Emily Remler: Lydian over major 7th?

[Little Jay]

Hello forum-people,

Can anyone help me out and shine his light over the following:

Laterly I've discovered guitarist Emily Remler. To me she's not a 100-notes-per-second virtuozo, but she has an incredible tastefull taste of playing the right notes and a great feel and swing. I am very impressed.

But I read an artikel (here: http://www.allthingsemily.com/pdfimages/GP81.pdf) in which she declares that she focusses on only two scales: melodic minor and lydian. Her explanation about how and where to use the melodic minor scale is very clear to me, but I was somewhat surprised to read she uses the lydian scale over major 7th chords (C lydian over a Cmaj7 for example)

This surprises me because for me, the lydian is the 4th of the modes and contains a raised 4 (WWWHWWH) compaired to the 'normal' major scale (Ionian, WWHWWWH). Personally I use the lydian scale over suspended chords (sus4, Bb lydian over Csus4 for example) or augmented chords (m7b5), but for major 7 I always use the Ionian scale.

Any thoughts on this? Is this common practise?

[music_tech]

In the key of C major you play a F lydian from the B half diminished chord. If you work out the notes for F Lydian they should be F,G,A,B,C,D,E which fit the Key of c Major. Go up a Flat 5 from B = F. You have your answer.

For minor 7th chord you go up a minor 3rd. For eg. in key of CMaj the ii chord is Dmin7 so you use F Lydian. Your notes are F,G,A,B,C,D,E,F. It still fits that Key of CMajor.

[newfornow]

the only difference between lydian and ionian is the #4 in lydian, which is a much better note than a natural 4 on a major chord

[Little Jay]

@ music_tech: F lydian for C major is the way I approach it indeed, but Emily plays C Lydian over C major! Hence my question if this is done more often...

Of course the best way to find out is to experiment myself and I will of course..... I'm currently surfing the web for more info (haven't got my guitar at the office....) and Marc Sabatella, author of "A Jazz Improvisation Primer" states the following:

The fourth mode of the melodic minor scale is known as the lydian dominant scale. This name derives from the fact the scale outlines a dominant seventh chord but also contains the raised fourth, characteristic of the lydian mode.

The raised fourth is the only difference between this scale and the mixolydian mode. The raised fourth is less dissonant, and more colorful, than the natural fourth over an ordinary dominant seventh chord.

Therefore, the lydian dominant scale is often preferred over the mixolydian mode over any dominant seventh chord, unless the natural fourth is explicitly specified, as in a sus chord. The lydian dominant scale is always preferred if the raised fourth is explicitly specified, as in dominant seventh sharp eleven chord.

Because the raised fourth is enharmonic with the lowered fifth, this chord is often notated 7b5 rather than 7#11. Some arrangers, however, intend the notation 7b5 to indicate a different scale, such as the diminished scale or the whole tone scale, to be discussed later.
The sound of the raised fourth - or, enharmonically, the flat fifth, which is how the majority of musicians referred to it - is characteristic of bebop. In fact, one story is that word bebop itself came from the following phrase, which was played by many bebop musicians, and which might be pronounced "be-bop" if one were to try to sing it.

Back in the 1940's, this was considered extremely dissonant, and was the source of considerable controversy. Today, however, most musicians and listeners have become accustomed to this sound and it no longer seems so harsh.

I am wondering if the article simply made a typo and should say C lydian over C dominant 7th instead of C major 7th. So this I why I would like to hear more about the Lydian scale and it's use on major 7th chords with the same root!

[Little Jay]

the only difference between lydian and ionian is the #4 in lydian, which is a much better note than a natural 4 on a major chord

Ah! I will have to experiment with that then! Thanx!

[music_tech]

Its c major and its all correct from what she says

[music_tech]

I always use the lydian mode on the i and ii chord and then i use the melodoc minor on the fifth chord. All sounds good in a ii-v-1

[Little Jay]

Thanx! Seems like I have something new to study on!

Weel, aren't all guitarplayers perpetual students?

[music_tech]

I learnt this stuff a long time ago in music school. Its good to go and look at it all once in a while. To much of it can drain you out but it all makes sense to me. Emily is right that you dont need to learn all the scales.Learn the important ones that you need to use especialy for a MAJOR chord quality MINOR chord quality and DOMINANT chord. Thats why we have ii-v-i in Jazz.

[ZzaJMarc]

Its very rare you will hear the perfect 4th in a comping on a C major Chord. If the comper put some extensions, he is most likely to put the #11 over the perfect 11. Playing lydian is always ok in that case. So C lydian on Cmajor is totaly playable. Try playing with de C arp and the D arp from the G major scale (C lydian)

[Goofsus4]

I use the b5 (#4) when playing lines over a major 7 all the time. But I use it at an approach tone or to connect a chromatic run to the 3rd or to the 5th, etc. I suppose that is the same as playing Lydian mode over a major7, but I just don't think of it that way. To me it's just a chromatic I use with my arps. In any event, the lines sound good to me.

[John Curran]

I am wondering if the article simply made a typo and should say C lydian over C dominant 7th instead of C major 7th. So this I why I would like to hear more about the Lydian scale and it's use on major 7th chords with the same root!

I think you're combining two different applications here.

Marc Sabatella's reference is to a lydian b7 scale (lydian dominant), used in a melodic minor tonality. e.g. F lydian b7 being diatonic to C melodic minor.

Emily's usage was C lydian against a C major tonality.

According to George Russell's lydian chromatic concept, it's common to use C lydian over C major 7th (as a Imaj7 chord). The #4 in the lydian adds harmonic color (the #11th) to a I major tonality.

hope this is of help.

john

[Little Jay]

Well, I dug deeper into the whole lydian over major 7th thing and a whole new world opens up.

I tried to listen to post boppers and more modern players and now I (think) I discovered that this lydian thing is part of the evolution of sounds in the jazz, and you can realy expand this concept to sound more modern: B minor pentatonic over C major 7th for example (emphasize the augmented 4th). Try it out! Herbie Hancock was on it 50 years ago already.

I got this exercise from my teacher:
Try playing the follwing chords: Dm7 - G7alt - Cmaj7(#11) - A7alt (A II-V-I-VI also). With every chord there is a pentatonic major scale:

Dm7: A m7 pentatonic
G7: Bb m7 pentatonic
Cmaj7(#11): B m7 pentatonic
A7alt: C m7 pentatonic

Shifting repeated patterns within the pentatonic scales work realy well I think (a half step up, as are the scales of course). Gives that spacy, out-of-scale feeling.

This kind of playing realy escaped my attention so far, because I listen to fairly traditional be boppers and even more to bluesy hardbop and it's just not part of the sound-palette there. I kind of stopped with diminished and altered runs over 7th cords, but now I will spend more time on exploring this concept.

Thanks a lot for the reactions, any recomandations for artists and methods in this direction are more then welcome!

[m78w]

Cool stuff man. Check out Woody Shaw, McCoy Tyner, Mid-60's Coltrane, Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, John Abercrombie, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Early Bill Frissel, John Mcglaughlin and many more cats like that who use these techniques all the time.

MW

[Little Jay]

Thanx! I will check them out.

And on goes the learning process.... isn't it great?

[Robert W]

Hi Little Jay ,

Pat Martino's choice over a C major 7 chord is to play an "A minor7 scale". Since Martino's melodic ideas in this scale are mostly Dorian-based, you also end up with that Lydian sound. And the great thing is, the notes of the B-minor pentatonic scale are included in the A-Dorian scale

And I agree that Emily Remler was a master of the guitar!

[UKJazzfan80]

The #4 or b5 over a Cmaj7 (F#/Gb) is a nice altered sound. The 5th of a chord is sometimes said to be the most expendable and thus can be altered on a major minor or dominant chord to produce jazzy sounds.

[wordsmith]

I really like this person's enthusiasm for the road ahead. Should inspire us all!

[jonasfixe]

I didn't know Emily Remler until I read this thread.
By reading the article, I got to get an idea of her genius and altruism, because she just shares her technical knowledge with such a generosity!

Focusing on the technical part, where she says she just uses the melodic minor and the lydian, it turns out to be what we are used to:

On C tonality:

1. she says she uses Ab melodic minor over G7, when it will resolve to C
-this is the same as G altered scale (see Dirk's lesson on this)

2. She says she uses D melodic minor over G7, if it does NOT resolve to C
-this is the same as G Lydian dominant scale (see Dirk's lesson on this too)

3. She says she uses C lydian over C maj 7
-this is what most of this thread has been about

4. She says for the m7b5 she uses the lydian scale up a flatted fifth
-this is the same as using D locrian for Dm7b5 (makes sense because it is the II of C minor tonality- it has the same notes than C natural minor)

5. She says for minor chords she uses lydian up a flatted third
-over Cm (tonic), this means Eb lydian, which is the same as C dorian mode!

So if you don't get confused by the names, it turns to be very simple

PS: Oh, the guide tones part and the chord accompaniment part are very insightful, read the article if you can.

[music_tech]

Its wat i said before Jonasfixe. All you need to worry about is the Major7th chord, Minor7th Chord and the Dominant 7 th chord. 3 chords are enough. ii-V-I

[jonasfixe]

Its wat i said before Jonasfixe. All you need to worry about is the Major7th chord, Minor7th Chord and the Dominant 7 th chord. 3 chords are enough. ii-V-I

With all respect, I think your idea might work, but it is a little messy, and I think it is not what I'm saying!

In the key of C major you play a F lydian from the B half diminished chord. If you work out the notes for F Lydian they should be F,G,A,B,C,D,E which fit the Key of c Major. Go up a Flat 5 from B = F. You have your answer.

Emily Remler intended to use C lydian over C tonality, not F lydian! This means using a sharp 4 (F#)
(see the article)

For minor 7th chord you go up a minor 3rd. For eg. in key of CMaj the ii chord is Dmin7 so you use F Lydian. Your notes are F,G,A,B,C,D,E,F. It still fits that Key of CMajor.

Here we are not in the key of C major, but D minor.

Resuming, your approach could be simplified by saying that you could use always diatonic scale (Ionian starting on C).
Her approach is richer, because she uses 2 patterns, the diatonic pattern and the melodic pattern, and starts on different places, thus getting much more alterations.

I am replying because I think often over-simplification does confuse more than clarifying...

[Little Jay]

Wow! Some discussion I started... gotta love this forum!

Well, I am experimenting now with the #4th/lydian sound and it's a great new adventure. I discovered the following things so far (played some sessions and expermented with it):

- the #4th in major 7th cords when playing standards/RealBook tunes on jamsessions can be tricky (if you emphasize it), especially with a 'tradional' pianoplayer comping with "normal" major 7th chords, but it can give great flavour. Obviously when you have a piano player playing Cmaj7#11 chords it works very well

- when jamming with only bass and drums you get that instant 'modern' sound!

- instead of using C lydian over Cmaj7, I like it even better to use B minor pentatonic (emphasizing the 'lydian F#-note'), which takes you even deeper into the modern sounding territory. In standards you can then shift this patterns up or down the neck untill you reach a chord/scale to resolve it into. Great outside playing!

More to come........!

[JohnW400]

jonasfixe,

Emily Remler was an EXCELLENT player. She has an album with Larry Coryell. They blow JOY SPRING to pieces on that album. I had it on cassette and lost it. I should probably search out the CD on line

[jonasfixe]

jonasfixe,

Emily Remler was an EXCELLENT player. She has an album with Larry Coryell. They blow JOY SPRING to pieces on that album. I had it on cassette and lost it. I should probably search out the CD on line

I'm looking forward to get some cd of hers. meanwhile, I've been listening to great stuff on youtube....
emily remler - Google Video#

[UKJazzfan80]

I love her Advanced Jazz and Latin Improv video, she plays some great lines on there. Just a pity she checked out so soon.