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Hi
This is relatively a straightforward question I hope - and I hope this hasn't been asked before !
I have seen a youtube clip recently where a jazz guitarist showed a good quick tip - he played
Amin pentatonic over Dmin7
then played the same pattern one semitone higher (ie. Bflat min pentatonic) over G7
then played the same pattern one semitone higher (ie. B pentatonic) over Cmaj7
whilst not sounding anything fantastic (at least to my ears) - it did appear to work ...
Why does this shifting pattern idea work ? What's the theory behind it ?
And am wondering if there any other little neat ideas like this
Kind Regards
Chris
UKLast edited by chrisb587; 01-24-2013 at 08:40 AM.
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01-24-2013 08:37 AM
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I'd suggest writing out the notes in those scales and those chords and seeing what matches up and what extensions the scale gives you...the answer is all in there...
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Hi Chris,
It is a pretty neat trick...here's why it works:
A min pentatonic contains the notes A, C, D, E, and G which are the 5th, b7th, R, 9th and 11th of D-7. So it's kind of like just extending the D-7 chord to include the 9th and 11th extensions. Typically we don't add the 13th (or the note 'B' in the key of C major) unless we're just playing over several bars of D-7 (vamping) or playing a D dorian modal tune. We don't usually include the 13th of the II chord (the note B in this case) because the b7 of D-7 (the note C) drops one half step to this tone in the next chord - G7.
Bb min pentatonic contains the notes Bb, Db, Eb, F, and Ab which are the #9, b5 (or #11), b13 (or #5), b7th and b9 of G7...again we're just extending the G7 chord to include all of the chromatic alterations of the dominant chord. Remember, the point of a functioning dominant chord is to provide tension which is typically resolved in the chord that follows. All of these chromatic alterations are just providing even more tension than the G7 chord provides by itself.
B min pentatonic contains the notes B, D, E, F#, and A which are the 7th, 9th, 3rd, #11th and 6th (or 13th) of a C major 7 seven chord. Again, you're including the notes E and B which are the 3rd and 7th (respectively) of a C maj7 chord...these are the most important notes of the chord...and you're also including all of the "conventional" extensions of this chord, the 9th, #11th and 13th (or 6th). *Since F natural is only one half step away from the 3rd of the chord it sounds very dissonant against this chord...typically the maj 7 chord is a place of rest since we just resolved all of the tension from the chord before it (the dominant chord). So, it has become quite common to sharp the 4th or 11th degree and make it F# in the case of C major.
Another interesting trick that Pat Martino does is he basically reharmonizes chords into minor 7 chords and then plays lines based off of min 7 arpeggios and their extensions. So in the case of D-7 he would play either D-7 over D-7 (duh) or he could also play a minor 7 starting with the 5th of the D-7 chord (the note A). So he would also possibly play an A-7 run over the D-7. For G7 depending on whether he wanted to add a lot of tension or not there are tons of choices. To be somewhat consonant he would play a minor 7 starting from the 5th of the G7 chord (the note D) so he could play a D-7 run over the G7 chord...or conversely, if he wanted to sound very dissonant he could play a minor 7 chord one semitone away from the Root, which would be Ab-7. An Ab-7 (similar to the Bb minor pentatonic) would bring out chromatic alterations of the G7 chord making it more dissonant and more tense urging a stronger sense of resolution. Over the C major 7 chord he would typically play a minor 7 off of the 3rd degree (or the note E in this case).
Hope this explains some...
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I agree - it is a cool trick.
Remember that for minor chords you can play the I, II and V minor pentatonic scales and for major chords you can play the I,II and V major pentatonic scales. So for Dm7 you can play D minor pent or E minor pent or Aminor pent. For C maj 7 you can play C major pent, D major pent and G major pent. Note that the B minor pent has the same notes at the D major pent so it works in the above trick.
For Dominant chords, either a I minor pent or a I major pent both work. The trick here is that the Bb minor pent that is used over the G7 contains the same notes as a Db major pent which is the tritone sub of G7. By using the Db major pent (or Bb minor in the trick) you get all those nice altered sounds that g3l2e7n9 talks about.
Again - very cool.
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IMHO, being able to name what intervals sound good over each chord would be my approach. So if using the pentatonic shortcuts you'd know each interval name.
Guy
A popular exercise:
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1.) Play only the 3rd over each chord in the progression.
2.) Play only the 5th over each chord in the progression.
3.) Play only the 13th over each chord in the progression.
4.) Play only the 7th over each chord in the progression.
5.) Play only the 9th over each chord in the progression.
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6.) Play only the 3rd and 9th over each chord in the progression.
7.) Play only the 5th and 7th over each chord in the progression.
8.) Play only the 13th and 7th over each chord in the progression.
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9.) Play only the 3rd, 5th and 13th over each chord in the progression.
10.) Play only the 5th, 13th and 7th over each chord in the progression.
11.) Play only the 13th, 7thand 9th over each chord in the progression.
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12.) Play only the 3rd, 5th, 13th and 7th over each chord in the progression.
13.) Play only the 5th, 13th, 7th and 9th over each chord in the progression.
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14.) Play the 3rd, 5th, 13th, 7th and 9th.
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I've found that these types of exercises really got me to know the interval names.
Guy
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Originally Posted by GuyBoden
Doing this is a great exercise for ear training and for working on knowing how to spell chords instantly. Take tune start apply this to a backing track. For example play just the 3rd's of each chord, this also get you into being rhythmically creative too. Simple exercises can teach so much.
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Thanks for your input. You guys are great.
I did the exercise as suggested by Mr. Beaumont and to be honest was flummoxed by the Bflat minor pentatonic notes against the G7. But I have g3l2e7n9n's analysis (great thanks). And some exercises aswell - all good for a winter's evening !
Cheers'n beers
Chris
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For any others like me who are scratching their head over the influence of a tritone sub - here's a very useful link I found on the internet, the first example handily compares the notes of chord G7 to the notes of Dflat7 Originally Posted by ColinO
Tritone Chord Substitution For Jazz Guitar
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Last thing...if you want to be able to actually improvise with this stuff, practice it in all keys, different positions on the neck, vertical, horizontal, diagonal!
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Thanks Jake - becoming active on this site, is the best thing I could have done - in just one day I feel have been given the experience of a many lifetimes playing ....
Last edited by chrisb587; 01-25-2013 at 09:53 AM.
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Yes, the forums are great - it can get addictive to be in communication and learning new ideas all the time. I find it can become a challenge to remember to focus on just a few things and put in the 'time on the instrument' which is what really counts. Originally Posted by chrisb587
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It's also a great exercise for hammering home the feeling of moving to the 4 chord, or resolving up a 4th. Originally Posted by GuyBoden
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If you could only do one exercise, that's the one.
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If you could only do 14 exercises, that would be the one. Originally Posted by Jonzo
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Vic Juris covers pentatonics moving up in 1/2 steps for the 2 5 1.
Last edited by cosmic gumbo; 01-30-2013 at 09:13 PM.
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My discovery of the day is just sliding the ii arpeggio up a whole step for the Imaj7 chord.
Over C-7 to F7, play from the Cm7 arpeggio.
Over the Bbmaj7, play Dm7 arpeggio.
If you come up with a nice Cm7 arp lick over the F7, slide it up 2 frets and do it again for the Bb, giving it a 9th feel.
I now see the value of the minor 7 arpeggio - you can substitute it with good effect for both dominant 7 and major 7 chords.
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You realize of course that this will not be the end of this. People here will not let this go without taking it to every possibility known to man. I'll start: Originally Posted by kofblz
You are describing three chords that are tonic to Bbmaj - C-7, F7 and Bbmaj7 - which would be a ii, V, I. You can actually play every 7th arpeggio which would be tonic to Bbmaj over any of those chords - ie for any of C-7, F7, Bbmaj7, you could play any of the following: Bbmaj7, C-7, D-7, Ebmaj7, F7, G-7, Am7b5.
The reason for this - over any of those three chords, you could play a Bbmaj scale - all of the notes in all of those arpeggios are contained in the Bbmaj scale. Each of those arpeggios effectively contains notes that are part of the extensions of each other and so will "work" over each of the other arpeggios. Of course they won't all sound like you want them to sound and you have to learn how they sound over each other by practicing with them, and seeing in what context you like them - but it is a pretty cool tool.
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Also, minor 7 arpeggios are really minor pentatonic scales without the (4th or 11th). This is why they're so versatile, they don't contain the two notes that form the tritone in a full major scale. So in C major the tritone would be 'B' and 'F' together. In an A minor 7 arp, E minor 7 arp, or D minor 7 arp (all the diatonic minor 7 arps in the key of C) there are never the notes 'B' and 'F' together in any given minor 7 arp or minor pentatonic scale from the key. Hence: no "avoid" notes...there is never a tritone in a minor pentatonic scale.
Also, interesting side note: when changing keys around the circle of fifths, the tritone notes are the first to change. In C major for example: F goes to F# when ascending to the key of G and B goes to Bb when descending to the key of F.
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I'm afraid I don't understand the importance of the tritone in a minor7 discussion. I thought tritones were always dominant.
The only thing I know about using them is that they work great comping the blues or in dominant 7th changes.
Originally Posted by g3l2e7n9n
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Some cool ideas here! Entering concept steal mode
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I'm afraid you totally missed the point and what I was getting at. Originally Posted by kofblz
In simpler terms, I'm saying:
1) minor 7 arpeggios are basically minor pentatonic scales without the 4th degree.
2) minor pentatonic scales (and hence minor 7 arpeggios) can be used as soloing material in so many situations because they don't contain the two notes (THE TRITONE NOTES) that are considered "avoid" notes over certain chords.
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I'd like to see that. Can you please post the link. Originally Posted by chrisb587
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