Does anyone of you use the Coltrane Changes ?

**guelda** · 09-01-2009, 12:23 PM

Hi all,

thanks for all your answers, I see it can be an effective tool to improvise if you can hear it. In a book from Corey Christiansen, it explains it can be used over major ii-V-I-I (each chord during one measure, two measures of I at the end) in this way :

| iim7 - bIII7 | bIV7M - VII7 | III7M - V7 | I |

so in C : | Dm7 - Eb7 | Ab7M - B7 | E7M - G7 | C7M |
instead of : | Dm7 | G7 | C7M | C7M |

Used like this, you resolve upon C on the very last measure, which gives a pretty hip sound according to Corey. The melodic examples he gives sounds nice but the rhythm section follow the modified chord changes, and the few examples I tried with a regular ii-V-I section didn't sound really good to my ears...

So I was wondering : do some of you use the "Coltrane change" described by Corey (for ex. on a gig where rhythm section keeps straight) ?

peace
Guelda

PS : By the way, the "Giant Steps" in-depth study by Joe Diorio is great, full of interesting ideas, what a musician !

Jazzarian · 09-26-2009, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by guelda

Hi all,

just for curiosity, does anyone of you use in his (hers) soloing the concept of Coltrane change please ? I mean really use, because I guess a lot of us have heard about it, tried some exercises and stuff, but do you use it ?

peace
Guelda

This came up recently. There's a nice depiction in Widipedia, replete with equilateral triangle within the Circle of 5ths.

**franco6719** · 10-12-2009, 04:32 AM

Originally Posted by guelda

Hi all,

thanks for all your answers, I see it can be an effective tool to improvise if you can hear it. In a book from Corey Christiansen, it explains it can be used over major ii-V-I-I (each chord during one measure, two measures of I at the end) in this way :

| iim7 - bIII7 | bIV7M - VII7 | III7M - V7 | I |

so in C : | Dm7 - Eb7 | Ab7M - B7 | E7M - G7 | C7M |
instead of : | Dm7 | G7 | C7M | C7M |

Used like this, you resolve upon C on the very last measure, which gives a pretty hip sound according to Corey. The melodic examples he gives sounds nice but the rhythm section follow the modified chord changes, and the few examples I tried with a regular ii-V-I section didn't sound really good to my ears...

So I was wondering : do some of you use the "Coltrane change" described by Corey (for ex. on a gig where rhythm section keeps straight) ?

peace
Guelda

PS : By the way, the "Giant Steps" in-depth study by Joe Diorio is great, full of interesting ideas, what a musician !

The Joe Diorio book is just beyond me technically. His II-V-I lines have unison stretches in there that I can't even reach with a sixth finger sometimes. The Corey Christianson stuff is very good. He gets you learning those changes in all keys and applying all sorts of digital patterns over them. It gives you some concrete place to start and a practicing regimen. After a while, it starts to get into your ears and then you might apply in over some simple tunes like Tune Up, etc... Then he takes you through Giant Steps, which is just one application in three key centers.

**franco6719** · 10-12-2009, 04:36 AM

Here's a pretty good article by Jim Bastian.

Jazz Exercise: Countdown - Premier Guitar

**Decapriology1** · 10-15-2009, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by guelda

Hi all,

thanks for all your answers, I see it can be an effective tool to improvise if you can hear it. In a book from Corey Christiansen, it explains it can be used over major ii-V-I-I (each chord during one measure, two measures of I at the end) in this way :

| iim7 - bIII7 | bIV7M - VII7 | III7M - V7 | I |

so in C : | Dm7 - Eb7 | Ab7M - B7 | E7M - G7 | C7M |
instead of : | Dm7 | G7 | C7M | C7M |

Used like this, you resolve upon C on the very last measure, which gives a pretty hip sound according to Corey. The melodic examples he gives sounds nice but the rhythm section follow the modified chord changes, and the few examples I tried with a regular ii-V-I section didn't sound really good to my ears...

So I was wondering : do some of you use the "Coltrane change" described by Corey (for ex. on a gig where rhythm section keeps straight) ?

peace
Guelda

PS : By the way, the "Giant Steps" in-depth study by Joe Diorio is great, full of interesting ideas, what a musician !

I also devote a section in my book, Gateway to Guitar Improvisation, calling it "Countdownians." There I demonstrate create lines through the said progression.

-TD

**SwingSwangSwung** · 10-19-2009, 05:26 PM

Talk about analyzing Giant Steps! I found this on the net. Wow - finally someone who looks at improvisation exactly like I do...........

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/ava...ted/dmfetd.pdf

**franco6719** · 10-20-2009, 04:12 AM

Markov chains and deep structural analysis of the combinatorial asymptoptic asmosis.

Jesus Christ, that's the sort of thing that made me abandon my nightmarish journey into the world of computer science and math and go BACK into music in the first place. I REFUSE to read it under pain of waterboarding. Period. If jazz becomes all about that, I will then switch to simple blues or something.

**mangotango** · 10-20-2009, 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by SwingSwangSwung

Talk about analyzing Giant Steps! I found this on the net. Wow - finally someone who looks at improvisation exactly like I do...........

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/ava...ted/dmfetd.pdf

There's 92 pages of that cr@p??

+1 on Franco's comment - throw it away and play the tune, then change it slightly, then change it slightly more. That's jazz enough for me, buddy!

Anything more than that, I'll play a blues. Over everything.

**guelda** · 10-20-2009, 06:10 AM

What a great document ! I can't wait to read it !
...well, I guess I'll have to take some maths lessons before, it looks
tough !

There must be a lot of such thesis, this one looks quite "clear" but
I agree this kind of analysis shouldn't replace the ear.

peace

**larry graves** · 11-19-2009, 04:01 PM

I wonder if john Cotrane was wrapped in all this rocket science, if he was
no wonder he went modal,it's easier,is'nt it?. When all else fails we've still
got the blue's..LG..

**Shadow of the Sun** · 11-20-2009, 04:27 AM

I actually think that that kind of analysis of jazz is a very interesting viewpoint to have; to me, it shows just how amazing jazz soloists are when compared to computers; it shows that they can't be replaced.

**franco6719** · 11-20-2009, 05:43 AM

Originally Posted by larry graves

I wonder if john Cotrane was wrapped in all this rocket science, if he was
no wonder he went modal,it's easier,is'nt it?. When all else fails we've still
got the blue's..LG..

Not necessarily easier, just different. Easier to "hear" certainly, IMO. Anyway, for a musician of the level of Coltrane, I think he probably just tired of the "change running", harmonic exploration and, under the influence of Indian and African music, wanted to try more melodic and rhytmtic experimentation. The "modal" allows more space and time for that, and then the free stuff even more so.

**franco6719** · 11-20-2009, 05:45 AM

Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun

I actually think that that kind of analysis of jazz is a very interesting viewpoint to have; to me, it shows just how amazing jazz soloists are when compared to computers; it shows that they can't be replaced.

Fair point. It is useful in its academic way.

**larry graves** · 11-20-2009, 12:35 PM

Free is right, Coltrane went so free that nobody could play with him, except a couple of drummers. If he had lived I wonder how free he would
have become?. Is there a limit before you vanish in a puff of smoke?.
It would be great to just pick up the guitar and make it all up as you go
along__ 'Is there an audience out there?.. It can be a cop out though for
some--Noise guitar etc...

Flatwounds are the best ar--round

**larry graves** · 11-20-2009, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by franco6719

Markov chains and deep structural analysis of the combinatorial asymptoptic asmosis.

Jesus Christ, that's the sort of thing that made me abandon my nightmarish journey into the world of computer science and math and go BACK into music in the first place. I REFUSE to read it under pain of waterboarding. Period. If jazz becomes all about that, I will then switch to simple blues or something.

Giant steps--great song, anyone know the words?..

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 11-20-2009, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by larry graves

Giant steps--great song, anyone know the words?..

Giant steps in giant shoes:

Actually, many people have had a go at setting lyrics to Giant Steps.

**3shiftgtr** · 04-21-2010, 03:24 AM

I have never in all of my born days, think I'd live to see a thread on a JAZZ site, that goes on and on hacking on the Coltrane changes. And Coltrane. I mean, just, wow.....

**larry graves** · 04-21-2010, 02:01 PM

Coltrane basic changes in G. Ami7-Bb7-Ebmaj7-F#7-Bmaj7-D7-Gma7. It's that simple. Fusion! what's that? Rock and roll, without the rock!..Larry G.

**3shiftgtr** · 04-22-2010, 03:13 AM

Originally Posted by larry graves

Fusion! what's that? Rock and roll, without the rock!..Larry G.

LOL...roll and roll....

**franco6719** · 04-22-2010, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by 3shiftgtr

I have never in all of my born days, think I'd live to see a thread on a JAZZ site, that goes on and on hacking on the Coltrane changes. And Coltrane. I mean, just, wow.....

Is that a bad or good thing? Oh, "hacking" means babbling or something?

**3shiftgtr** · 04-22-2010, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by franco6719

Is that a bad or good thing? Oh, "hacking" means babbling or something?

"Hacking" is southern slang for verbally putting someone or something down, or speaking negatively about someone.

And after reading the negative comments here, I am just stunned. Coltrane was one of the jazz language's greatest innovators. And his playing is alternately beautiful, sensitive and sublime, as well as intense, physical and bold.

To me, some of these comments here about Coltrane are like saying that Wes played like a wimp.

Just crazy......

**franco6719** · 04-24-2010, 04:49 AM

Oh, I agree completely. Coltrane was THE greatest improviser of the 20th century (if not the greatest and most creative musician) in my opinion. There are, of course, a lot of petty whiners in the world of jazz, as in all sectors of the world, who like to tear down things that they cannot even come close to beginning to fathom. What else can be said?

**wolflen** · 03-20-2011, 07:03 PM

i use the first five notes and five chords in giant steps as an exercise and use as many positions. chord inversions and keys as possible...a great way to do a fretboard intensive...

every now and then i can use part of it in a structured song...but i can use most of it in alot of solo work...

**FattMusiek** · 03-27-2011, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by JohnW400

John McLaughlin does "Do you hear the voices you left behind?" on his ELectric Guitarist Album.

They probably would become more useful if you streched them out to be a measure a piece rather than two beats

Just listened to this thing...the bassist is nuts man! Wtf. haha

**WVNicholson** · 03-24-2012, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by FattMusiek

Just listened to this thing...the bassist is nuts man! Wtf. haha

The bassist on "Do You Hear the Voices You Left Behind?" on John McLaughlin's Electric Guitarist album is Stanley Clarke. I thought it might be Jack Bruce who however is the bassist and provides vocals on "Are Yew the Wan?" on the same album,

William