the beacon as well as the root, but the root is played by the bass player in a combo so that frees you from that responsibility.
    The essential tones/bass first
    Then the other chord describing tones that can be altered or act chromatically, these are grease tones, tones that shape the sound beyond the essential stuff.

    Martino works at divorcing himself from the bondage of scales in faver of a much more chromatic world. His style is to play super linear lines.
    Matinos sense of chromaticism is no better than Metheny or Sco or Stern or Lage or Rosenwinkle,, chromatics are chromatics, but the way an artist plays with it is their mark, often really defining their tone.
    Here are two examples of what I believe to be classic Martino chromatic usages

    A7 linear chromatics in a row
    ------------------------5
    ----------------5-7-8---
    ---4-5-6-7-8----------- < linear sequential
    -7------------------------
    ---------------------------
    ---------------------------

    A7 one chromatic
    ------------------------
    -8-7-5----------------
    ---------7-5-----4----- < non sequential/broken
    -----------------------7< non chord tone
    ----------------6------ < single chromatic
    -------------------------
    Last edited by ASATcat; 12-17-2012 at 03:58 PM.

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by m78w
    Pat's approach is built out of his need for speed and vocabulary. One of his first books, Linear Expressions, lays out the "scales" he uses for improvisation....

    I think some people get confused about the difference between minor shapes (chord forms) and minor sounds.

    Pat (in "Linear Expressions") is basing everything off minor shapes or forms but this does NOT mean everything he plays sounds minor. It doesn't. The value of his approach is that it allows for consistent fingering across all chord types. (This is especially important for Pat because he plays very fast.) In that sense, it's not important to think whether one is using the Dorian or Melodic minor scale because it's really about playing the lines that are based on minor shapes (or chord forms) and moving those shapes around.

  26. #50

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    Yeah enharmonics ...

    Although when I do major Arps over minor Regions ( rhythm section is really minor )

    It is a little brighter than the parent minor enharmonic arpeggio.

    Enharmonic Scales should sound the same .

    Question : do you think Martino would sound less dark to us if he used only parent major scales over major and minor but played exactly the same notes ?
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 03-03-2019 at 08:09 PM.