The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Posts 26 to 47 of 47
  1. #26

    User Info Menu

    The standard jazz blues progression is still just the 3-chord trick with substitutions.

    G13 - C9 - G13 - Dm7/G13
    C9 - C#o - G13 - E7#9
    Am7 - D7 - G13/E7#9 - Am7/D7

    The E7 in bar 8 is only a sub for G (G = Em = E7). So what you play over G will still fit. (It's also the V of Am which is why it flows nicely. Clever, these Chinese :-))


  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

    User Info Menu

    Look for the "jazzduets" channel on YT - recently the guy who is running it has posted some clips on blues progressions including one where he has collected all or most of the possible substitutions in a comprehensive chart.

    Other than that: the genre itself follows its own rules regarding harmony etc. Basically all major chords are dom7 chords. Then you have the b3 in the melody against the 3 in the I chord plus other blue notes. It's kind of a tug of war between western harmony and melodic tradition of Africans - and don't forget the different concepts of rhythm (often overlooked).

  4. #28

    User Info Menu

    Short answer: harmonic rhythm tension singularity!

    Long answer... Look at this 12 bar form:

    [1 1 1 1] [1 1 1 1] [1 1 1 1] [1 1 1 1] [4 4 4 4] [4 4 4 4] [1 1 1 1] [1 1 1 1] [5 5 5 5] [4 4 4 4] [1 1 4 4] [1 4 1 5]

    Then like this...

    1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
    4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
    5 5 5 5 4 4 4 4 1 1 4 4 1 4 1 5

    Then like this...

    1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
    4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
    1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
    5 5 5 5
    4 4 4 4
    1 1
    4 4
    1
    4
    1
    5

    That last one may be analysed (constructed) as:

    4 sets of 4 = 16

    split the line above (4 sets of 4 = 16) in two

    2 sets of 4 = 8
    2 sets of 4 = 8

    split the line above (2 sets of 4 = 8) in two

    1 set of 4 = 4
    1 set of 4 = 4

    split the line above (1 set of 4 = 4) in two

    1 set of 2 = 2
    1 set of 2 = 2

    split the line above (1 set of 2 = 2) in two

    1 set of 1 = 1
    1 set of 1 = 1

    Since this is a geometric process it keeps going like Zeno's paradox, approaching the end of the 12th bar, but we have to set a cut-off (in this case at the "length" of 1 beat), so the outstanding remainder is capped by the last two beats whose resolution matches the previous level...

    1 set of 1 = 1
    1 set of 1 = 1

    What this all means is that the Blues form approximates a geometric progression of shorter by one half spans of distance between chord changes, which builds fundamental harmonic rhythm tension - you can hear the time between the chord changes coming faster and faster, so you hear, project, and anticipate a harmonic rhythm tension singularity as you approaching the end of the 12th bar... this is why the solos tend to repeat lines (like the vocals) and then both place their hooks (vocals) or focus their peaks (solos) through the turnaround.

    All in all, this is about the most ingenious, amazing, and wonderful thing anyone has done to squeeze so much music out of three chords - Blues!

  5. #29

    User Info Menu

    Bottom line:

    Here’s how far I have it. Key of G: The I chord is actually G major and changes to G7 to tonicize the C (IV chord). Then the C becomes C7 which in theory would want to resolve to F7 but it goes back to G. Why does that work? I have no issue with the D7 because it’s theV7 chord.
    Wrong theory. It's not a C7, it's a C embellished with some soul-weary moans a la blues singers.

    But why does D7 to C7 work?
    Why shouldn't it? It's D7 to C in G. Found in a million songs. Playing IV to I (instead of V to I) is called a Plagal cadence.

    Plagal cadence | Definition of Plagal cadence at Dictionary.com


    And, if Paul's explanation doesn't satisfy, I guarantee nothing else on earth will :-)

  6. #30

    User Info Menu

    Tommo -

    I had a chart once (photo-copied from a library). It was huge. It was all in C and the last example (of god knows how many, about 20 +) began with F#m7b5.

    Makes perfect sense, after all :-)

  7. #31

    User Info Menu

    Here's a summary of jazz-variations on the blues progression from Jamey Aebersold's Jazz handbook. He got it from Dan Haerle's book on jazz/blues. Each of these can be pretty much explained by using secondary dominants, back-cycling, etc.

    Twelve Bar Blues Chord Analysis-blues-progressions-jpg

  8. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by guitarboy
    I’ve been playing guitar for 40 years and teaching guitar for 15 years and recently I have two student inquiries wanting to learn blues guitar. I have some time before they want to start so I wanted to try again to get to the reason why the basic 12 bar blues progression works and sounds good. So this would be a chord progression analysis. In college I had a professor say don’t analyze the blues, it sounds good because it sounds good. I think maybe it can be analyzed or the precise reasoning on why those chord changes work can be revealed and maybe he just didn’t want to get into it at that time. Here’s how far I have it. Key of G: The I chord is actually G major and changes to G7 to tonicize the C (IV chord). Then the C becomes C7 which in theory would want to resolve to F7 but it goes back to G. Why does that work? I have no issue with the D7 because it’s theV7 chord. But why does D7 to C7 work?
    But D7 to C7 works BECAUSE of what your professor was talking about. You can't completely disregard that statement. Blues isn't traditional, functional western music, harmonically or melodically.

    Melodically, G minor blues doesn't "work" at all over the progression either. You can talk about modal this and that, but it's its own form from the start and isn't clean, western music, evolved from European tradition.

    If anything, the Jazz subs for blues confuse it even more , because they borrow so much from traditional functional harmony. They also fill-in a lot more melodically, giving it a lot more options, and they use a lot of functional guidelines for chord of the moment. But the whole FORM is still blues and has to be understood as being different from traditional tin pan alley standards or from Western classical music.

    12 bar blues itself is a kind of "westernizing" of traditional blues. I wouldn't necessarily say that jazz blues is doing the same thing to a larger extent, but it definitely disguises it even more.

  9. #33

    User Info Menu

    WHole great chapter of blues chord subs and explanations in Ted Greene's "Chord Chemistry" too.

  10. #34

    User Info Menu

    Not content , just presentation

    |G13 |C9 |G13 |Dm7 G13|
    |C9 |C#o | G13 | E7#9. |
    |Am7 | D7 | G13 E7#9. |Am7 D7 |


    I hope not to offend you Rag
    I got rid of your - and / symbols ......

    don't that present better ?

    P.s. i thought we'd (nearly all) agreed this already

  11. #35

    User Info Menu

    Canonical theory does not account for bend notes... maybe a look at them would clarify the Blues?

    For the type occurrence of major, seventh, or minor as the one, four, or five chord, the bending of both the fourth and the dominant seventh (those degrees with respect to the key tonic chord) is unrestricted within the full span of a whole interval (all micro bend stations are included).

    A Blues harmonic theory must explain the restrictions bending the minor third of the one chord through the various types of one, four and five chords - in only two cases is the bend unrestricted, in all others the interior of the interval span must be avoided, except only a very slight sharpening of the A# - the minor third bend is unrestricted only on the one chord when not minor.

    Minor third bends (all examples are A# in G)

    Unrestricted
    G major chord as the one: bends full span to C (all micro bend stations)
    G7 chord as the one: bends full span to C (all micro bend stations)

    Restricted
    Gm chord as the one: bends only to C (only micro bend station is just slightly sharp of A#)
    C major chord as the four: bends only to C (only micro bend station is just slightly sharp of A#)
    C7 chord as the four: bends only to C (only micro bend station is just slightly sharp of A#)
    Cm chord as the four: bends only to C (only micro bend station is just slightly sharp of A#)
    D major chord as the five: bends only to C (only micro bend station is just slightly sharp of A#)
    D7 chord as the five: bends only to C (only micro bend station is just slightly sharp of A#)
    Dm chord as the five: bends only to C (only micro bend station is just slightly sharp of A#)

    There is already a clue within all this about the Blues... I'll watch to see if anyone discovers it.

  12. #36

    User Info Menu

    There's no clue. Bending notes is merely a vocal style to project emotion. It's irrelevant to the basic 1-4-5 form and its variations.


  13. #37
    Your perspective on the blues chord changes sounds right on to me. You mentioned always think function and when I see a dominant seventh chord I think of that chord as going back to I, as that being its function. So a dominant seventh chord does not always have to have a resolving function but can be ornamental as you say, with the b7’s just being color tones. Fascinating! I so enjoy the study of jazz guitar, even though this was a blues guitar concept, lol. Thanks, John

  14. #38

    User Info Menu

    guitarboy -

    The dominant chord in, say, C major is a G major triad. Extending that triad with the note F makes it a G7. Strictly speaking, the colour tones are the notes beyond the 7, which are the 9, 11, and 13. That would also include the altered variations, like G7b9 or G13b9#11, and so on.

    As for resolution, it depends. In the progression Em-A7-Dm-G7-C, the A7 doesn't resolve to C but it does resolve to Dm which is its 1 chord, if you like to put it that way. Dm is also the ii chord of C, so the A7 is called the V of ii. But usually we just say the G7 resolves to the 1 chord and the A7 is a secondary dominant.

    There are many tunes in which dominant chords don't resolve to the 1 chord, either of the tune as a whole or their 'own' 1 chord if considered as a V. For example, in the tune 'Sunny Side Of The Street' it goes C-E7-F-G7. The E7 doesn't resolve either to an Am chord or to C, the 1 chord.

    I know you said you'd been playing for 40 years but it might be of use to you if you revised some basic music theory since you may have forgotten it by now!

    I don't mean to be impertinent, of course. This stuff can be pretty confusing even for skilful players.

  15. #39
    Well you have now opened me up to the option thinking of the b7’s in dominant seventh chords as color tones which is definitely how I’m going to think of them in blues from now on but I am also aware of the upper extensions and altered 5th’s and 9’s being normally thought of as the more legitimate color tones. The E7 in Sunnyside of the street I think of as actually originally being E minor with the E7 being played as a substitute. The b7 of E7 now being a color tone plus the major 3rd (G#) playing a part as well. Yes my thinking on music theory definitely drifts off into misconceptions at times but it’s people like you ragman1 that I need to check in with to get on the right track. Thanks again very much ragman1. My one blues student is starting tomorrow so I’ll have a more confident perspective thanks to you. Have a happy Thanksgiving!?

  16. #40
    Actually I’m drifting already or just had too much coffee. The b7 of E7 is true to the key, the major 3rd (G#) is the color tone. Lol

  17. #41

    User Info Menu

    Ali Farka Toure (from Mali) made a great record with Ry Cooder, very bluesy atmospheric sounds.


  18. #42

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by guitarboy
    Actually I’m drifting already or just had too much coffee. The b7 of E7 is true to the key, the major 3rd (G#) is the color tone. Lol
    Ah, well, actually...

    Chord names and intervals aren't determined by the key of the tunes they happen to be in. That E7 in the key of C in 'Sunny Side' has the notes E G# B D, as we know. If the note names were determined by the key of C then the D wouldn't be a flat 7 - because it's natural in the key of C. Likewise, the G# - if it were determined by the key of C - would have to be a #3.

    Fortunately, this isn't the case otherwise the chord names would have to be changed every time the key changed. Which is a bit silly.

    Chord names/ intervals are determined by their relation to the major scale of the root of the chord. So E7 = E major. In relation to the E major scale, the D of E7 must be flat because in E the D is sharp. Likewise the 3rd of the chord, the G#, is unaltered because it's diatonic to the E major scale.

    So it's actually the other way round from what you've said in the quote. It's the G# which is true to the key (of E) and the D natural which is the 'colour tone', if you want to call it that. It's the other way round.

    Earlier, we said take the function of a chord in its particular context. That will tell you the relation of the chord to the key of the tune. But the note names of the chord are determined as above. So that E7 in 'Sunny Side' is a III7 in the context of the tune but the natural D note is a b7 in the context of the chord. Does that make sense?

    Theory is a pain in the butt, but that's life. In fact, it's so ungripping that it's only a matter of time before I make some obvious mistake and get corrected by someone here.

    Do what I do, leave theory to the theorists, just play some nice music. It's what it's for

  19. #43

    User Info Menu

    guitarboy -

    Oh, dear. No, the note names in chords are relative to the chord root's major scale. G# is simply the 3rd of the E major triad, so it's not a colour tone. The D note is the seventh note flattened of that scale, hence b7 - even though we write the chord E7 without the b sign.

    I used to get this wrong too because I thought the alterations had something to do with the chord's relation to the tune and its key. Ironically, it was Matt who put me right on it. It was some time ago now and those posts are lost in threads somewhere. It would be helpful to find them but god knows where they are.

    I told you, don't get involved with theory, it'll mess with your head :-)

  20. #44
    "Color tone" is another term of ambiguity, used by different teachers and players in different ways.

    It's not a thing. It's not codified. Therefore, it's not really something you can debate that way. We can all argue about who's right, but it's pointless.

    It's not a concrete term in music.





    I had teachers back in the day refer to the third as the color tone...
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 11-29-2019 at 01:11 PM.

  21. #45

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    guitarboy -

    Oh, dear. No, the note names in chords are relative to the chord root's major scale. G# is simply the 3rd of the E major triad, so it's not a colour tone. The D note is the seventh note flattened of that scale, hence b7 - even though we write the chord E7 without the b sign.

    I used to get this wrong too because I thought the alterations had something to do with the chord's relation to the tune and its key. Ironically, it was Matt who put me right on it. It was some time ago now and those posts are lost in threads somewhere. It would be helpful to find them but god knows where they are.

    I told you, don't get involved with theory, it'll mess with your head :-)
    Using the major scale reference to a chord's root is an option that some like - but is unncessary.

    I find more jazz and classical texts explain chords in terms of their intervals. Some use a stacked thirds description, others simply describe the qualities of intervals above the root (Major 3rd, Perfect 5th, Minor 7th, etc).

    I personally find that to be the simplist and most useful method that is resilient to symbol and tonal ambiguities.

  22. #46

    User Info Menu

    If your going to get into playing the blues... learn how to Play I IV's.... The V chord is just for shaping the Form. And 12 bars is just the most common form.

    And even more to the point would be Tonic to Subdominant.

  23. #47

    User Info Menu

    Not wanting to get into this discussion, but I've been learning an acoustic blues from the 1930s that has moves that were common then but less common now. Fun to play.

    Here's Duke Robillard's version of it. I think he captures that spirit well. (Aretha Franklin did a very uptown version back in the '60s.)