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Oy. That's not the only one either. Thanks for the feedback, fuzzthebee. I'll look at it tomorrow with fresh eyes.
Originally Posted by fuzzthebee
EDIT: Ok, I real quickly fixed that row, I think but didn't double check the rest. Maybe later. Let me know if anyone finds other mistakes. Thanks!Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-11-2017 at 12:31 PM.
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01-08-2017 08:27 PM
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Yes, in Ab row, except for the 1st one, all red dots are on Fs.
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Matt, something is not adding up for me, so let me explain how I see the table.
Basically I'm seeing a Bb Dominant Pentatonic. I don't see this as an "altered" pentatonic, but a garden variety Dominant Pentatonic- 1 2 3 5 b7.
Bb C D F Ab -
Now you could, I suppose re interpret it's 5 inversions (or modes) as:
Bb9
C7sus.b13
Dm7b5.b13 (D7alt - no 3rd?)
Fm13
Ab13b5
But you've missed the obvious, that like any Dominant scale or arp, these same notes are also it's TT sub, i.e.:
E7alt - b5 #5 b7 b9 3 !!!
Sure, no root, but who uses a root in these chords (when comping or soloing)?
The weird thing is that you (Reg?) are hearing this pitch collection as though it's primarily an Ab7#11 and it's TT sub D7 alt.
I suppose it will work (haven't taken it for a spin yet), but I'm very curious why it's not more obviously interpreted as Bb9 / E7alt ??Last edited by princeplanet; 01-09-2017 at 10:20 AM.
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Sure. The fewer pitches present the more options/ambiguity, and by nature, melodic minor is already ambiguous. Labeling anything associated with melodic minor or its modes can get you into semantics chicken/egg stuff, and here you've got ambiguous on top of ambiguous. Originally Posted by princeplanet
I'm just using them in the context that reg was talking about. He labeled them more in the way that he actually applies them I guess. Diatonic Pentatonics can be superimposed in similar ways "inside". Once you start going more outside, the options are limitless.
Limit things more to three or four notes sets and you get even more of that kind of flexibility. Anyway, thanks for sharing. I'm not really an expert on any of this.
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By the way, reg does point out in his post on this that there are "other ways" as well. ......Other ways of boiling down altered to pentatonic I suppose, but also, other ways of applying this one as an altered scale ?
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But the way I use this pentatonic is far less ambiguous, as a straight Dom pent, and its TT sub. MM has never entered into it for me. Interpreting this simple pitch collection as a derivative of MM seems unnecessarily complicated. Maybe Reg can elucidate? Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
I will say that the A7#11 / D7alt interpretation is something I would never have thought of myself, so I thank you guys for that one! Although, not sure if I'll use it much.....
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There's always the "next" level ... Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
But really, for journeymen like ourselves, how many ways of rejigging this do we really need right now? These are getting into very advanced concepts. I already have enough ways of finding interesting PC's for Alt Doms, I need to spend more time turning those into music!
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Matt thanks for all you do...
So it's not that complicated....most are aware and comfortable playing and using typ. Pentatonics.
I'll use Gmin pentatonic pattern or scale as starting reference, G, Bb, C, D, F, G.
I always think and use two octaves in position as reference... that's generally the best approach when playing guitar.
So take that Gmin pentatonic pattern in 3rd position as pattern # 1, the rest, patterns 2,3,4 and 5 starting on each note and moving up the neck are the basic reference.
All that is done is... taking that first Gmin pattern... change the "F" or the 7th to "E" the 6th. And the other patterns starting on each scale degree will also change.
So now you have a different pentatonic, ( 5 note scale pattern), to use as a reference and create new relationship and develop those relationships.
In matt's example ... the scale starts on pattern # 2... 3,4,5 and ends on #1.
That's it, the basic reference.... how you use this pattern to create relatinships.... IS NOT THAT SIMPLE, there are many possible relationships etc... Access to melodic minor is one, and organized use of Blue Notes is another.
This is where the use of multiple harmonic concepts can be used. Having more that one set of harmonic guidelines being used simultaneously.
An example could be using my expanded diatonic relationships approach... which is just using up and down diatonic 3rd relationships.
Vanilla example... Cmaj, (ionian) is reference, down a diatonic 3rd to the relative Minor or Amin is one relationship and the other is up diatonic 3rd to Emin. is the other.
I generally always use Modal concepts and Modal Interchange along with this approach. ( expanded diatonic relationships)
That opens harmonic doors for MM and Blue Notes.
You generally need to also be aware of Tonal reference...Tonal Targets. Which have big or small moments.
It starts to get complicated.... But generally if one is aware of FORM... the spatial organization of music, and how to organize FORM with reference to how a tune is organized... and how you want to create and develop harmonic relationships when performing or arranging a tune, well generally the results work.
The point of using altered Pentatonics is just one possible relationship.
For example... if playing over Gmin7 to C7. I might add use of two more notes to the Gmin pattern.
From Basic pentatonic pattern,
G, Bb, C, D, F to
G, Bb, C, D, E, alt. pent. now add, D# and F, for typ. Blue Note use. G,Bb,C,C#,D,E,F
Or add F# and either A or C#...depending how you want to develop a relationship using Melodic Minor.
These are pretty standard approaches.... but if you don't understand how to create relationships and develop them from references.... how to develop improv or solos. (Organized use of melodic, harmonic and rhythmic applications when performing), not memorized performances etc... anyway, these approaches are not how to organize your playing... using FORM , these approaches are for possible relationships within FORM.
Again the basic patteren is just an altered Pentatonic.... in the example above replacing the b7 with 6th. No reference to the magical 6th chord. Although that relationship could be developed etc...
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I get how the Dom Pentatonic is created, but don't see it as altering a standard minor pentatonic, instead I prefer to view it as adding a 2nd to a basic Dom 7 arp.
The MM relationship is something I'll give some thought to, and am realising that even though you don't need to think of MM to derive the scales we're talking about here, it might be useful to consider MM as a possible original source in order to flesh out the pentatonic with more notes from MM. I'll put that one on the back burner, but can you answer my question from my post above - If we have Bb C D F Ab as the pentatonic, isn't this basically a Bb9 pentatonic as well as it's TT sub, E7alt (rootless)?
BTW, I actually prefer to alter pents differently, so that I'd swap the root for the 6th to change Bb C D F Ab into
C D F G Ab. (really Dm7b5.11). I just like the semitone in there. Again, this PC gets used for Dom, m7b5 as well as m6, so most of the food groups...
The other thing I like to do is add a note to a dim7 arp, so to B D F Ab ( rootless Bb7b9) add any vote except A nat. The resulting "pentatonics" get respelled at m3rd position shifts, so you get, say, Bb7b9, Bb7b9#9,Bb7b9#11, Bb13b9 ad the other set Bb7b9nat9, Bb7b9nat11, Bb7b9b13, etc. I really like the sound of these and try to even use them over Alt chords even though there's always a nat 5th. Playing Bb7b9b13 or Bb7b9#11 sound just as useful against alt chords (to me) as the rootless E7alt pent from above. I mention this in another thread, so sorry to those that read it there as well.....
Happy to hear your thoughts on these Reg.
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I'm not sure you use term "altered" to address same thing. Princeplanet is talking about pentatonics suited to play over alt. dom. chords, while Reg seems to be talking about making "new" set of scales, suitable for whatever, by modifying/ altering some basic set. What you set as "basic" seem to be up to personal preference, but still firmly based in theory and practice. You chose a valid starting point, then alter it.
VladanMovies BlogSpotLast edited by Vladan; 01-09-2017 at 02:19 PM.
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Thanks for posting, Reg. Hope to dig in more heavily into all of your videos etc. when my life slows down slightly. Originally Posted by Reg
I've always been interested in your concept of using blue notes to "organize harmonic references" and using melodic minor to organize blue note playing. Never really heard anyone talk much about it besides you. If you have an existing video that you know of that kind of zeros in on some of those, that would be great.
Hope all is well with you and yours.
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Yea... the use of the word Altered is not from altered scale or from Melodic Min, thanks Vladan.
Prince anything can work in some contexts etc...
If you want to really understand and hear... arrange for a big band or any context where you actually need to have all notes be accountable, from some type of organize. More than a one time application or school of embellishment. Not that it really matters... but if we were on a gig and I heard you mixing references during your solo.... or comping.... it might be difficult to understand and be able to have music lock. Not that it would be right or wrong, good or bad... but it would become very vanilla as far as harmonic tonal reference. Because of lack of harmonic reference, again not good or bad...
You can always rhythmically and spatially through the use of form.... or pedal and ostinado organization create harmonic organization... but that gets old quick etc... more from the rock school of jazz, I was there in the 60's and 70's.
I do get your Dominant organization, and use all the time... I just don't always relate everything to traditional functional harmony. Again not that it doesn't work well. Any good player can make almost anything work and sound cool, even fresh etc... but it gets old on gigs, become work etc...
You obviously must have your technical skills together, because it's difficult to even have this conversation without the performance skills.
I think I'm around for a while... I'll post vids. try and show examples etc...
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Hey ,Reg. trying to nail down this notion of "mixing references during your solo...." that you're talking about above. Originally Posted by Reg
Are you talking about an overall harmonic reference for the entire form there? Or are you talking about smaller specific tonal targets within the form, which you would then use a similar harmonic devices to approach on each?
I seem to recall hearing you talk about this in a video very long time ago. Maybe it was that you were using a dominant reference against a chord (playing off it's V7) and then repeating the same kind of pattern on another chord, using it as kind of a harmonic motif? Anyway, long time ago....
Maybe a specific example of what you're talking about NOT doing would be helpful. Thanks.
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Hi Reg,
Much appreciated! I gotta ask you a question because there's just so so much for me to learn and I know there really isn't any shortcuts to speak of but I just gotta know. Did you gain most of your experience from hearing and playing songs or reading music and playing? Thanks again, phenomenal info! I gotta go through this tread again, I just wanna make sure I got all the pdf's I need!
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Hey Matt... It's not that complicated, really. I.m a very simple and logical musician.
References...harmonic reference, begins with the basic tune. You need a basic reference... the chart, the style, the arrangement or even the verbal comments up front... hey lets play Four on Six, same form with a Cascara 2-3 clave feel.
So that would be my basic tonal, harmonic, style and feel reference. I'm using the tune and form, and changing the feel.
The basic harmonic references of the tune are already typical after 60's Jazz harmonic organization. Use of modal organization with MM and blue notes. The new feel, an afro-cuban rhythmic pattern with a clave... generally implies harmonic patterns also, a strong/ weak function or movement. Example would be the Gmin7 would become G-7 to G-6 or simillar montuno etc..
So the basic harmonic reference of the tune implies a basic strong / weak feel. When I use Tonal Targets or begin to create relationships... both macro and micro etc... I would keep that basic organization as my reference.
If I began to use the simple altered pentatonic patterns we're talking about, and I also use different modal, ( MM and Blue Notes), applications to create or develop those relationship, The basic macro harmonic reference would be reflected in any micro harmonic relationships I develop.
This is a very basic example... what most would simple be able to feel, naturally play etc... At least, that's what you should be doing.
As I've said before... some do this from memorization, years of practice until one can simply feel etc... or you can understand what your trying to do. Both approaches work.
An example of what generally doesn't work... is playing whatever one knows without organization when using. There are obviously many levels of organization. If you want your music to lock and feel natural and balanced etc... the more levels of organization you work with... the better the results.
Personally when I generally hear mixed uses of harmonic references. Generally from melodically organized embellishment approaches without harmonic organization...it limits playing options for rhythmic sections. Rhythmic begins to take over.
? Fathand... I've performed live since I was in elementary school, I'm from the stone age. I'm also over educated, back in the late 70's and 80's composed and arranged... yada yada. I had chops back in the late 60's and was a guitarist who could sightread and thought I understood music. All of which means nothing. I can say when I'm in a rhythm section... we cover. The key word there was WE.
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I'm assuming this to be more "outside" harmonically on the weak side of the pattern? Originally Posted by Reg
Okay. I almost get some of this now I think. Melodic embellishments could be very generally "chromatic" or just using melodic devices which kind of work on their own, as opposed to using chromatics from specific pitch collections like melodic minor, leaving less for the rhythm section to actually do in specifically supporting the harmony? Originally Posted by Reg
Anyway, I had done a good bit with VERY basic melodic devices....Enclosures and chromatic targeting patterns etc. BEFORE finding your video on targeting with specific chords/notes sets. You're idea: that what seemed, to me, to be "random" - or at the very least, purely melodic - chromatic patterns were somehow "implying" something about the harmony...warped me out to no end. At the very least, it seemed "next level".
Far from being THAT, I was very surprised to find out how much it actually simplified things, even at my intermediate level. The random hit/miss chromatic exploration was much more tedious.
Probably that ONE thing, along with your basic harmonic rhythm strong/weak thinking, have had a more profound impact on my enjoyment of music, all styles than just about anything. So, thank you. I'm very grateful.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-10-2017 at 01:15 PM.
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Mat, could you please share some of your findings, like which enclosures and chromatic approaches imply what in regard to harmony and how to use them?
I think you are more into solo playing than being part of a rhythm section, so it is not what I'd exacrly copy and learn,
but more of another lateral way I could add to my random approach.
VladanMovies BlogSpot
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Yeah, a vanilla enclosure for G would be to play something like F#-A-G (resolving G for the tonic pitch of that tonic chord). Most people address this, at least in the beginning for beginning students, melodically, from the standpoint of diatonic upper and lower neighbors. F# is the lower neighbor and A is the upper neighbor to G. Do the same with the third, B. Upper neighbor is C, and lower neighbor is A. All very vanilla and diatonic, but it's where you start. Anyway, reg outlined in his video on this that basically those upper and lower neighbors are outlining harmony, specifically D7.
More common practice , whether you're looking at is simply melodically or otherwise, is to make the lower neighbor of B chromatic =A#. Now you are using parallel harmonic minor reference ( as reg says... whether you intend to or not) and also " opening doors for access to melodic minor etc.". :-)
Anyway, the real deal is that D7 is great to use to target G , Regardless of whether it actually encloses specific notes or approaches another way. Melodic instruments like horns etc. learn all of this in a purely melodic way mostly, at least in the beginning , with upper and lower neighbors being talked about relative to KEY rather than with specific chords referenced.
The very cool part of this is that as guitarists - learning all of this on a pretty difficult instrument - this is actually a shortcut to what is otherwise some melodic slogging. Many of us who would have to really work out melodic targeting relative to key , with a lot more mental effort , can pretty simply use D7 or D7 alt to target G. I mean, most of us know more arpeggios than we do melodic targeting patterns, right?. And you don't have to do as much trial and error with "which chromatic notes work?" in targeting. If it works harmonically it also works melodically.
Anyway, with D7 altered targeting G, things like an Ebm-(maj7) are cool. You can then use that same type of approach with E minor, down the third, or B minor, upper third. Those are the extended diatonic references he's always talking about. Gives you different pitch collections from which to pull approach tones.
Anyway, see if you can find Reg's video on targeting. I'll see if I can find it later. Working on a car today.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-10-2017 at 10:25 PM.
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I think that's the one. Anyway, it's been a long time. Different than I remember. Nothing like my examples. Much hipper . Need to recheck this myself later. Cool stuff.
Ha. He says, " I mean if you're approaching something usually it comes from somewhere else ( Like an approach chord/harmony)", but again, I've never really heard anyone else talk about it that way. :-)Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-10-2017 at 04:33 PM.
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Hipper, or not, I was interested in your ways of doing it, as opposed to Reg's (not that I'm not interested in those, but on this occasion ...), so I thank you for your answer in previous post.
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The comment at 6:10 or so, after just burning....."just a lot of blues licks. Nothing. Real simple stuff". mmmkay :-)
"Cruising through bebop". :-)
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That's what I like about broader concepts like this, which can be used at different levels - hipper or more entry level. Honestly, most of my musical life is spent outside of jazz and the broader concepts are still applicable, just applied in different ways. Originally Posted by Vladan
Lately, I play some bluegrass with my son, who plays banjo. Anyway, "IV7 of the chord of the moment" seems to work really well for targeting cowboy chords in blue grass, as just one approach. I don't really even know that that's a "thing" in the style. It's just what I hear as a possibility, and it strikes me as funny that I sort of got that approach to targeting cheesy harmony from this other context, in jazz.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-10-2017 at 11:05 PM.
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Phenomenal playing and lesson, free ideas and a free show, great forum to be a part of even though I'm so far behind some of you'se it ain't funny. Still a blast to watch! Much appreciation super Reg!!
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I'm such a lousy musician I don't dare say any harmony is cheesy. They are all too difficult for me to grasp. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Regarding Reg's terminology, when it comes to regular theory, it's over my head, M7#5b13, I mean I know how to make chords and what extensions mean, but still am not comfortable with regular subs first level off plain major scale. I've never played MM in my life, except by accident when my ear pulled me there ...
On the other hand, when he speaks about basic reference, altered references, style influencing harmony, using diminished to camouflage, making clear to others and being certain what is played as opposed to leaving things overly open, not changing references during tune or at least during solo ...
...I think I understand those pretty good. I won't say I have my own terminology as developed, but I surely came to almost identical things and terms on my own ...
So not to derail his great thread any more, back to office business, then to shredding that 2 octaves G major in position, and 2.5, and 2.75, somewhat out of position ...Last edited by Vladan; 01-11-2017 at 09:49 AM.
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Cool. Have you checked out the "what's new" comping video of reg's? It's a very good entry-level melodic minor voicings. They're all basic dominant approaches using altered, or Lydian nat 2 for ii-7b5. Anyway, I think it's a great place to start for several reasons: first, it's comping using a very small handful of melodic minor voicings. Also he reuses the voicings/patterns in several different contexts. Basically the same patterns, whether it's altered or Lydian nat 5. Originally Posted by Vladan
The other thing is that it's not really single note stuff. It's all comping. Really, you can learn five or six voicings from melodic minor and be able to play those approaches. Maybe give some context to later developing single note, or at least being able to see it other videos.
Of course, it's very fast, depending on your skill level, but I transcribed most of it with chord grids in the thread linked below. YouTube speed control functions should solve any problems with speed. It's the kind of thing that, once learned, will make a lot of his other videos easier to view and understand. I think that "what's new" video is a great gateway drug into some of the more "hard to see" things he does.May 2016 - What's NewLast edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-11-2017 at 11:31 AM.
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