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Hello everyone.
Why is the Major Pentatonic scale, relative to a key, rooted three half-steps higher than the Minor Pentatonic scale?
I'm guessing this has something to do with the scale configuration (e.g. scale configuration of the Ionian scale is '1 2 3 4 5 6 7' and of Dorian '1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7'), but i just can't work it out in my head.
All i know is if a Major chord(I) is on the fifth fret, a Minor one(VI) would be on the second - and it would correspond to the VI mode.
So, opposite than the pentatonic scales.
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09-27-2012 06:26 PM
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It sounds like maybe you're confusing major and minor with major and relative minor here.
For example, if you're starting a major pent, on the root on the 6th string and them you play the same minor pentatonic, you're going to start with the same root.
A major pent = A-B-C#-E-F#
A minor = A-C-D-E-G
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There is a relative minor angle to it. Consider C major and A minor.
C major pent is C D E G A
A minor pent is A C D E G
Hmmm...
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Yeah I wasn't quite sure what the OP was driving at.
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Maybe it would helpful to look at it this way:
Originally Posted by biohazard
C minor pentatonic:
C Eb F G Bb
C major pentatonic:
C D E G A
A major pentatonic:
A B C# E F#
A minor pentatonic:
A C D E G
C major pentatonic:
C D E G A
A minor pentatonic:
A C D E G
Those last two scales have the exact same notes.
A major pentatonic:
A B C# E F#
F# minor pentatonic:
F# A B C# E
Those last two scales have the exact same notes.
The major and minor pentatonic scales are relative to each other in the same way that the major scale is relative to the minor scale. C is the relative major for A minor, A is the relative minor for C major. A is the relative major for F#m and F#m is the relative minor for A major.
I'm not sure if that answers the question, but hopefully it's helpful in some fashion...
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Actually it makes perfect sense when you guys (or even i, myself) write it down, i'm just not connecting it that way when playing.
I guess it's proactive interference, seeing as i was taught the pentatonic minor (and badly, it seems) long before i learned about modes.
Thanks everyone.
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Again this may or may not be helpful...but you might be thinking of these scales as boxes or finger patterns, when they are collections of notes relative to a root. If you haven't already, break out of the pattern by practicing the scales on a single string. Compare the differences in the parallel fashion (comparing C major pentatonic to C minor pentatonic)
Also, learn to play the piano!
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New member here..also an old guy here..
"C" Major and "A" minor are said to be relative to one another in that they share the same key signature. Both have no sharps- no flats, all natural notes.
"C" Major and "C" minor are said to be Parallel in that they both start on the "C" note and run through the same sequence of notes, but the "C" minor scale will have some flats thrown in to of course make it a minor scale.
"Eb" Major and "C" minor are relative to one another since they share the same key signature.
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You have something confused, but I'm not sure what that is because I can't follow what you're saying in you're original post.
The natural minor scale (Aeolian) is the 6th mode of the Major scale (Ionian). Originally Posted by biohazard
(i.e. three half-steps below the major scale.)
Major pentatonic = Major scale minus 4th and 7th notes
e.g. C D E F G A B; take out F and B to make C Maj. pentatonic
Minor Pentatonic = Minor scale minus 2nd and 6th notes
e.g. A B C D E F G; take out B and F to make A min. pentatonic
You see? The Major/minor pentatonic relationship is the same same as the Major/minor scale relationship.
Not Dorian. Aeolian. Originally Posted by biohazard
Minor pentaonic scales also fit Dorian because there is no 6th.
But, for example, if you're playing a D minor pentatonic and thinking Dorian, the relative major pentatonic would be based on F Lydian.
There are actually three pentatonic scales that fit within the C Major scale framework.
The C major/A minor pentatonic (same scale, different roots), built on the 1st/6th degree;
The F major/D minor pentatonic (same scale, different roots), built on the 4th/2nd degree;
The G major/E minor pentatonic (same scale, different roots), built on the 5th/3rd degree.
Opposite? No... Originally Posted by biohazard
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Hi guys/gals,
I am a little more awake, and hopefully more articulate tonight than I was yesterday. I was addressing the complete major/minor scale inter relationships, not just the pentatonic scales.
Simply said C major (ionian mode) has the exact same notes (all naturals) as A minor (aeolian mode.) They do share the same key signature and are said to be relative to one another since they do share the same key signature.
Now look at Eb major scale, and C minor aeolian mode. Same three sharps in their key signature. These are also relative major and minor scales.
Now compare C major ionian to C minor aeolian. As you stated they are built upon the first and sixth scale degrees, BUT because we are now looking at the same starting and ending note: "C" these scales are said to be parallel major and minor scales. They have the same tonic or "key note."
I was trying to clarify, and instead I "muddied the waters."
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"Same three sharps in their key signature. "
A little more sleep perhaps?
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Yes, i'm going offtopic now but this concept of parallel scales is new to me. Originally Posted by Uncle John
So basically -
C Ionian
C Dorian
C Phrygian
C Lydian
C Mixolydian
C Aeolian
C Locrian
- are all called parallel scales?
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Yes,or more correctly they are parallel to each other.It would seem t me that the next stage in your musical development needs to be some basic music theory.But you are asking the right sort of questions.As already suggested, i too suspect that you have learnt these scales as finger patterns rather than pitch collections,if you are serious about learning jazz you would need to get away from this kind of pattern based thinking.If you need help with where to start with music theory,then ask away.
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Definitely did learn pentatonic as finger patterns, that's what bothered me in OP.
The main stuff i practice is something similar to Berklee fingerings. (They're named as types - 1, 2, 3, 4, 1a, 1b, 1c, 1d; 4d, 4c, 4b, 4a. 4x are all variations of 1x only with the third finger playing the middle note instead of second)
I picked them up when i got bored of blues soloing, and they helped a lot.
After a bit of learning the fretboard notes and practicing fingerings, i deducted what later turned out to be the CAGED voicings - without even knowing they existed.
I even tried to play modes like this:
I pick a key and a mode - say C Aeolian, and then i find the guitar position where C would be the VI degree of the fingering(/scale).
Though i give up. It's way easier when you just memorize which degrees are flattened or sharpened in a mode.
Oh, i finished an elementary music school with the instrument piano.
Hence my trying to generalize everything as much as possible.
Got bored of just learning a bunch of specific scales. It's really funny, i don't know if that's how it is in other countries and schools, but e.g. the first year i learned C, F and G Major; the second year a, d, e minor,...
So, where would you guys suggest i started?
I don't really like big books, videos just pointing in the right direction are better.
(e.g.
)
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Biohazard,
Forgive for making assumptions if I'm incorrect but your original post regarding your confusion about the relationships of pentatonic scales
indicates that you are possibly a relative beginner who has learned a few pentatonic shapes and has spent most of your time playing blues with those scales.
Having grown tired of pentatonics and blues soloing you are now seeking to up your game in the direction of jazz by learning major and minor scales and modes.
Jazz is no different from any other type of music in that the main goal is to play songs. Learning some basic Major 6, Major 7, Minor 6, Minor 7 and Dominant grips along with a couple of Diminished 7 grips and applying them to songs will go a long way toward acheiving your goal of playing jazz.
Everyone wants to get right to the soloing and most people spend most of their time working on that but jazz is just like rock, country or blues in that you will spend the largest percentage of your time on stage or in a jam session playing chords behind a singer or horn player.
The two entry level tunes that you should start with should be a blues and I Got Rhythm. The blues should be a jazz-blues with long and short I-VI-II-V or I-vi-ii-V turnarounds not a three chord Chicago blues. Learn both tunes to begin in F, Bb, C and G with the goal of being able to play them in all twelve keys. Then as you start to learn other tunes you will see and hear common harmonic patterns emerge over and over again.
When you begin to try to solo rather than use scales, work with chord tones and arpeggios which form the basic platform of the swing and bebop jazz language. Once you've gotten comfortable with standards you can move into the modal tunes like So What and Impressions which use modes as the basis for soloing. From there you will be in a position to look toward more contemporary styles if you so choose.
Again, if I've misread your situation, my apologies and feel free to disregard this post.
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Well, i guess you're not that far off, except i already know and can use those basic jazzed-up chords, and a great deal of them in all five CAGED voicings (that's the same as grips, right?).
Also occasionally work on jazz-blues and Autumn Leaves, even some non-standards like Hit the Road Jack, and local schlager stuff.
Are you sure i should jump right to I Got Rhythm? It seems like a complicated change, i can barely analyze it.
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biohazard,
I Got Rhythm is considered by most players to be a major gateway tune into jazz. It employs several devices that occur over and over in other standards.
I Got Rhythm Verse Basic changes
[: Bb Gm | Cm7 F7 | Bb Gm | Cm7 F7 |
| Bb Bb7 | Eb Ebm | Bb F7 | Bb F7 :]
The first four bars consist of a two bar I-vi-ii-V pattern repeated twice. The next two bars are a common blues turnaround.
The last two bars are a one bar I-V turnaround repeated twice.
I Got Rhythm Bridge Basic changes
D7 | D7 | G7 | G7 |
C7 | C7 | F7 | F7 |
The bridge is a series of four dominant seventh chords moving through the Cycle of Fourths. The pattern is III7-VI7-II7-V7
There it is, I Got Rhythm in its most basic form, broken down into simple common patterns.
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