The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Posts 1 to 25 of 32
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    I know the basic rule of scale playing over the chord--find a scale that contain all the chord tones--however, I still find it hard to do. There are 7 modes of major scale as follows and it only covers parts of chords, we still got lots of chords left. Say 7b9 chord, then I can't find a sacle that have Db and E note together.

    I Ionian mode C D E F G A B C (associated with C Major 7 chord)
    ii Dorian mode C D E♭ F G A B♭ C (associated with C-6 or C-7 13 chord)
    iii Phrygian mode C D♭ E♭ F G A♭ B♭ C (associated with Csus4 ♭9)
    IV Lydian mode C D E F♯ G A B C (associated with C Maj7 ♯11 chord)
    V Mixolydian mode C D E F G A B♭ C (associated with C7 chord)
    vi Aeolian mode C D E♭ F G A♭ B♭ C (associated with C-7 ♭13 chord)
    viiø Locrian mode C D♭ E♭ F G♭ A♭ B♭ C (associated with C-7♭5 chord)

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Balalaika
    I know the basic rule of scale playing over the chord--find a scale that contain all the chord tones--however, I still find it hard to do. There are 7 modes of major scale as follows and it only covers parts of chords, we still got lots of chords left. Say 7b9 chord, then I can't find a sacle that have Db and E note together.

    I Ionian mode C D E F G A B C (associated with C Major 7 chord)
    ii Dorian mode C D E? F G A B? C (associated with C-6 or C-7 13 chord)
    iii Phrygian mode C D? E? F G A? B? C (associated with Csus4 ?9)
    IV Lydian mode C D E F? G A B C (associated with C Maj7 ?11 chord)
    V Mixolydian mode C D E F G A B? C (associated with C7 chord)
    vi Aeolian mode C D E? F G A? B? C (associated with C-7 ?13 chord)
    viiø Locrian mode C D? E? F G? A? B? C (associated with C-7?5 chord)
    7b9 chords come from the 5th step of the harmonic minor scale.
    Eg, C7b9 comes from F harmonic minor. (F G Ab Bb C Db E).

    In improvisation, however, scale choice is usually the half-whole diminished scale (C Db Eb E F# G A Bb on C7b9), or possibly the altered scale, although that lacks a G (C Db D# E Gb G# Bb).

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    It takes more than the major scale to cover basic jazz harmony.

    There are 2 modes in major that have a b9 but they lack a major 3rd (phrygian and locrian)
    however dominant chords are omnivorous.........

    C Phrygian-----C7b9

    1 b9 #9 4 5 b13 b7

    C Locrian-----C7b9

    1 b9 #9 4 b5 b13 b7

    these can work

    The common scale content of jazz includes

    Major
    Melodic Minor
    Harmonic Minor
    Harmonic Major (a bit less)

    Whole Tone
    Dimininished
    Augmented (a bit less)

    Blues Scale
    Major 6 Pentatonic (major 6 and minor 7th version)
    Minor 6 Pentatonic (minor 6 and minor 7th b5 version)

    There are also hexatonics, and various 8 note expansions of different modes (bebop scales).

    In other words lots of stuff.

    One approach to find a 7 note scale is:

    Start with the given chord tones and fill in the missing scale degrees

    C E G Bb Db

    A or Ab and F or F#

    one clue is the notes in contextual play before and after the 7b9 chord

    another clue is what sounds best to your ear in the context

    Then as indicated above, in the dominant environment also possible are modes with all chord tones except Eb/D# (b9 and #9) instead of E (Ma3)

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    b9s are easier than #9s, imho. Why do people say, imho, when practically everything written on these forums are opinions anyway? Back to the subject at hand....

    Why not cut the cheese and go for chord tones instead? hexta-what? Oy vey! People are reading off a computer monitor here...*hurts the eyes to read such words*

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    It takes more than the major scale to cover basic jazz harmony.

    There are 2 modes in major that have a b9 but they lack a major 3rd (phrygian and locrian)
    however dominant chords are omnivorous.........

    C Phrygian-----C7b9

    1 b9 #9 4 5 b13 b7

    C Locrian-----C7b9

    1 b9 #9 4 b5 b13 b7

    these can work
    Maybe. But...
    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    The common scale content of jazz includes

    Major
    Melodic Minor
    Harmonic Minor
    Harmonic Major (a bit less)

    Whole Tone
    Dimininished
    Augmented (a bit less)

    Blues Scale
    Major 6 Pentatonic (major 6 and minor 7th version)
    Minor 6 Pentatonic (minor 6 and minor 7th b5 version)

    There are also hexatonics, and various 8 note expansions of different modes (bebop scales).

    In other words lots of stuff.

    One approach to find a 7 note scale is:

    Start with the given chord tones and fill in the missing scale degrees
    Best approach, IMO.

    At least, should be tried before going for any scale that omits one of the chord tones - esp one of the guide tones (3 or 7), like phrygian and locrian do in this case.
    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    C E G Bb Db

    A or Ab and F or F#

    one clue is the notes in contextual play before and after the 7b9 chord

    another clue is what sounds best to your ear in the context
    Absolutely.

    The last condition may over-ride the previous one - eg in the case of the popular C HW dim choice, which contains F# and A, both of which strongly contradict the common context of a C7b9 (key of F minor).

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    Chord tones, V mode of harmonic minor, half-whole diminished scale, if you must...

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    Take as a given: C,E,G,Bb and Db over C7b9 -- chord tones, baby!

    Question: A or Ab over C7b9?
    Answer: major or minor context? An F major context (C7b9 -> Fmaj7) that's the A sound; an F minor context (C7b9 -> Fmin) that's the Ab sound. Now you can go against that, but your ear should hear that, just like you hear a blues lick pushing against the chord.

    Question: F or F# over C7b9?
    Answer: either one/both/as you like. The F is more neutral but it's an avoid tone or a sus to E or an anticipation of an F chord, etc. The F# is a #11 so it's part of the bebop furniture.

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    My "go-to" scale for b9 chords has several names, none of which are importaint really.

    You can find it in the real book at the bottom of "la fiesta" they call it the "spanish Phrygian" scale. My teacher called it the "modified aux-diminished" and its also commonly called the "minor be-bop" scale (from the 5th)

    It's phrygian with an added major 3rd

    R-b9-#9-3-4-5-b6-b7

    Among the other options listed above I like this one because it stays close to the key when the b9 chord is acting as a V in a minor key, which they often do.

    However, all previously mentioned approaches (including this one) are also great choices for those chords.

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    "A chord symbol such as E7 implies 4 notes: a root, major third, fifth, and minor 7th (the notes E, G#, B and D).

    To create a chord-scale/mode you just pick some kind of 9th (2nd), 11th (4th), and 13th (6th) to complete the scale.
    i.e. some kind of 'F', some kind of 'A' and some kind of 'C'.

    add the natural 9th, 11th & 13th = mixolydian (5th mode of major scale)
    add the natural 9th, 13th and #11 = Lydian Dominant (4th mode M.Min.)
    add the natural 9th, 11th, and b13 = Mixolydian b6 (5th mode M.Min.)
    add the b9 and b13, with the natural 11th = Phrygian Dominant (5th mode H.Min.)
    add the b9th with natural 11th and 13th = Mixolydian b9 (5th mode Harmonic Major)
    Add the b9th, #9th, #11th and natural 13th = Symmetrical Diminished scale (half-whole)

    And then you also have the option of altering the fifth.
    If you replace the fifth with both b5 and #5, and add the natural 9th you get the whole tone scale. add the b9 and #9 you get the Altered scale (7th mode melodic minor A.K.A. superlocrian).


    Those are all of the chord-scales/modes for dominant 7th chords."

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Chord tones, V mode of harmonic minor, half-whole diminished scale, if you must...
    Right.

    Why make one's life more complicated than it has to be?

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    You don't have to address that b9.

    What kind of tonality/scale/sound it lends itself to depends on the degree it is built on.

    If it's a V7 chord, all the dominant options work fine.
    Players can do nat9s on a dom7b9 chord and get away with it. It's the integrity of the line as a whole that matters.

    You can try just a triad. If it's a G7b9 you're playing on, Ab triad works fine(Ab,C,Eb), gives you the b9, 11th and b13th. Try Ab minor to get a #9 instead of the 11th. Db triad(Db,F,Ab) gives you b5, b7, b9 aka tritone substitution. Eb triad(Eb,G,Bb) gives you b13th, root, #9. The root can sound anonymous so you can make it an Ebsus4 by raising that note a half step to get the b9 instead plus that intervallic structure of sus chords we all know and love.

    Try also triad pairs to get into the hexatonic options. You don't always have to conceptualize things in terms of scales.

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    Is there anything wrong with just start with a mixolydian scale and making sure you add a b9? To me that's easy and let's me think more about chord tones and how it sounds than if I try and get too complicated about it.

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ColinO
    Is there anything wrong with just start with a mixolydian scale and making sure you add a b9? To me that's easy and let's me think more about chord tones and how it sounds than if I try and get too complicated about it.
    You mean change the 9th to a flat 9th. Not 'add' right?

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by mike walker
    You mean change the 9th to a flat 9th. Not 'add' right?
    Yes exactly. Although the 9th still might work as a passing note if you're careful.

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ColinO
    Is there anything wrong with just start with a mixolydian scale and making sure you add a b9? To me that's easy and let's me think more about chord tones and how it sounds than if I try and get too complicated about it.
    What you get if you do that is a mode of the harmonic major scale.

    Eg, on C7b9, you get C Db E F G A Bb, which is 5th mode F harmonic major.
    That's an unusual scale, which might work (and is kind of cool ) but may not fit the kind of context where you normally see a 7b9 chord - which, as mentioned above, is likely to be the key of F minor. (In fact, I'm not sure I've ever seen a 7b9 chord which wasn't a V chord in a minor key...)

    That means the A at least is going to sound chromatic.

    Of course, the conventionally recommended scale on a C7b9 is HW dim, which also has an A natural (and an F# too!).
    Then again, the reason for using such a scale (supposedly) is the absence of "avoid notes", which are notes a half-step above chord tones (except the b9, of course, which is presumably OK ).
    That's why - again according to traditional chord-scale theory - the diatonic scale of the key (F harmonic minor) is not recommended, because on a C7 chord you get F and Ab, which sound bad if held against the chord or used as extensions.

    I'm not saying I believe in all this jazz theory! It makes logical sense up to a point (and presumanly aligns with how most great jazz musicians played, because that has to be where the theory comes from) - but you can see there are inconsistencies.

    So your instinct is quite right to try and make your life as simple as possible: adapting from what you know. But you're missing the main trick, which is context. So when you see a V7 chord, you shouldn't think "mixolydian", you should think "is the key major or minor?" (because dom7 chords are V in both major and minor keys).
    If the key is major, you add remaining major scale notes to the chord tones (hence "mixolydian" if you want a superfluous mode name).
    If the key is minor, you add remaining minor scale notes to the chord tones (hence "phrygian dominant" if you want a superfluous mode name). That's where the b9 comes from, btw.

    The same strategy works with secondary dominants, and will give you 5th modes of harmonic minor or melodic minor, or mixolydian, depending on the target chord of the SD.

    The same process ALSO applies when you see a dom7 chord which is not obviously a V7 (or a secondary dominant).

    Eg, it's quite common to see dom7 chords used as bII chords (in minor keys) or bVII chords (in major keys).
    In both, the same strategy (chord tones plus remaining scale notes) will actually give the scale recommended by CST:

    Eg C7 resolving to Dmaj7. Chord tones = C E G Bb. Remaining D major scale notes: D, F#, A. Altogether = C lydian dominant - but you don't choose that scale because a book tells you; you choose it because it's the obvious no-brainer choice from the context. (And chord charts often help you because a bVII will commonly be named "7#11" or 9#11.)

    How about Bb7 resolving to Am. Chord tones = Bb D F Ab. Remaining A minor scale notes = C, E, G. Result = Bb lydian dominant. Again, no book theory needed. (Other than a basic knowledge of chord tones and key scales of course!)

    To get back to 7b9 chords, the same process (from the usual context) results in the harmonic minor scale of the key, which happens to contain two "avoid notes". But you don't have to care!
    The only thing against harmonic minor, IMO, is "it sounds a bit Spanish". And jazz, you may feel, isn't Spanish ; it's American. What sounds more "jazzy" is to add chromatic half-steps beneath each chord tone. Hence the diminished scales - as used both on dim7 chords (WH dim) and on 7b9 chords (HW dim).
    Again, you don't need any justification from a jazz theory book; it all comes from a straightforward set of principles: chord tones plus diatonic scale; or (if that produces tricky notes) half-steps below chord tones. Or some kind of happy mix of the two.
    (See, there is a logic here after all... )
    Last edited by JonR; 11-21-2012 at 07:17 AM.

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by JonR
    What you get if you do that is a mode of the harmonic major scale.

    Eg, on C7b9, you get C Db E F G A B, which is 5th mode F harmonic major.
    That's an unusual scale, which might work (and is kind of cool ) but may not fit the kind of context where you normally see a 7b9 chord - which, as mentioned above, is likely to be the key of F minor. (In fact, I'm not sure I've ever seen a 7b9 chord which wasn't a V chord in a minor key...)

    That means the A at least is going to sound chromatic.

    Of course, the conventionally recommended scale on a C7b9 is HW dim, which also has an A natural (and an F# too!).
    Then again, the reason for using such a scale (supposedly) is the absence of "avoid notes", which are notes a half-step above chord tones (except the b9, of course, which is presumably OK ).
    That's why - again according to traditional chord-scale theory - the diatonic scale of the key (F harmonic minor) is not recommended, because on a C7 chord you get F and Ab, which sound bad if held against the chord or used as extensions.

    I'm not saying I believe in all this jazz theory! It makes logical sense up to a point (and presumanly aligns with how most great jazz musicians played, because that has to be where the theory comes from) - but you can see there are inconsistencies.

    So your instinct is quite right to try and make your life as simple as possible: adapting from what you know. But you're missing the main trick, which is context. So when you see a V7 chord, you shouldn't think "mixolydian", you should think "is the key major or minor?" (because dom7 chords are V in both major and minor keys).
    If the key is major, you add remaining major scale notes to the chord tones (hence "mixolydian" if you want a superfluous mode name).
    If the key is minor, you add remaining minor scale notes to the chord tones (hence "phrygian dominant" if you want a superfluous mode name). That's where the b9 comes from, btw.

    The same strategy works with secondary dominants, and will give you 5th modes of harmonic minor or melodic minor, or mixolydian, depending on the target chord of the SD.

    The same process ALSO applies when you see a dom7 chord which is not obviously a V7 (or a secondary dominant).

    Eg, it's quite common to see dom7 chords used as bII chords (in minor keys) or bVII chords (in major keys).
    In both, the same strategy (chord tones plus remaining scale notes) will actually give the scale recommended by CST:

    Eg C7 resolving to Dmaj7. Chord tones = C E G Bb. Remaining D major scale notes: D, F#, A. Altogether = C lydian dominant - but you don't choose that scale because a book tells you; you choose it because it's the obvious no-brainer choice from the context. (And chord charts often help you because a bVII will commonly be named "7#11" or 9#11.)

    How about Bb7 resolving to Am. Chord tones = Bb D F Ab. Remaining A minor scale notes = C, E, G. Result = Bb lydian dominant. Again, no book theory needed. (Other than a basic knowledge of chord tones and key scales of course!)

    To get back to 7b9 chords, the same process (from the usual context) results in the harmonic minor scale of the key, which happens to contain two "avoid notes". But you don't have to care!
    The only thing against harmonic minor, IMO, is "it sounds a bit Spanish". And jazz, you may feel, isn't Spanish ; it's American. What sounds more "jazzy" is to add chromatic half-steps beneath each chord tone. Hence the diminished scales - as used both on dim7 chords (WH dim) and on 7b9 chords (HW dim).
    Again, you don't need any justification from a jazz theory book; it all comes from a straightforward set of principles: chord tones plus diatonic scale; or (if that produces tricky notes) half-steps below chord tones. Or some kind of happy mix of the two.
    (See, there is a logic here after all... )
    Where's that B natural coming from Jon? On mixolydian?

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    Great post from Jonr, as usual.

    Couple of points.

    Often, the V chord is an Altered chord of some kind.... #5 #9 type stuff which takes on the altered scale and it's variants.
    Sometime the V chord is 13b9 chord going to a Imaj and that is a perfect time to get out the Mixolydian b2 or 5th mode of Har maj or whatever name you want to call it (just remember that you might want to communicate it quickly at some point and calling it the 'thingy scale from the F whatsit scale with a lowered 2nd degree' might not be conducive to a healthy lifestyle ).

    Often that 7b9 chord(not just a b9sus, which happens too, of course) going to a Imaj chord (it happens more than ya might think because players, writers, are a bit jaded with always hearing an altered or Diminished sound at the same point) will get extended to the 13th (no 11th).

    One more point, Harmonic minor is all over the place from Django to Bill Evans to Herbie to Chick Corea to Sco and beyond.
    Phrygian has also got the label 'Spanish' possibly more so. But that too, has happily sat in the musical lap of the greats for quite some time.

  19. #18

    User Info Menu

    JonR and Mike - Thanks for those very helpful responses. You answered my question and more.

  20. #19

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ColinO
    JonR and Mike - Thanks for those very helpful responses. You answered my question and more.
    You're very welcome.

  21. #20

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by mike walker
    Where's that B natural coming from Jon? On mixolydian?
    Typo, now corrected... thanks!

  22. #21

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by JonR
    Typo, now corrected... thanks!
    A rarity in a Jonr post.....!!!

  23. #22

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by mike walker
    Great post from Jonr, as usual.

    Couple of points.

    Often, the V chord is an Altered chord of some kind.... #5 #9 type stuff which takes on the altered scale and it's variants.
    Right. I was going to mention altered dominants, which are an exception to the strategy I outlined.
    Typically you get given the alterations in the chord symbol, which makes it a little easier. So if you see "7#5#9", or whatever, then the #5 and #9 are chord tones. That gives you 5 notes: 1-3-#5-b7-#9. How many more do you need!
    Of course, my method does mean that you would then add a 4th to the chord-scale, as that would be an extra note from the key scale; and also a 6th if the key was major. You'd find yourself with a scale running 1-#2-3-4-#5-6-b7... maybe not a great choice...
    And the other method of adding half-steps below chord tones wouldn't work too well either...

    So yes - the altered dominant is an important exception. They need their own strategy - but it still isn't one that requires invoking a special scale (although there's nothing wrong with that, the end result is the same). Personally, I didn't really get altered dom7s, or the altered scale, until I realised the whole point was half-step moves on to the next chord.

    In a sense, it's the bII7 chord (dealt with in my "system" above) with a V bass note. Eg, put an E bass under a Bb7 chord resolving to A minor, and you have an E7alt chord. The "E altered scale" comes from adding up Bb7 chord tones and remaining A minor scale notes.

    That's maybe a slightly roundabout way of getting to it, and I prefer the simple half-step concept. Every note in a V7alt (apart from the root) moves a half-step up or down (or both) to a chord tone (or consonant extension) on the following tonic, if the tonic is major. If the tonic is minor, you lose one half-step move (4>3).
    That's what I meant by not needing to think of a specific scale. It's all about chord tones (and alterations/extensions) on the two chords involved.
    Quote Originally Posted by mike walker
    Sometime the V chord is 13b9 chord going to a Imaj and that is a perfect time to get out the Mixolydian b2 or 5th mode of Har maj or whatever name you want to call it (just remember that you might want to communicate it quickly at some point and calling it the 'thingy scale from the F whatsit scale with a lowered 2nd degree' might not be conducive to a healthy lifestyle ).
    Sure.
    In my "system" (I hesitate to dignify such a simple process with that term ), a G13b9 already gives you a lot of notes: G B D F Ab E. What else is there? C! There's your C harmonic major (G mix b2), if you want a scale name for those notes, but who needs it? (And why wouldn't it work going to a Cmin too?)

    Of course, jazz orthodoxy says "G HW dim" for that chord, but that's the "anti-avoid note" or "half-step below" principle. Take G7b9 (G B D F Ab); add a half-step below every note except the root: A#, C#, E. (G is already a half-step below Ab.) Job done. Result: G HW dim scale. Use to resolve to either Cmaj or Cmin.

    It derives, of course, from the dim7 principle, where the WH dim scale is another dim7 arp a half-step below (or whole step above) the chord. That scale on the vii chord in minor translates directly to the V chord in the same key.
    Quote Originally Posted by mike walker
    Often that 7b9 chord(not just a b9sus, which happens too, of course) going to a Imaj chord (it happens more than ya might think because players, writers, are a bit jaded with always hearing an altered or Diminished sound at the same point) will get extended to the 13th (no 11th).
    Uh-huh, because a b13 is not as nice, at least if you keep the 5th in the chord... dare I say "avoid note" again...
    Quote Originally Posted by mike walker
    One more point, Harmonic minor is all over the place from Django to Bill Evans to Herbie to Chick Corea to Sco and beyond.
    Right. Only those who take Mark Levine's Jazz Theory Book too seriously would argue...
    Quote Originally Posted by mike walker
    Phrygian has also got the label 'Spanish' possibly more so. But that too, has happily sat in the musical lap of the greats for quite some time.
    True, although IMO phrygian is a little less "Spanish" than phrygian dominant. In its modal jazz appearances, I don't find phrygian sounding all that Spanish. Maybe it's those susb9s...

  24. #23

    User Info Menu

    In my "system" (I hesitate to dignify such a simple process with that term ), a G13b9 already gives you a lot of notes: G B D F Ab E. What else is there? C! There's your C harmonic major (G mix b2), if you want a scale name for those notes, but who needs it? (Jon)

    Those who want to communicate it quickly? This is old ground though(Mike).

    (And why wouldn't it work going to a Cmin too?) (Jon)

    Who said it wouldn't? Well, to be a little more exacting it is used much more for maj than min. Especially traditionally. In more contemporary music this line is getting more and more blurry. (Mike)

    Uh-huh, because a b13 is not as nice, at least if you keep the 5th in the chord... dare I say "avoid note" again. (jon)

    I don't understand what you mean with regards to what I said here, Jon. (Mike)
    Last edited by mike walker; 11-21-2012 at 08:24 AM.

  25. #24

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by timscarey
    My "go-to" scale for b9 chords has several names, none of which are importaint really.

    You can find it in the real book at the bottom of "la fiesta" they call it the "spanish Phrygian" scale. My teacher called it the "modified aux-diminished" and its also commonly called the "minor be-bop" scale (from the 5th)

    It's phrygian with an added major 3rd

    R-b9-#9-3-4-5-b6-b7

    Among the other options listed above I like this one because it stays close to the key when the b9 chord is acting as a V in a minor key, which they often do.

    However, all previously mentioned approaches (including this one) are also great choices for those chords.



    I think of it as the maj bebop (in between) scale, Here's why -

    Consider the keys C maj and A min, and the 2 5 1 of each. Lets use bebop scales.


    d e f f# g a b c d.................g a b c d e f f# g.................c d e f g g# a b c

    .........Dm7.................................G7... ..................................CMaj6


    b c d e f f# g a b.................f g g# a b c d e f..................a b c d e f g g# a (...... or ...... a b c d e f f# g a)

    .........Bm7b5............................E 7b9.................................. Am7


    So the scale for E7b9 is the "inside out" C maj bebop. I like to think of the above matrix as related and practice them together. After all, you are simply using the basic C major scale with just 2 variations, one being the added f#, the other adding the g# . Just gotta be careful which note to start on.....


    Other options for G7 Alt (in min or Maj context) may be : G-Ab-B-C-D-Eb-F-F# or G Ab B C Db Eb F F#
    Last edited by princeplanet; 11-21-2012 at 01:13 PM.

  26. #25

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by mike walker
    In my "system" (I hesitate to dignify such a simple process with that term ), a G13b9 already gives you a lot of notes: G B D F Ab E. What else is there? C! There's your C harmonic major (G mix b2), if you want a scale name for those notes, but who needs it? (Jon)

    Those who want to communicate it quickly? This is old ground though(Mike).
    Right. I guess that depends on one's current level of knowledge. If we know what "harmonic major" or (more likely) "mixolydian b2", that's fine.
    But a guitarist who's never heard of modes, and knows how to make a 13b9 chord? That's 6 notes under his fingers right away, with the 7th being the tonic of the key. (I mean the remaining note of a 7-note scale; that's the 11th of the chord, of course, assuming the chord is a V.)

    But then there can't be many of those kind of guitarists left around today... (more's the pity, I'd say )
    Quote Originally Posted by mike walker
    (And why wouldn't it work going to a Cmin too?) (Jon)

    Who said it wouldn't? Well, to be a little more exacting it is used much more for maj than min. Especially traditionally. In more contemporary music this line is getting more and more blurry. (Mike)
    No argument here .
    Quote Originally Posted by mike walker

    Uh-huh, because a b13 is not as nice, at least if you keep the 5th in the chord... dare I say "avoid note" again. (jon)

    I don't understand what you mean with regards to what I said here, Jon. (Mike)
    You said:
    "...players, writers, are a bit jaded with always hearing an altered or Diminished sound at the same point) will get extended to the 13th (no 11th)."
    I was suggesting a reason it would get extended to a 13th rather than a b13.
    However I guess maybe you were assuming b13 would be part of the "altered" sound. (It's only an avoid note if a P5 is voiced below - and I guess even that is not a hard and fast rule.)

    A major 13 is also part of the HW dim scale, of course; but - as I think you're saying - a b9 and 13 (with M3 and b7) can exist in at least one other scale, namely harmonic major (5th mode).
    Last edited by JonR; 11-21-2012 at 10:05 AM.