Substituting ivmin 7 for iim7b5 in Natural Minor

[AlsoRan]

I am having a senior moment. I come up with the notes for a half dim7b9 chord when I superimpose the ivmin7 chord over the iimin7b5 in dealing with natural minor scale arpeggios.

D F Ab C = Dmin7b5 arpeggio

replaced with

F Ab C and Eb = F minor 7 arpeggio

played over a D bass note gives me D half dim7 b9 arpeggio, with Eb being my b9.

Note that this is for soloing purposes.

Does this sound correct to you?

[shrp11]

I tend to prefer the natural 9th on min 7th flat 5's - you'll see this in the work of 'modern' players like Bill Evans, Keith Jarret, etc.

You can think F melodic minor over the D min7 b5, that works great (or any melodic minor scale a minor third up from the root of a minor 7th b5 chord).

Experiment and see which sound you like best.

[JonR]

Doesn't sound right to me, but if it does to you, it's OK...

It suggests some kind of partial altered D7 chord, but lacks the essential F#.

But the key you're working from is clearly C minor, so that wouldn't make sense.

The problem interval is D-Eb, a minor 9th. That's the classic jazz "avoid note". The only conventionally acceptable (note "conventionally" ) place for that interval is in a D7b9 chord, which is V in G (harmonic) minor, and has an F# in it. That chord is based on F#dim7 (vii in G harmonic minor) with D bass - and it has a strong dominant function.

(as shrp11 points out, jazz players sometimes add a major 9th to m7b5 chords, because of the b9 issue in locrian.)

Your chord D F Ab C Eb sounds functionally a little confused to me (only a little). As a mixture of ii and iv, it would certainly fulfil some kind of subdominant function in C minor, but (IMO) would better - or at least clearer - with either D or Eb, but not both. IOW, as either Dm7b5 (Fm6), or Fm7.

As I'm implying, there's no need to follow common practice if you find sounds you like better. But IMO this is one of those occasions where you really need to be sure you like the sound of this chord (every interval in it) and you're not mistaking it for something more common.

[AlsoRan]

As always, Thanks Jon.

A little history: I have been working through the instructional book, "Introduction to Jazz Soloing" by Joe Elliot. In the chapter on soloing using arpeggio substitution, he spell out various "acceptable" substitutions.

For example, in the key of C Major, you can substitute the E Min7 arpeggio when soloing over C major, and that particular combination of notes will give you a "CMaj9" sound.

The author asserts that you could use an F min7 arpeggio (ivmin7) to solo over a Dmin7b5 (iim7b5) but does not expand on it the way he did with the previous example.

I decided to write it out myself did not like the way it sounded and you have revealed why I did not like it - that half step between the D and the Eb.

Yet, the theory supports it as they are sub-dominants in C minor.

Is this an exception to the rule, or should I just be wary of the color that b9 would bring to a solo I might play over the Dmin7b5?

Again, many thanks for bailing me out of yet another instance in which a theoretic model may be less valid than I had first supposed. I await your response.

[JonR]

As always, Thanks Jon.

A little history: I have been working through the intructional book, "Introduction to Jazz Soloing" by Joe Elliot. In the chapter on soloing using arpeggio substitution, he spell out various "acceptable" substitutions.

For example, in the keky of C Major, you can substitute the E Min7 arpeggion when soloing over C major, and that particualr combination of notes will give you a "CMaj9" sound.

The author asserts that you could use an F minor arpeggio (ivmin7) to solo over a Dmin7b5 (iim7b5) but does not expand on it the way he did with the previous example.

"F minor arpeggio"? Or "F minor 7 arpeggio"?

Ie, does he actually mention the 7 (Eb)? That's the issue.

I decided to write it out myself did not like the way it sounded and you have revealed why I did not like it - that half step between the D and the Eb.

Yet, the theory supports it as they are sub-dominants in C minor.

Is this an exeption to the rule, or should I just be wary of the color that b9 would bring to a solo I might play over the Dmin7b5?

Well, don't treat me as an authority here! I can only say what my experience is, which is that I've never seen (or knowingly heard) a b9 on a m7b5, other than as a possible passing note. (You can certainly use an Eb in any solo phrase on a Dm7b5 - it's only when held as a chord extension that it sounds off. Same with any supposed "avoid note".)

I have read about the convention of sometimes using a major 9 on a m7b5, but I'm not sure I've seen such a chord as a ii in a minor key (m9b5 is a vi chord in melodic minor).

[bako]

D Eb F G Ab Bb C

D Eb F G Ab B C

Nothing unusual about the b9 on m7b5.
The Eb becomes b13/#5 in G7 and b3 in Cm.

[garybaldy]

D Eb F G Ab Bb C

D Eb F G Ab B C

Nothing unusual about the b9 on m7b5.
The Eb becomes b13/#5 in G7 and b3 in Cm.

I would agree.
The note choice depends on the key you are playing in.Eg in Blue Bossa in Cm you wouldnt want to play an E nat (ie nat 9th) over the Dm7b5 other than as a passing note.Cm///Cm///Fm///Fm///Dm7b5///Galt///Cm/// etc.
If on the other hand you were in say Cmaj using a Dm7b5 (which is also Fm6) the E nat note would be appropriate.An example is After Youve Gone -
F///F///Fm(6)///Fm(6)///C///A7/// etc.

[AlsoRan]

"F minor arpeggio"? Or "F minor 7 arpeggio"?

Ie, does he actually mention the 7 (Eb)? That's the issue.
Well, don't treat me as an authority here! I can only say what my experience is, which is that I've never seen (or knowingly heard) a b9 on a m7b5, other than as a possible passing note. (You can certainly use an Eb in any solo phrase on a Dm7b5 - it's only when held as a chord extension that it sounds off. Same with any supposed "avoid note".)

I have read about the convention of sometimes using a major 9 on a m7b5, but I'm not sure I've seen such a chord as a ii in a minor key (m9b5 is a vi chord in melodic minor).

I was not clear and misled you Jon.

My original question could be construed as asking about a b9 on the ii min7b5 chord when I meant to ask about soloing using that b9 over the ii min7b5 chord.

Regardless, your input was as usual, very enlightening and helped me with my understanding of what the author set out to teach.

I appreciate all of your inputs!

[mr. beaumont]

Nothing unusual about the b9 on m7b5.

Exactly. The most "vanilla" choice over a half diminished even has it (locrian)

I wouldn't call the b9 the classic avoid note in jazz...not by a long shot.

[=DK=]

Flat nine is perfectly fine on an arpeggio or in a melodic line, but I probably wouldn't use it in a chord voicing. This is mostly out of consideration for the soloist. I don't want to lock the soloist out of using a natural nine. Likewise I wouldn't use a natural nine in a chord voicing, because I wouldn't lock the soloist out of using good ole' locrian. Eleven and flat thirteen are great tensions, though.

However, everything is dependent on the situation, but you know that.

[docbop]

Exactly. The most "vanilla" choice over a half diminished even has it (locrian)

I wouldn't call the b9 the classic avoid note in jazz...not by a long shot.

The only time I've heard of b9 being kind of a avoid/special handling note is in big band arranging. Other than that very normal note to use and very common in minor ii V.

[JonR]

I was not clear and misled you Jon.

My original question could be construed as asking about a b9 on the ii min7b5 chord when I meant to ask about soloing using that b9 over the ii min7b5 chord.

No problem.
I mean in both senses: no problem with misleading (I commonly misread people ), and no problem with using b9 on a iim7b5 chord.

[JonR]

Exactly. The most "vanilla" choice over a half diminished even has it (locrian)

I wouldn't call the b9 the classic avoid note in jazz...not by a long shot.

Just to be clear what I meant: my understanding is that the "avoid note" concept amounts to any note that is a minor 9th interval above any chord tone (that's what I meant by "b9"); along with the idea of using that note as a chord extension (not in a melodic line, where it's OK).
IOW, both aspects are important: (a) chord extension; (b) minor 9th above any chord tone.

So the concept doesn't apply to melodic lines. It's about chord extensions which tend to disrupt or confuse the chord function. The common exception, of course, being the b9 on a 7b9 chord.

That's how I see it, but of course, as always, I'd appreciate your own view of the concept.

[timscarey]

yeah, totally.

In a melodic context, the b9 is a great note on a m7(b5) chord. To get picky, it's a pretty dissonant non chord tone and will sound nice if treated as such. (approached and/or resolved by 2nd). It could sound out of place as part of an arpeggio though (C-Eb-G) as the note would not resolve, but that's just a theoretical observation. (I actually just played a Cm arpeggio over a Dmin7(b5) and it sounded just fine to me)

I agree with Jon though about it being a little gnarly as part of a vertical structure, as in, Dm7(b5 b9). Mostly due to the minor 9th interval which is usually only used on dominant chords. I think most people use the natural 9 as the chord tone if they add a 9th to a half-dim at all.

As far as the minor 9th being an "avoid note", I think of it as an "avoid interval" with the only exception being between the root and b9 of a dominant 7th chord. I think in all other cases ie. (E a minor 9th below the F in a G13 chord) it tends to slightly obscure the quality of the chord and add an often uncomfortable level of dissonance, as Jon stated above.

[Double 07]

Well sure that's a hip actually pretty "inside" sound over Dm7b5 in my humble opinion. Actually it works because all of the notes in the Fmin7 arpeggio are found in the Eb major7th scale (the Locrian Mode). If your not comfortable yet with the sound then try playing a Dm7b5 followed by a Fmin7 voicing that has the root "F" as the top note. By doing that you should be able to hear the similarity between the two sounds, Dmin7b5 & Fmin7.

Sort of related to that you could also play a Maj7th arpeggio off of the flat 5th of Dmin7b5 which will give a similar if somewhat more "open" sounding substitution on Dmin7b5.

[AlsoRan]

The above two posts are duly noted. Thanks!

[brwnhornet59]

In my eyes by superimposing F-7 over D-7b5 while soloing you are playing a rootless D-7b9 (or a Gsus alt)...No biggie, I dig rootless inversions and use them quite often. In this context the b9 is perfectly acceptable as an upper extension. Try flatting the 5th in the F-7 to give you a great Valt (Vb9#5) as well..

[JohnRoss]

Note that this is for soloing purposes.

Comping also. Dm7b5 is the third inversion of Fm6, or Fm6 is the first inversion of Dm7b5, the only thing you're changing is raising the 6 to a m7, no big deal. Makes one of those nice symmetric things you can move up and down the neck in minor thirds, with either the 6 or the 7, doesn't usually matter: Dm7b5 Fm7b5 Abm7b5 etc, or Dº Fº etc., because after all these can be thought of as essentially diminished chords.
Chord-melodying too. Autumn leaves, bars 25/26 (F#m7b5/// B7b9///), can be played as Cm6 / Am6 / F#m6 / Am6 / instead, or 7ths instead of 6ths, or diminisheds, or mixing them: Cº / Am7 / F#m6 / Aº Cº.