Reg's Thread... live at the speed of Jazz

**jster** · 12-13-2012, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by jster

Hey Reg,
Where did the ii come from? You do modal interchange to switch from the tonic minor to tonic melodic minor. But then you decide to regard that tonic melodic minor chord as ii chord. What motivated that? And how is it really a ii chord given that it is still a minmaj7? You get lydian b7, but the main thing I know about that is that it relates to the tritone sub and resolves down a half-step. How is lyb b7 really a mode for a V chord? So I don't understand why it is ii-V and not a i-VI. The ii looks like a i because of the majmin7 and the V looks like a IV because of the lyd b7. And making it a ii, doesn't that imply some new i? And what about the old V? (I'm using just Roman numerals because you changed the key in your last comments.)
Thanks

@ ColinO: These are my questions. Just flatfooted questions. A long time ago I learned to greatly respect the guy in the back of the class asking the stupid question. That's me.

**jster** · 12-13-2012, 10:15 AM

[/quote]

Originally Posted by Vladan

"... I'll probaly keep it dorian ...", that first chord.

I think he just means Dorian for the very first two bars. But they get repeated a couple more times. It is during those repeats that the template comes out.

**Vladan** · 12-13-2012, 10:49 AM

May be. However, the rest of minors from MM are not maj7. So the only one that can be "kept"dorian is i. But, whatever. Reg will hopefuly say something.

**Reg** · 12-13-2012, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by jster

So is the ii chord a minmaj7? Yes or no?

Typically... no the E-7b5 A7b9 is a II V of D-. Usually that is heard and thought of as a Chord Pattern. V chord going to I- .

Hey jster... there are always different analysis going on all the time.

In Alone Together... that 1st chord, D- can be I- or any version I choose.

Could use modal interchange and drop any template onto that D- chord

So I use Melodic Min. That one chord becomes I-ma9 or any version of...
In the big analysis it's a I chord.

I can create a new relationship with a new analysis by thinking or hearing that original I- chord, D- becoming D-ma9, (from modal interchanging to Melodic Min).... thinking of that D-ma9 as now a tonal center in it's self, the D-ma9 becomes the II- of a II V. In jazz almost any minor or Dominant chord can become a II V. I can add the related V7 chord to that D-ma9 chord.

So 1st two bars could become...
D-ma9, G13#11 // E-7b5 , A7b9

So in the big analysis... the D-ma9 is always a I-ma9 chord.... but in a mico analysis that D-ma9 can also be a II-ma9 of D-ma9 going to G13#11... or what ever version of a II- V7... I choose to use . The Chord has two functions. Big analysis...I-, micro analysis... II-ma9.

How I would approach playing over the two are different... When referencing the D-ma9 as I- chord... I would create different types of relationships when soloing as compared to the D-ma9 being thought of as the II- of D-ma9 , G13#11.

In jazz there are almost always more than One analysis going on.Usually more. In the above example...

1) D- becomes
2) D-ma9 from MM modal interchange, then becomes
3) D-ma9 , G13#11, adding related V7 chord,
I could now change D-ma9 to D-9, Dorian and keep G13#11
4) D-9 , G13#11...
Now use sub of G13#11, Db7#9, becomes...
5) D-9 , Db7#9

There are unlimited developments of relationships all within that small Mico analysis, all with reference to the big analysis, D- being I-.

As Philco was saying you can simplify by calling the , D-ma9, G13#11 and Db7#9,(C#7#9) all D melodic min. The problems are the relationships are usually missed... When you don't use organized methods of development, you tend to sound unorganized...

For me part of creating jazz is all those relationships. You can memorize licks, standard approaches etc... and simply play, but takes years and when applying memorized approaches to different contexts... sometimes the subtle differences are missed.

Anyway... that's one of the difficulties of using traditional roman numeral labels with jazz analysis... doesn't work.
Reg

**jster** · 12-13-2012, 11:19 AM

Hey thanks so much Reg. Really appreciate your taking the time. So what is an example of some new relationship that gets created in the micro-analysis? The pool of notes is DMM. So we have the chords we get from harmonizing that pool of notes. What kind of relationship are we talking about? What is confusing me is at the macro level we have the same pool of notes, DMM. So what is different? I have some feeling for what you are getting at when you talk about organization, but I can't really imagine an example. Thanks.

Yeah, just one little simple example and I'll shut up.

**jster** · 12-13-2012, 11:25 AM

Maybe you mean something like you could do a tritone sub off a V chord, but it wouldn't make much sense to do it off a IV chord?

**Reg** · 12-14-2012, 12:24 PM

Hey jester...
The micro term is new for me personally, but seems to work.
So the pool of notes, the implied tonal area. We start with a tune, with general tonal implications from basic analysis. Alone together... D- or relative maj...Fmaj.
Generally that is the basic reference. D- , the IV- or G- is in reference to that D- , along with rest of melody and changes.

When we modal interchange that D- chord to Dmm. We have the option of micro approach of simply keeping the relationships only with the D-... or influencing the rest of tune. Big difference. The pool of notes or tonal area can change.

The micro approach in respect to just that D- or Dmm tonal area also can change.

Like you said, with Dmm you have collection of notes and chords built on each scale degree... lots of possible relationships with MM. But when I decide to make the D- a II- V7... D-7 to G7, I'm using the term II-V7 as a chord pattern... not a II V of I, the II-V is a tonal area in it's self. So now I have access to all the standard II V relationships. The standard subs. The pool of notes can change.
I could have G9sus, G13 / E-7b5 A7b9 or G9sus, C9sus / E-7b5 A7b9,
Ab13, G13 / E-7b5 A7b9, or D7#9, Bb13 / E-7b5 , A7b9...

The point is I'm now using the II V or D- to G7 as the reference for creating my relationships... there are lots of choices...

**jster** · 12-14-2012, 03:57 PM

Thanks. I really appreciate your taking the time. I won't say I get it all, but the bigger picture is certainly coming into focus. Thanks for those four possibilities. I got a wide open week and I'll make this a top priority.

**Reg** · 12-15-2012, 11:50 AM

In the Improve section there is a thread going on about advanved players and wasted time... or something like that. I made a suggestion about constructing a list of requirements for what an advanced player is.

Might go some where or might not... But I think I'll go in that direction here. Start with comping... We are a rhythm section instrument... somewhat.

So you need a few sets of basic chord voicings... I've posted what I believe you need to start with. Root 6,5 and 4. They will cover 50% of all jazz tunes... and get you through the rest. The next step is doing the same process with Melodic Minor and Harmonic Minor. You'll end up only using a few of the actual chords from those harmonic areas... the chords build from those scales, but you do need them.

I'll make a attachment similar to basic chords built from Major scale for Melodic Min and Harm. Min.... eventually you'll need some Diminished, whole tone, augmented and Harmonic Major. Blue Note chords are generally from Melodic Min. or just basic changes with Blue notes added. There is organization of use...

This is a very busy time of year... but I'll try and keep info coming with short Vids.

**jster** · 02-28-2013, 06:16 PM

Reg,
I have a couple of quick questions about fast tempos. 1) What is the fastest tempo that you typically encounter? 220? More? 2) What changes in your note selection? For example, do you find yourself playing more arps? Or fewer?
Thanks

**Reg** · 02-28-2013, 10:16 PM

Hey jster... Fastest tempos... hmmm... 240 to 260 is pretty common. I don't really know what the fastest would be... I think 180 - 200 is somewhat the base or reference tempo... medium. Most tunes are felt in 2 so the pulse is really never that fast. Some latin gigs in cut time are burnin. I gig with this smokin B-3 player that starts tunes off at 300 and above and then speeds up... No charts, we just play, very live and fun gigs. I think the next gig is May 3rd, Tom P from TOP might be sitting in on Tenor. I'll try and have some vids from the gig posted.

As far as note selection... just less fill between the melodic spaces. If there are complicated changes...I just do the best I can. I play arps all the time, just not always chord tone arps. I'll try and think about that tonight... post something tomorrow.

Reg

**Vladan** · 03-23-2013, 10:05 AM

ey Reg,

... When we modal interchange that D- chord to Dmm ...

I see this expression "modal interchange" a lot, but am not sure what it really means.

Judged from quoted half sentence, it seam like I decide, on my free will, to use melodic minor, in place of ordinary minor?
That way I get 6, as in dorian, but also M7, that goes well with dominant function chord, V of that minor, as in harmonic minor.
If I move up min 3rd, and finger mm from there, I get b5, b7 and some more, in reference to original root of the minor.

If I'm correct, where above is different from adaptation of blues scale to get those same notes, like I currently do, is that I could harmonize lines made of mm with stacked triads from mm, while if going from blues I'd have to search for apropriate out of scale extensions?
All that would be great thing if I could think like that. Unfortunately, I always think basic chord, then search for extensions, no mater how common or odd they may be.

So, am I correct in my uderstanding, if I say:
- Deciding to use different scale = modal interchange
- Using notes from that new scale for chords to a tune, and playing from there = change of reference (in regard to original scale)
?

What I see as a problem, I don't have both 5 and b7 in same scale. b7 is so common that lot of people incorporate it in their chords by deafult, so it'll most likely pop out and clash with that 6, unless I go from the 3rd up, but then I'd always have to force that b5 into blues. Or, I could stay on original root, but always add b7 and alternate it with 6, like R'n'R/Boogie Woogie? Actualy I do it already, but from a blues scale reference. Could a switching to mm reference, help my line playing cross from blues side to the jazz one, no matter what they're played over?

All this provided my initial judging was correct.

**hed_b94** · 03-23-2013, 02:59 PM

How do you think one should approach ear training in regard to jazz?
I've done some of the regular "classical" ear tranining - hearing intervals, triads with inversions and some harmonic movement (mostly diatonic) but obviously in jazz it's much more than that. How do we go beyond?

**Reg** · 03-24-2013, 04:05 PM

Hey...
So Vladan... usually there are more organized methods for choice of using Modal Interchange... but I'm OK with "on my free will".

So say... A nat. min. modal interchange to A dorian or as as you used A melodic minor.

Using note organization of Amm... the V chord is E7 with 9, 11 and b13. Ok to keep your A harmonic min V chord,
E7 with b9,11 and b13.

If you move up min 3rd and use Amm from there... would be bIIImaj7#5 with 9,#11 and 13. (Cmaj7#5 with 9, #11 and 13. b5 could be from #11... don't know where b7 comes from....

If your using Blue note references, which can be a organizational method of developing harmony... not clear of how your applying.

But since your real reference seems to be Blue notes... you need to become aware of all the possible chords which reflect that Blue Note reference. Chords built on any degree of any scale with blue notes added as method of developing harmonic organization.

Are the Blue note used as ornamentation... or are they used in an organizational method of developing Function.

You seem to have your harmonic system of organization... and then camouflage. Not right or wrong... just trying to help you understand relationships from references... which lead to different development... possibilities of developments.

Anyway... If I'm going in wrong direction, get me back on track.

Reg

Hey hed-b94...

It's the same process... you just need to add jazz references. Notes and intervals are the same, right. The difference is with what you hear them in reference to. With Jazz there is always... possibilities of in reference to.

What does that triad imply, or what could it imply. Voice leading and harmonic practice of traditional Maj/Min functional Harmony... has basic guidelines. Jazz also uses those as guidelines and references... but also use other harmonic systems of organization. Different rules for creating function or movement... and guidelines for resolution.

Short answer... become aware of standard jazz harmonic practice... with reference to standard traditional Maj/Min functional harmony practice... and also in reference to standard Jazz harmonic practices ... they're different.

Reg

**Vladan** · 03-24-2013, 05:44 PM

Thanks Reg,

I think this will prove helpfull. I still have to try it out, but one main idea I got from your post:

- Modal interchange is applied on tonic scale, but with dominant in mind. I always think from I or i-, while it seams I'd better think about V. Extensions I poke about were in regard to mm over i-. You pointed out process is actually about extensions to V of that i-. O.K.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To answer your questions:

b7 imention is b7 of minor chord I'd be playing mm from the b3 above.
Ex.: playing cmm over a-, ther's G in cmm which is b7 of A.

Problem with 5th I spoke about is also in regard of mm scale over original minor chord.
Ex.: ther's Eb note in cmm, while I need E. I amm over a-, I have E, but not G, but, I do have Gb and Ab.
Ab is good for E, while Gb is what I call 6 (of A). So each time I come to play Gb, ther's high propability it'll clash with ubiquitous 7 (G).

Further, looks like what I refer to as 6, is more correctly called 13.

Don't know if my reference are blue notes. As I said I always think from 1, but once uppon a time I realised b3 interval is essence of blues, so one could almost always go a b3 up from just about any "in" note, stronger in the better, and then to another "in" note and sound almost always good. I think of it as playing blues from any scale note. Something ike that. Then I found my way where to play so wanted b3 come under my fingers, but I do not search for blue notes, rather I do for 1 in apropriate place.

So, even if I wanted to, above written won't let me deny - you say: "own reference then camouflage", that's not what I call it, but I could, because it would be true. I'd not to loose it, as it's something similar to style, but to learn doing it proper way, too, as a backup.

**Reg** · 03-29-2013, 08:09 PM

I posted this on a different thread... It might be useful...

The reference fingerings are posted below...

Hey Jadarite...

why do you use that fingering for a maj scale... what's the reference, the next question would be what are your default fingerings for the same scale starting on each scale degree, same question, why those fingerings.

When you don't develop a base or default fingering system that covers the complete fret board for each scale... your going to have problems and have questions like you asked.

Even though I use that example I posted as my default fingering reference for maj scale and all degrees of... I use all kinds of different fingering for reasons....but those different fingerings still have reference to, and are based off my default fingerings.

What eventually happens... the fret board becomes grids or mechanical patterns which reflect what I choose. In your example of Abmaj or G#maj. When I hear or decide to use that harmonic reference, Abmaj... as I said my entire fret board becomes those fingering patterns... from my Example.

What is cool... if I choose to hear or add another harmonic influence... I just drop the new harmonic grid on top of the existing or starting grid. I can hear or physically see the relationships.

Example could be... I start with your Abmaj. which I choose to be Ionian, Then I decide to add Ab Lydian as my first relationship. I now hear and see the two patterns.
Now I decide to drop F Dorian... from the Ab Lydian relationship and from that F Dorian I drop F min pentatonics as the next relationship...

1)Abmaj Ionian
2)Abmaj Lydian...(modal interchange)
3)Fmin Dorian ... (Fdorian is function sub of Ab Lydian)
4)F min pentatonics...(different harmonic application of same notes)
5) add blue note application to Fmin pentatonics

So I used harmonic concepts to create applications to pull from for creating relationships and developing them...
Improvisation...

But I performed using very physical applications applied to my fret board... How I realize what I'm hearing or creating... how I finger what I hear.

Eventually the fingerings... the fret board becomes internalized, you think about it only if you choose to.

Basic maj scale fingerings from each scale degree...

Attached Images

Reg

**Vladan** · 03-29-2013, 08:25 PM

Example could be... I start with your Abmaj. which I choose to be Ionian, Then I decide to add Ab Lydian as my first relationship. I now hear and see the two patterns.
Now I decide to drop F Dorian... from the Ab Lydian relationship and from that F Dorian I drop F min pentatonics as the next relationship...

1)Abmaj Ionian
2)Abmaj Lydian...(modal interchange)
3)Fmin Dorian ... (Fdorian is function sub of Ab Lydian)
4)F min pentatonics...(different harmonic application of same notes)
5) add blue note application to Fmin pentatonics

Could this be it, a springboard example? I think I can find myself in this one.

**Reg** · 04-02-2013, 05:33 PM

I just got copy of one of my new tunes on coming CD......it not mastered yet, who knows when, but it's based on a tune I composed on this thread back when Fep,(Frank) and I were getting into compositional BS...
Titled appropriately "Side Steppin"

I don't even remember the session... I dig the piano solo.

Side Steppin mix.mp3

Reg

**Tom Painter** · 04-02-2013, 07:00 PM

Nice!

Reminds be of Kreisberg's twentyone a bit.

**JohnRoss** · 04-02-2013, 08:42 PM

Oooh, yes.

**Reg** · 04-03-2013, 11:39 AM

Thanks for listening... I have one more, a ballad I composed for this sax dude...Called, "In Search Of Blue". I guess I'm supposed to make comments for reference with mixing, any comments are welcome... beside put the tunes aside for a week or so ... then throw them away,

Reg

**Vladan** · 04-03-2013, 12:39 PM

Listening on headphones, comenting on In Search ... mix (no comments on music and playing).

Generally, I think it's good, sound is reckongnizable as Jazz.

Sax and guitar are Ok.

Dont like snare sound and rim sound, somehow they're not soft enough. Too natural in a way, while certainly EQed and compressed = it ended bit unnatural. Something like that.

Is this real piano, or synth? I can not decide.

Sometimes I fell like I'm inside drum kit, which is inside this piano?
Like there are some phase issues ie. microphones should have been further or closer appart, or better isolated from instrument to instrument, or everything's flanged, or chorussed a bit too much.

None of the observed issues has any influence on perception of music and performance ie. I don't give a **** about suchthings.

**Reg** · 04-03-2013, 08:03 PM

Thanks Vladan...

The piano was real... big and covered with insulated blankets... I'm sure it was a good grand.
As I remember we were all in booths... Pn in big room.

I thought the snare might be a bit bright... but I believe that is the effect the enginner is after. I also want to hear more Guitar...

Thanks for checking out. I'll pass on comments...

Reg

**Vladan** · 04-03-2013, 09:21 PM

Ah, blankets. The sound was right, but it lacked "noises", blankets explained it. Also means player can really control himself.
I don't know, that phasing thing, maybe that's just .mp3 playing games? Ther's this natural livenes to it, that's good thing, I think. Nothing fauveistic to it.