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just wondering how everyone organizes the fretboard in their minds. do you use the fingerings for the modes? one octave scales? arps? caged system? stuff like that.
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10-25-2008 12:57 PM
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This is a very good question. The weird thing about it is that I honestly don't remember how I organized my own fingerboard in the first place. It's become second nature so I don't have to think about what I'm doing. I usually try to work out of the middle of the fretboard. That way I have the ability to go in both directions if I need to, not just up the board. I don't know if that's what you're looking for but that's all I have at this time. Sorry.
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I have combined three visualizations of the fret board.
First is basically the five positions based on the CAGED system for single line solos.
For chord melody I use a combination of Bucky Pizarelli's approach and Mickey Baker's approach. This has resulted in my own hybrid visualization that allows the use of three related shell chords for every basic chord in a progression. i.e, for GMaj7 I see GMaj7, B-7 and D6 shapes. (There is a similar visualization for Minor and Dominant chords) Using these three choices for each chord and types organizes the fret board in a nice easy to visual matrix that adapts very nicely to chord melody improvization.
Once I map out the tune in this method I then add outside notes and extensions to create a nice sound pallette, at least for my style of playing.
After re-reading this it sound way more complicated than it actually is. If you are interested I can expand a bit more.
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i would love to hear more about this, especially as it relates to chord melody playing
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yeah Jazzaluk, I'd love for you to expand on this as I'm always looking for better ways to "see" the whole neck!!
Thanks Sailor
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Count me in also. Thanks. Where can I find the Bucky Pizzarelli approach? Thanks in advance.
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For me, there are a variety of things. First, most of us had a CAGED education, though a decent way to start, pretty limiting, especially for jazzers. I think across the fretboard, so circle of 4ths. Easy to name the notes across, I just have to think of the circle. Obviously the G to B string is a major 3rd apart, but simple to make that adjustment.
Vertically I think of octave shapes. For instance, I can see all the C notes on the fretboard without looking at my guitar. From there, it is easy to see triads and their inversions. Dunno if that is helpful or not, but that is how I organize the fretboard.
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no this is exactly what im looking for thanks.
Originally Posted by derek
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Bucky has three books that I know of. The one I am referring to is called "The Creative Guitarist". I picked it up years ago so I don't know if it is still in print. Originally Posted by hot ford coupe
Count me in also. Thanks. Where can I find the Bucky Pizzarelli approach? Thanks in advance.
I will try to introduce this concept in stages if I can get it organized. It is a great way to map out tunes but it is a visualization tool only that serves to sketch out a chord melody or progressions... you still have to add or alter the chords to create voice leading and smooth out some edges. As always, your ear will tell you if the choices are correct.
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One important aspect of how I've learnt the fingerboard is through connecting unknown harmonic material to things I already know. There are far too many things to remember without the relationships. These I then locate using 2 main concepts of fingerboard geography
1. position- 5 frets w/ 2 octaves and a major 3rd of range and 1 unison
(ex. playing full range 7th chord arpeggios in all keys from the lowest chord tone to the highest available in the position)
2. string groups- keeping track of how many notes fall on each string and then maintaining it (ex. playing all 7 note one octave modes fingered across any 3 consecutive strings w/ 2 notes on the lowest string and 3 notes each on the two upper ones )
Working within these strict geographical limitations will yield a few less than ideal fingerings but has been very instructive in learning the neck.
Another thing is I view the guitar as 6 independent instruments (each string)
Each string alone is very simple with the open string being the lowest note and progressing in half steps until the highest fret. Any interval will always be the same number of frets apart. (ex. The open string and the 12th fret is an octave and so is fret #1 and 13 or 3 and 15 etc.) Life begins to get more challenging when we try to coordinate the 6 instruments given the almost symmetrical tuning of the guitar but that one different tuning interval between the G and B strings somewhere between doubles and triples the number of shapes required to play the same intervals. Stanley Jordan I know chooses to opt out of this tuning system and tunes in all 4ths to streamline his shape learning curve.
Knowing all locations of the same note (my 20 fret guitar has 11 G notes) and playing the same material at all unison and octave locations possible is an exercise I worked on until it became 2nd nature including voicings, scales, arpeggios or entire songs (Ex. see pdf)
Also check out this Michael Manring article. He is of course a 4 string bassist but the concepts are very transferable.
The International Institute Of Bassists | Bass Lessons Online - Michael Manring
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Since CAGED is the basis of my organization, I'm real curious about how it is 'pretty limiting'. Could you eloborate as I'd like to discuss. Originally Posted by derek
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Sure. First, I think CAGED is great for the vast majority of players. What it does is familiarize you with 5 regions of the fretboard. Things it doesn't do for you is inversions of extended chords, triads and their inversions, alterations, chord partials like shell voicings, etc. Though you don't have to stick with barres, CAGED certainly favors the barre chord. I try not to play barres very much. Originally Posted by fep
Seeing the fretboard across the strings is fine, but being able to play up and down the whole board on just one or two strings, and connecting chords in chord scales is important also. How I was taught CAGED, and the stuff I have seen written on it doesn't cover these sorts of things. Does that make sense? Has your experience with CAGED differed?
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this makes sense to me and is why i have avoided the caged method. im looking for a completely flexible but still functional method, and i think im getting close to it just by taking pieces from others and combining them with what works for me. maybe in a few weeks/months ill post what my general system has evolved into Originally Posted by derek
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Thanks. I'll do a few searches and see what I can find. I found the Van Eps series and the Johnny Smith book. Originally Posted by Jazzaluk
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For what it's worth, as a classical performer, I have played a lot of Bach Lute and Cello works, particularly the preludes and fugues, and have found this to be an excellent way to learn the fretboard. Even for flatpicking there is a wealth of knowledge to be had in playing through the Bach works. When you listen to players like Lenny and hear what he could do with Bach you can see the possibilities. I hope this is not too much off topic.
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Hi Derek, Originally Posted by derek
The way I was taught the CAGED system addresses all of what you just mentioned. My teacher put it this way, those five 'cowboy' chords can be used as the building block for all chords and scales over the entire neck. He didn't suggest that you only play the 'cowboy' (his term) form of the chords though, just use them as the building blocks.
I'll explain this further in a seperate thread... it may take me a day or two though.
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I don't doubt you at all, but I have never seen in print or heard of someone using the CAGED system to that extent. If so, I would assume your teacher has done a really good job of integrating CAGED with other ideas to make it more seamless. Sounds like a good teacher. Originally Posted by fep
I would be very curious to see his material and hear the sequence he takes you thru past the 5 barred shapes and their accompanying major and minor scale shapes. This is where most CAGED methods typically end.
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For me the gretest feature of caged system is being able to visualize chord shapes and find chord tones quickly.
When we are doing any position, by finding where the root is, we know immediatelly what is the form we are using. For instance take this D 13 b9 (dominant) chord:
[chord]
||---|---|---|---|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[/chord]
For me it, it was easier to memorize this chord by the following procedure:
D chord in C form
[chord]
||---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-1-|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-1-|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-1-|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[/chord]
Now, D7
[chord]
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[/chord]
D 7 b9
[chord]
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[/chord]
D13 b9
[chord]
||---|---|---|---|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[/chord]
This is pretty dificult, and probably we will prefer an inversion (bassist will play the root), so the final shape:
[chord]
||---|---|---|---|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[/chord]
So, when I think of this chord, I imagine the C form on the 3rd position, and I immediatelly know where is the 7th, the 3rd, the b9 and the 13th.
But probably "fep" will elaborate on this on his CAGED thread...
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thats basically what i used to do with the caged system. but i found it is too many steps and too much memorized information to work for me.
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Attached is a picto of the chord shapes I borrowed from Bucky and adapted to mapping out chord melodies. Originally Posted by hot ford coupe
Count me in also. Thanks. Where can I find the Bucky Pizzarelli approach? Thanks in advance.
The shapes produce a melody note on the upper voice. The trick is to move between shapes to link chords in a progression. Notice how there is no 5th in the chord shapes. There is a reason for this.
I travel alot..so I will add another piece when I'm home and show how I apply them to a musical example.
In the mean time the shapes shoud be learned on the two remaining string sets. (bass note on the 6th and 5th string)Last edited by Jazzaluk; 10-31-2008 at 04:00 PM.
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am i reading those incorrectly, or are some of those chord shapes flat out wrong?
the C7/B and the C7 in the dominant chord chord examples were the first two i caught that are not correct...
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Sorry should be C7/Bb and the B should be a Bb on the C7...cut and paste error,,,I'll correct the attachment..thanks Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Last edited by Jazzaluk; 10-31-2008 at 04:01 PM.
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I use the CAGED system and pentatonic scale shapes as landmarks to everything else. I use the pents because unlike other many other scales, they have very easily visualized, distinct box-like shapes to them. Plus, if I ever get lost while playing other arps, scales, and intervals, I can always default to pents and get back on track. For example, if I were playing over Am7 at the fifth fret, I might think "E shape, first position minor pentatonic" to pin down my mental map, then from that, I visualize the b5, b9, b6, etc. sitting inside that frame and I just select those notes depending on how I want my phrase to sound. I also use this system to indentify where to start and end certain standard licks/phrases that I use frequently. If I were to try to think a bunch of individual scale patterns while I was playing, I'd go crazy at this stage, so I just identify where I want to play using CAGED/Pent frames, then I know the rest of the notes available because I just know where those intervals are in the frame and more importantly, how they are going to sound if I hit them.
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Could you elaborate a bit? On the example you gave, could you specify: Originally Posted by Goofsus4
if I were playing over Am7 at the fifth fret, I might think "E shape, first position minor pentatonic"
with a scale map maybe?
Thanks
Joao
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Hey..Sailor, HRF and Holmes M...are you guys still interested in this approach? I think its an elequent concept, but it can get rather intricate so it may not be something for this thread. Originally Posted by Jazzaluk
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